hangers and tanks

[rippo]

i went over to a retired photographer's house to buy some more 4x5 holders, and ended up coming home with a bunch of hangers and two 4x5 tanks. i also got a large 8x10 tank. now what do i do?? :)

i quickly figured out that three or four tanks would have been better than two plus the large one. however i figure i could use the little ones for developer and fixer, and use the big one for a big water stop bath in between (my preferred stop bath anyway). after the fix, on go the lights, wash a tank and do the rinse there (or use another method).

i also have nowhere to hang the hangers while loading them, but i could, in a pinch, hang them between the outer edges of the dev and fix tanks. probably prone to disaster at some point, but this is just a test to see if i like the hanger method or not.

any problems besides that pesky need for total darkness anyone can see so far?

i'm a little hung up on developer choices though. currently i've got HC-110, D-76 and a Anchell/Troop TD-200 two-bath developer that i mix myself. i don't want to burn through developer and these tanks are huge. the two-bath is reusable so that'd be ideal...except then i'd definitely need another tank. i don't want to be washing and pouring back into bottles in the dark. but using HC-110 or D76 is going to burn through a lot of developer, as i don't always do large batches of film processing.

currently i use the 'taco' method, if that gives you some idea of my level of sophistication. :)

any suggestions, or even links, would be helpful. thanks.

[David A. Goldfarb]

Tanks are plentiful and fairly cheap, though shipping can add up. Just get more. Probably a few will have cracks. I've epoxied the cracks, but just decided it makes sense to use the cracked ones to hold hangers as I load them or as wash tanks, and get more good ones.

Ideally, you want a replenishable developer, because they take a lot of solution. D-76 is replenishable. I use Acufine usually, but if I have enough film to process of formats I can do in my tanks, I'll mix up a batch of ABC or PMK for a session. Since the tanks hold more volume than trays and hangers don't aerate the developer as much as shuffling, I can put three batches through a tank of ABC. PMK I do 1-shot, so I rarely do it in a tank, but I have done it.

[Mark Woods]

I use 3 1/2 gallon tanks. Developer D-76 (I replenish), stop bath, fixer. I have a seperate washing tank that has the water move from the bottom up. I've never had a place to hang the hanger while I load them. I work on my enlarger base and lean them against the uprights. One side for the empty ones and the other for the loaded ones. Never had a problem. BTW I use a red digital clock with 3 layers of Rosco Red 90 over it. You can read the time with any type of light on, but when my eyes get used to the darkness, it's easily readable. I agitate once a minute after the initial 10 or 20 seconds agitation. Also, I let the hangers drop on one end to dislodge any air bubbles. Finally, I exhale in the tank before I put the top on. CO2 is heavier than Oxegen. When I had my studio set up, I had a batch of D-76 for 3 or 4 years with no problem. Just replenish. But I was running more film then than now. ;-)

[Darren Kruger]

i'm a little hung up on developer choices though. currently i've got HC-110, D-76 and a Anchell/Troop TD-200 two-bath developer that i mix myself. i don't want to burn through developer and these tanks are huge. the two-bath is reusable so that'd be ideal...except then i'd definitely need another tank. i don't want to be washing and pouring back into bottles in the dark. but using HC-110 or D76 is going to burn through a lot of developer, as i don't always do large batches of film processing.


I use D76 straight in small tanks. Since I don't dilute, i put the developer back in the bottle until i use it up (16 4x5 sheets per 64oz.) I do develop at least 4 sheets at a time. You could always wait until the film is fixed before pouring the developer back into the bottle.

You might want to get two more small tanks. One for stop (water or otherwise) and another for wash-aid. In my setup i use the stop tank as a prewash, stop, & final wash by changing the water between steps.

-Darren

[vinny]

build your own tanks. 3.5 gallon tanks are pretty wasteful unless you're doing 10 sheets at a time with a developer suited for re-use. Even the 4x5 tanks are bit big. You can get addition tanks of the same size at office depot. They are desktop organizer cubes of nearly the same size as yankee brand tanks.
I made my tanks from 1/4 welded abs. The smallest for 2 sheets of 4x5 holds 500ml and the largest for 5 sheets of 8x10 holds 5 liters. You could also use 1/4 plexi or lexan and paint the dev tank black. 8x10 sized hangers that hold 4 sheets of 4x5 are available.

[rippo]

thanks to everyone so far for all the info. a lot to digest!

David: i'll keep an eye out for more tanks. i need to decide if developing in the dark is for me first.

i've never used a replenishing developer, so i was shying away from it. i've used homemade D76 without the hydroquinone (aka D76-H in the Anchell/Troop book, under the theory that it's inactive in D76) with good results. can i omit the hydroquinone from the replenisher formula and use that way? does anyone know?

Mark: good point! the hangers are rigid all the way around. i kept imagining them as not supporting the film at the bottom, even though i have them in my possession. i can just lean them up while preparing. thanks.

Darren: the only time i've ever poured developer back into the bottle is with a two-bath. i like your method...doesn't involve replenisher, but doesn't waste quite as much. does the developer go bad faster? do you notice any difference between the first set of four and the last set of four negs?

anyone know if i could do the same with HC-110, storing it at working strength? or would it oxide too quickly, even a full bottle?

i do have the large 8x10 tank as well, which i had planned to use as you do, with a water pre-soak/water stop and then possibly a washer (it has pipes for a gas-burst system attached to the bottom).

i probably don't need to change the water between pre-wash and stop bath.

vinny: yes, an excellent idea to build smaller, more efficient tanks for different film loads. but then that falls under the 'projects to be completed eventually' section of my life. which, currently, is a list that gets longer rather than shorter!

how does one weld abs?

[Darren Kruger]

Darren: the only time i've ever poured developer back into the bottle is with a two-bath. i like your method...doesn't involve replenisher, but doesn't waste quite as much. does the developer go bad faster? do you notice any difference between the first set of four and the last set of four negs?

I mix up 64 oz batches of D76 so I'm emptying the whole bottle into the tank and then filling the bottle back up again if I haven't used it up. Kodak gives a capacity of 16x 8x10 sheets (64x 4x5 sheets) per gallon; I'm only using half that (up to 16 4x5 sheets per 1/2 gallon.)

I haven't noticed any difference but I'm not that critical. I process up to eight sheets at a time and it always seems like magic when I see the image on the negative after being in the dark. According to the Kodak data sheet you should extend the development time after X many sheets by 15%. I think I need to do some more testing.

oh, if you don't mind buying new, B&H sells a plastic 4x5 tank with lid (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/13145-REG/Cescolite_CL5FT_1_2_Gallon_4_x.html) for $20. There are also stainless steel tanks out there but the one I saw was $70 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/65373-REG/Arkay_600685_45_2_Stainless_Steel_Cut.html).

-Darren

[rippo]

well i'm not critical either, so it sounds perfect. :) i did read about extending the dev time 5% after each use...max 7 rolls per liter, 5% additional time per roll. that's going to hurt my head!

as for buying a new tank, i think i'll give it a try with these first, before i invest so much money ($20). one of these tanks has a lid with it too.

at 7 rolls per liter, you could conceivably be doing somewhere around 12 sets of four sheets before disposing. if you dared.

[Brook Martin]

You might want to look at using Pyrocat HD as it is a very economical developer. The sulfite alone in d 76 may cost as much as an equal amount of pyrocat at working dillution. This would assume you are home brewing the developers.

I found a set of stainless steel 1 gallon 8x10 tanks that can take 6 8x10 sized hangers, they really work out well as far as economy goes.

[Michael Graves]

I'm not sure who made them, but I have a set of 4 8x10 developing tanks made out of acrylic that I keep as a backup in case my Jobo dies. They were my mainstay before I got it. They're made similarly to the archival washers you see all over, but they are designed for 8x10 sheet film hangers. They hold 1.75 gallons and can do 8 hangers at a time if you cram them in. I found it more comfortable to work with 6 at a time. If you can find some of those, you might be in good shape.

[CG]

A couple of quck thoughts.

You will get used to total darkness if you stay methodical about where you place things and keep your process consistent.

Given that you already have two, finding one more 4x5 tank would be easiest. You really only need just one more. Dev, stop and fix. Once your film is fixed you can turn lights back on, free up the other two tanks, and rinse them out to make room for wash aid if you use it, wash, etc...

Load your hangers flat. There's no need to stand them up or hang them while loading.

If you stumble apon a full set of the one gallon 8x10 tanks, and the "4 up" hangers to fit them, they are great too. They take 8x10 hangers, obviously, but also 5x7 "2-ups" and 4x5 4-ups.

I've never liked the 3 1/2 gallon size tanks. They have always been too big for my small volume usage. I've come across a few extra tanks in my hunt for hangers. I may have a couple of extra one gallon 8x10 tanks, and I know I have one or two oddball sized approx. 1 1/2 gallon 8x10 tanks, but I'd need to check.

I don't have any extra 4-up hangers. Actually I'd love to find a few of them. If you fall across a few, I'd be grateful for a PM.

The 4x5 tanks are probably your best set, but should you need any 8x10 tanks PM me.

C

[Michael Kadillak]

All of that manual agitation is a pain in the butt. Nitrogen Gas burst is the ticket. Flip a switch and off she goes. While I was previously fixated during my development time on all of this fiddling with pulling hangers up and to the side and back in I now turn the darkslides back on my holders and even load holders for my next trip during the development process.

3 1/2 gallon tank and replenishing developer and a $8 aquarium heater to get me to the proper temp. Saran wrap over the developer under the lids after I am done to prevent ozidation. For nearly 40 years gas burst was the industry professional standard. It amazes me that so few people know about the process and take advantage of wide array of used components to get set up. Perfect negatives every time as long as you adhere to time proven techniques. Check out View Camera May/June 2007 for an article on the process, With JOBO stumbling, I can now sleep at night.

Do what works to get the job done.

[Turner Reich]

Agitate slowly and deliberately as to not get surge marks on the film as the developer goes through the hangers. Just don't dunk them up and down and a lot. First lift and tilt to the left and then down into the solution and up and tilt to the right then down for one cycle. If you move a hanger too fast you can get the "surge marks" where the developer rushes over the film through the hanger holes, you will know it when you see it, hopefully you won't see it. Others chime in here on surge.

[rippo]

a follow up...i gave the tanks a try, and the results were awful! the edges were 'burned' from overdevelopment, about 1/2" all the way around. no hanger holes per se, just wide bands of developed area around the film, like a reverse vignette. yuck.

which means perhaps i was too vigorous in my agitation?

[Mark Woods]

Hey Matt,

I've had problems in the past. What I do is agitate once a minute and lift the hangers out -- not very quickly -- put them back in at the same speed, and bump the hanger on the side of the tank to release any bubbles. It's worked for a lot of years. I do once a minute since I have a red digital clock with 2 or 3 layers of red filter over it. I can't see the numbers until my eyes get used to the dark.

Hope this helps.

MW

[CG]

... the edges were 'burned' from overdevelopment, about 1/2" all the way around. no hanger holes per se, just wide bands of developed area around the film, like a reverse vignette...

which means perhaps i was too vigorous in my agitation?

Too vigorous agitation would be my first guess.

C

[Gene McCluney]

I love the 3.5 gallon tanks. I can process 8x10, or 5x7 (double sheet hangers) or 4x5 (4 sheet hangers). I load my hangers flat in the dark and stack them flat on the table next to where I am loading. I then pick them up as a group when done.

Different films will require different agitation techniques to process blemish free in hangers in tanks. For example HC-110b, Fortepan 200, I use one lift cycle per minute and get perfect results, on the other hand: HC-110e, Foma-pan 200 I have to do 3 lifts every 15 seconds or the film will streak. I had to go with more dilute developer to get the developing time at or above 5 minutes for this film.

[rippo]

i guess i'll have to try this again. milder agitation, and perhaps a different dev and/or film. i just want something better than the taco method! easy, cheap, and more reliable. apparently that's a hard nut to crack. especially the cheap part (before all you Jobo Kings start chiming in... :) )

[John Berry]

I'm not sure who made them, but I have a set of 4 8x10 developing tanks made out of acrylic that I keep as a backup in case my Jobo dies. They were my mainstay before I got it. They're made similarly to the archival washers you see all over, but they are designed for 8x10 sheet film hangers. They hold 1.75 gallons and can do 8 hangers at a time if you cram them in. I found it more comfortable to work with 6 at a time. If you can find some of those, you might be in good shape. Make your own. 10.5 x 10.5 x 2.375 INSIDE dimensions. Perfect for 4, 8x10 size hangers. I tried 2" but negs were to close, sometimes wanted to stick together. Also 2" uses 3.5 liters. My brain works better with even numbers. I used .25 acrylic, thinner is too flimsy. Don't paint them as you can't see with NVG's.

[Chuck Pere]

Are you putting your film in the hangers the right way? My Kodak hangers have a series of holes along the edges on one side. The back side. As I understand it the film emulsion side should not face the holes. So for my hangers when I put the film in the grooves the emulsion side faces the front away from the holes.

[Mark Sampson]

Find the Kodak publication O-18, "Photography with Large-Format Cameras". It has excellent information, in fact it's the reference standard, about how to proceed with tank&hanger development.