How long do silver gelatin prints last?

[cotdt]

I love the results I'm getting on them, and at how cheap they are. But how long do they last?

[Kirk Gittings]

Depends on if they are archivally processed and stored or framed properly. There are many factors that effect the longevity of silver prints.

[cotdt]

Depends on if they are archivally processed and stored or framed properly. There are many factors that effect the longevity of silver prints.

they are not being framed at all but stored in my picture box. i washed them in water but they smell like my fixer. are they going to last?

[Jim MacKenzie]

How long did you wash them?

RC or fibre paper?

[cotdt]

How long did you wash them?

RC or fibre paper?

I do use fiber paper sometimes but mostly I use RC paper because the results look the same to me, and RC paper doesn't curl. I washed them for 10 seconds. They smell like fixer. Would this affect the longevitability of my prints?

[Mark Woods]

I would read the instructions on the sheet that comes in the box with the paper. There are recommended fixing and washing times. I think you'll discover that you should rewash all of your photos for the recommended time.

[MIke Sherck]

Ten seconds isn't a wash, it's barely a rinse. The data sheet that came with your paper should give a recommendation, times both with and without a wash aide of some sort.

Immersion in a wash aide will reduce wash times, but the instructions on the bottle are rather optimistic in my opinon. There are many factors involved, including the temperature and quality of the wash water. For example, washing at 70 degrees F. will go faster than wasing at 68 deg. F., but washing at 80 deg. F. or higher may cause the emusion to soften, increasing risk of scratching.

It's best to test for results. There's a product called Hypo Check which comes in a small bottle; you put a drop on your supposedly washed print or film and it tells you whether the hypo is actually washed out of it or not.

In my experience, Kodak has in the past (like, when they made paper!) recommended four minutes wash for RC paper, after 30 seconds or a minute in hypo-clear. Here's my process for RC paper (this process tests to very low residual levels of hypo, according to my Hypo Test bottle:)

After fixing, rinse for 30 seconds in running water at 68 deg. F., then immerse in hypo clear for 30 seconds with continuous agitation. Next comes a wash for six minutes and I usually test one sheet every couple of weeks, just to verify that it's clear. Then, hang to dry.

Fiber paper doesn't have the plastic coating RC paper has and more fixer soaks into the paper, so it needs a longer wash. I rinse for a minute, hypo-clear for a minute, then wash for 30 minutes at 70 deg. F. in running water.

There are variations: you can, for example, wash in still water with appropriate changes of water at various intervals. There's lots of information both on this site and on the web in general. Good luck!

Mike

[cotdt]

Ten seconds isn't a wash, it's barely a rinse.

Thanks for the advice, I'll rewash all my prints. Is tap water OK?



Fiber paper doesn't have the plastic coating RC paper has and more fixer soaks into the paper, so it needs a longer wash.


That's interesting. Shouldn't RC paper outlast fiber paper since it has a plastic coating? In fiber paper, there is no coating so wouldn't the silver particles rust more easily?

[roteague]

I've got some 20+ year old Cibachromes, dry mounted, hanging on my wall. They have lasted quite well, no issues or problems.

[Deane Johnson]

are they going to last?
You can be certain they are not going to last based on your present washing techniques. Follow the manufacturers recommendations and they should outlast you.

I don't know much about the longevity of resin coated paper, but I would expect properly processed fiber based prints to last several hundred years or more.

[cotdt]

You can be certain they are not going to last based on your present washing techniques. Follow the manufacturers recommendations and they should outlast you.

I don't know much about the longevity of resin coated paper, but I would expect properly processed fiber based prints to last several hundred years or more.

wouldn't the silver rust over time in fiber paper? i don't want my prints to rust, no, i want my prints to last at least 500 years. we have family pictures on silver gelatin that is over 100 years old and looks great, so i want mine to last too. i must outdo my ancestors.

[mattpallante]

Neil Young said: "Rust never sleeps." So be wary. I read "The Print," by Ansel Adams, but that was a long time ago. Go on Ilfords website and you should find several different workflows, depending on materials and techniques.:

[Deane Johnson]

wouldn't the silver rust over time in fiber paper? i don't want my prints to rust, no, i want my prints to last at least 500 years. we have family pictures on silver gelatin that is over 100 years old and looks great, so i want mine to last too. i must outdo my ancestors.
I'm not an expert on silver, but I don't believe it rusts. In my 40 years of working with fiber based papers, that's something I've never heard mentioned before. I believe you also want to look into selenium toning for greater longevity. Ansel was the big proponent of toning, and in addition to enriching the blacks, I believe it has preservation qualities.

Frankly, it's now been a few years since I printed, so I'm not up to date on the current thinking

[David Karp]

Troll?

[Bruce Watson]

I've got some 20+ year old Cibachromes, dry mounted, hanging on my wall. They have lasted quite well, no issues or problems.

I hate to say it, but Cibachrome prints aren't silver gelatin. The print's image is formed from dyes, not metallic silver. All the silver is (supposed to be) removed during processing. This is true of the somewhat broader category of C-prints in general, including RA-4 process B&W prints even if printed on monochrome paper.

That said, I too have some 25 year old Cibachrome prints framed and hanging that look like they came out of the processor yesterday. I'm not saying it's not good stuff. I'm just clarifying a minor point...

[Deane Johnson]

Troll?

What does this mean?

[domenico Foschi]

Troll?

Mhmm...

[roteague]

I hate to say it, but Cibachrome prints aren't silver gelatin. The print's image is formed from dyes, not metallic silver. All the silver is (supposed to be) removed during processing.

What you say is true .... however, since I don't print B&W that was the closest I could get to answering the question. :D

[Bruce Watson]

wouldn't the silver rust over time in fiber paper? i don't want my prints to rust, no, i want my prints to last at least 500 years. we have family pictures on silver gelatin that is over 100 years old and looks great, so i want mine to last too. i must outdo my ancestors.

1) Silver won't rust -- rust is iron oxide. There is likely little iron in your print, but if you see reddish stains over time you'll know what it is.

2) While silver gelatin photo papers were available from around 1880, they didn't really take off until around 1910 or a little later. This is because prior to that most prints were contact prints made from glass plate negatives. That is, there was little demand for enlarging, where the considerably more sensitive silver halide papers offer performance that wasn't available anywhere else at the time. What I'm saying is, there's good odds that the print from the 190x time frame is actually a platinum print contact printed from a glass plate negative. Especially if it's a portrait -- platinum did and still does make for an excellent portrait paper.

Silver gelatin enlarging papers really had to wait for roll film to catch on, and roll film caught on with the of amateurs of the time (professionals were using glass plates still). The smaller roll film negatives produced prints that were too small when contact printed, thus the desire for enlarging, thus the need for faster emulsions, thus the need for silver gelatin papers. This is sort of rare case where the amateurs led the professionals IMHO.

3) Please, for the rest of us, learn to use your "shift" key. It's a lot easier to read if you'll just make that little bit of effort to follow standard capitalizations. Sorry, getting cranky at the end of a long week.

[Rob Champagne]

Does silver rust? :D Thanks, I needed that.

I think we can trust that an improperly washed print will have a shorter life span than one that is washed and cleared of fixer. Also consider the possibility of small children handling an improperly washed print, and then later rubbing fixer in their eyes. Wash your prints thoroughly. Think safety.

If you're going to let small children play with your prints, the length of the wash becomes irrelevant. Do you supply crayons to draw on them as well? :D

[Darren Kruger]

wouldn't the silver rust over time in fiber paper?


I believe silver will tarnish the same on RC or fiber paper. The silver is in the gelatin coating on top of the paper and not in the paper itself.

From what I remember, selenium toning puts a thin layer of selenium on top of the silver in a print protecting it from the environment. The selenium doesn't protect the paper.

-Darren

[PViapiano]

Wash RC for at least 5 minutes...the package will tell you.

And don't use hot water, just cold tap water (thereabouts 65-68 degrees F)...one fellow used hot water, just like he was going to wash dishes, and wrecked the emulsion. Same with film, no hot water washes...

[cotdt]

1) Silver won't rust -- rust is iron oxide. There is likely little iron in your print, but if you see reddish stains over time you'll know what it is.

but i've seen silver coins that are tarnished and yucky brown. isn't it similar to rust? would it be better to use gold toner as gold does not tarnish?



2) While silver gelatin photo papers were available from around 1880, they didn't really take off until around 1910 or a little later. This is because prior to that most prints were contact prints made from glass plate negatives. That is, there was little demand for enlarging, where the considerably more sensitive silver halide papers offer performance that wasn't available anywhere else at the time. What I'm saying is, there's good odds that the print from the 190x time frame is actually a platinum print contact printed from a glass plate negative. Especially if it's a portrait -- platinum did and still does make for an excellent portrait paper.

Cool! Platinum prints sound interesting, maybe the old family portrait is a platinum. How do I tell?



3) Please, for the rest of us, learn to use your "shift" key. It's a lot easier to read if you'll just make that little bit of effort to follow standard capitalizations. Sorry, getting cranky at the end of a long week.

Sorry, young people like myself have these lazy habits.

[cotdt]

I believe silver will tarnish the same on RC or fiber paper. The silver is in the gelatin coating on top of the paper and not in the paper itself.

From what I remember, selenium toning puts a thin layer of selenium on top of the silver in a print protecting it from the environment. The selenium doesn't protect the paper.


I don't like how Selenium toning changes the original contast. Wouldn't gold toning be better?

[Nathan Potter]

Metallic silver left in the emulsion of printing papers after processing chemically degrades in the presence of sulfer to silver sulfide. For print longevity store unmounted prints in archival storage containers that are manufactured with acid free materials. Mounted prints must be affixed using archival adhesive on archival mounting board. As mentioned above wash prints per processing instructions - I use 10 minutes with filtered water at 68 degrees F. Use hypo clearing agent for 2 minutes as a routine. Finally use selenium of gold toning for extended permanence if you really want longevity - and you'll have to put up with the toning cast. If you really want permanence learn the platinnum/palladium process. And if you are a fanatic store your prints in airtight containers with an argon purge.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

[David A. Goldfarb]

Fading example: Here is a 100 year old photograph from my collection. Someday I expect the photograph to vanish completely.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2037/2300644117_04653461d1_o.jpg

Cards like that produced between about 1860 and 1900 are often albumen prints, so they have their own special issues. Albumen is much more prone to swelling than gelatin silver, so old albumen prints almost always have extensive surface cracks visible under magnification, and increased cracking allows more pollutants to attack the emulsion.

[MIke Sherck]

If you're going to let small children play with your prints, the length of the wash becomes irrelevant. Do you supply crayons to draw on them as well? :D

Great, there goes another promising MFA thesis, just thrown out into the gallery world before someone can use it! Won't someone think of the students?

:)

Mike

[tim atherton]

It's hard to tell how long they will last. For a lot of photographic papers past and present the substrate is probably the big unknown - we have little or no information on it over the history of manufactured papers - right up to the present.

Some papers do well some don't, from across a range of periods and products (and even the same product).

I was dealing with some 19th and early twentieth century prints today (of a variety of different types and printing processes).

Apart from a couple of tears and a little curling, one from 1879 looked great (an interesting panoramic of a large herd of buffalo on the Alberta prairie). Others, from 20 or 30 years later or so were in a variety of different conditions from good to awful.

There was also a silver gelatin FB 1970's print where the substrate was clearly acidic and had also cracked, causing the gelatin layer to crack and discolour.

The manufacturers provided (and still provide) little information on what types of paper they used/use; when the same paper changed substrates (as most papers have done several times during their life); and what quality it was - at times the quality was excellent with regard to longevity and preservation, at other times it was terrible - even within the same brand and type of paper.

The big manufacturers have not been forthcoming with any of this kind of information. The Getty Research Institute, which is a world leader in this and working on a major photographic materials project, is having to seek out samples of all the papers to study and build a data bank for future conservation work in collections. (They are doing the same with film - they couldn't even get samples of some of the more recently discontinued films from the manufacturers, never mind anything somewhat older - they either didn't keep any or wouldn't share them)

[tim atherton]

A second issue with photographic papers in more recent times is the use of OBA's in the papers - both FB and RC - and the various changes that take place as those degrade - changing tone, apparent contrast etc. This usually happens within the first ten to twenty years or so of a print's life.

Again, we don't know without testing which papers do and which don't have OBA's in them (the majority seem to, as I recall)

[cotdt]

in general, if we wanted the print to really last a long time, what can we do about it? the really old prints i have (some over 100 years old) use papers which seem to be falling apart but the actual print seems to still be excellent. i don't know if they are silver gelatin or some alternative process, though.

i'm sure modern papers are tougher than the older ones.

[Colin Graham]

.

i'm sure modern papers are tougher than the older ones.


I hope so. They need to be to stand up to all the new crap in the air.

[Michael Alpert]

Sorry, young people like myself have these lazy habits.

cotdt,

Okay, how young are you? Please tell us more about yourself so members of this forum can advise you appropriately.

[Andrew O'Neill]

No one knows for certain how long a silver gelatin print will last. If you want it to last your life time and your children...and perhaps their children, then you should print on fibre, tone with either selenium or gold chloride, hypo clear, and wash thoroughly.

At the high school that I teach at (I teach graphic design and digital photography...yuck), the photo teacher and I printed the same image on various brands of RC and fibre. All were toned in selenium, hypo cleared and washed thoroughly. That was 5 years ago. Some of the RC prints that have been out in room light are starting to bronze (we packaged some prints and kept in the dark and they still look good). All the fibre prints on display look fine. Hmmm, makes you wonder.

I beg to differ with you on one statement that you made. RC does not look identical to a fibre print when laid side-by-side. If yo think it does, then you haven't really looked at them. The photo teacher at my school is a great at teaching photography, but he rarely goes out with a camera or makes prints. He never saw a fibre print until I showed him. Even he could see the difference between the two. We use RC because we can't afford fibre. RC is great to learn on.
So, put your best images on fibre, tone, and wash thoroughly and Bob's your uncle!

[rwyoung]

I believe silver will tarnish the same on RC or fiber paper. The silver is in the gelatin coating on top of the paper and not in the paper itself.

From what I remember, selenium toning puts a thin layer of selenium on top of the silver in a print protecting it from the environment. The selenium doesn't protect the paper.

-Darren

Sliver selenide. Not just a layer of selenium. Silver selenide is much, much less reactive to the atmospheric sulphur and other crap. That can form silver sulphide and that ain't good.

[rwyoung]

in general, if we wanted the print to really last a long time, what can we do about it? the really old prints i have (some over 100 years old) use papers which seem to be falling apart but the actual print seems to still be excellent. i don't know if they are silver gelatin or some alternative process, though.

i'm sure modern papers are tougher than the older ones.

Not necessarily so. And depends on how you define "older ones". Tougher than older RC materials? Probably so. Tougher than older fiber materials, maybe but probably a draw. Storage and handling plays a big role in a print's life time.

Depending on the ages of the prints, they could be silver-salt (with or without a gelatin sizing, could be starch). The could be albumen (egg whites) + silver + a salt. The could be iron based and not silver at all. Could also be platinum, pladium, uranium and a few others. Could be carbon, could be gum arabic + pigment. Could be on glass or japaned iron instead of paper.

Lots and lots of variations in printing techniques in the last 170 years or so...

[rwyoung]

I don't like how Selenium toning changes the original contast. Wouldn't gold toning be better?

Different papers react differently to the toning. The old recommendation about using a high dilution to tone for permanence and not to "shift" the color isn't really valid. But some papers, in my experience specifically Ilford MGFB .5K and MGFB IV dont' shift much at all. I get an increase in dMax (think "blacker black") but not much color shift. You can run some experiments to determine the effect vs. time in toner vs. concentration (I've standardized on 1+4). Much the same as you work out how the paper's drydown affects your print, you can learn to anticipate how the toner affects it.

One think I keep meaning to try and just haven't done it is a really LONG toning. Like 8 hours or more.

There are several different formulations for gold toner. Heck, for nearly every kind of toners. I good read is Tim Rudman's book on toning.