model release

[Clay Turtle]

Interesting to learn about copyrights which brings up another issue . . model releases? When a movie company hires extras, do they need model release or is the act of being in the film implying permission having been given? Which brings up the point with still photography as in the case mention about an artist (graffiti) as the artist whether an actor or painter performs publicly, would this not be a form consent? Which brings one to taking a photo in a public setting, you take a shot of a cafe in Europe or a soccer match in central America or north , the shot will probably include spectators (extras)?

[Asher Kelman]

Clay,

It's pretty simple, one covers oneself! Movie makers always get consent. If a restaurant is used in a low budget movie, a notice will be posted to show people what is going on so they don't have to participate. Full budget movies use extras, pay them and have full releases. One is not going to risk an eighty million dollar move to do otherwise.

Always get a model release of anyone recognizable, except in the USA for art or breaking news. In the street you may be allowed to photograph without permission of any sort and show in a gallery and charge for it. You can post for news. However releases go far beyond that. If the image makes money then people will go after it.

Each country has different expectations for privacy.

The problem is that the subject of your image might be put in a magazine where they discuss infidelity, for example or abortion or anti religious rhetoric which the photographed subject, his/her work or building might be libelled per quod, meaning that the association of your picture in the context of the slimey article, hurts the plaintiff's reputation or ability to earn money.

So whenever you take a picture, it's wise to pay people and have them sign consent including that the use of the images in contexts that may be unfavorable. If your images do not have these consents, you may well have devalued your own work as there is a reluctance to use such images, unless for news.

Asher

[Doug Dolde]

Clay Turtle? Come on that can't be your real name !

[Clay Turtle]

Clay Turtle? Come on that can't be your real name ! Funny thing, I was asked the same question yesterday so I will give you the same answer today. I was asked is that my given name so I said "yes, I was given that name by Native Americans, so yes it is my given name.
As I had been given that name by S.N.A, it was later comfirmed by a "Naming Ceremony" by N.N.A.
PS If this does not satisfy you, then look at it from my point of view . . . who gave you, your name? Doesn't it reflect their will (wants & desires) but my name reflects the aspects that others saw in me (my spirit or soul aspects).
So your name doesn't really say anything about who you are while mine states more about who I am?

[Asher Kelman]

Funny thing, I was asked the same question yesterday so I will give you the same answer today. I was asked is that my given name so I said "yes, I was given that name by Native Americans, so yes it is my given name.
As I had been given that name by S.N.A, it was later comfirmed by a "Naming Ceremony" by N.N.A.
PS If this does not satisfy you, then look at it from my point of view . . . who gave you, your name? Doesn't it reflect their will (wants & desires) but my name reflects the aspects that others saw in me (my spirit or soul aspects).
So your name doesn't really say anything about who you are while mine states more about who I am?
That's wonderful, but in a way, it's Obama-speak, an appeal to the goodwill of man. We have that when we go up the impressive stone steps of a court room and pass beneath the scales of justice. It's a prayer we have. The reality is that justice, like prayers, is not always delivered.

So while from my heart and inner values I love your name and stance, from a practical standpoint, that falls short in a professional forum where commerce takes place and advice is given that costs a lot to implement. Here, the name should be fully open to withstand scrutiny. Even a pious priest calling himself "Good Shephard" is therefore suspect, not because we're mean. It's just being practical! Of course, you are named by some people Clay turtle, and that does not, in itself, degrade the forum. However I'd ask, can we look up a college, business address or store with that name and know your feedback?

So while I love the story and it touches the best in me, on a practical level, it puts a small hole in the boat we all sail in together.

If we all did that, the boat would go nowhere.

Just my $0.02!

Asher

[Clay Turtle]

Of course, you are named by some people Clay Turtle, and that does not, in itself, degrade the forum. However I'd ask, can we look up a college, business address or store with that name and know your feedback? Hmm . . . not sure what is being said but to paraphrase a close friend of mine "I am one of those non-person" So as I live on the fringe of society at best, no I am afraid that you would not find me listed there. The name Clay comes from SNA inability to pronounce my name so as I am like the dirt (clay) that they could say & which I accepted, from the NNA comes the Turtle as NA is called Turtle Island & is as common name as Jones or Smith in that respect.

[rwyoung]

OK, at the risk of shoving this thread sliding further down the slippery slope of "off topic", Clay I have a quick question about the abbreviations.

NA = Native American?
NNA = ?
SNA = ?

I scanned back to look at your post again but I didn't get enough context clues to figure them out.

Just curious. As an engineer I deal with TLAs (Three Letter Abbreviations, interned at NASA years and years ago and they had great thick TLA dictionaries printed, seriously) all day, some of which have different meanings depending on context.

Thanks in advance for satisfying my lexical curiosity. :)

[Clay Turtle]

OK, at the risk of shoving this thread sliding further down the slippery slope of "off topic", Clay I have a quick question about the abbreviations.

NA = Native American?
NNA = ?
SNA = ?

I scanned back to look at your post again but I didn't get enough context clues to figure them out. :)

NA = Native American
NNA = Northern Native American (North America)
SNA = Southern Native American (South America)

[Marko]

So while from my heart and inner values I love your name and stance, from a practical standpoint, that falls short in a professional forum where commerce takes place and advice is given that costs a lot to implement. Here, the name should be fully open to withstand scrutiny. Even a pious priest calling himself "Good Shephard" is therefore suspect, not because we're mean. It's just being practical! Of course, you are named by some people Clay turtle, and that does not, in itself, degrade the forum. However I'd ask, can we look up a college, business address or store with that name and know your feedback?

The topic of public names has been discussed many times on this board and this is one of the most frequent and very logical positions.

However, not all of us here are professionals. Some of us are strictly enthusiasts, amateurs if you will, in the original meaning of the word. We do not earn for our living doing photography, we only make our lives more interesting and more relaxed with it. Which also means that, with rare exceptions, we do earn our living working in often totally unrelated fields.

The Web is a Global Village in the true sense of the word. Once posted, everything is accessible to everybody, everywhere and at any time. Even years after the fact. Which is not a bad thing per se, but many of us would prefer to keep their professional lives separate from their leisure activities. While I do want and even encourage my clients to look up the examples of my work online, I do not necessarily want them to know about my hobbies.

And that is one of the reasons I decided to post under a first name that may or may not be a pseudonym. What difference does it make anyway? A name is just a name, a person can legally change the name, as many immigrants to this country routinely do (often for no other reason than to make it pronounceable for the natives ;)) and still remain the same (wo)man as before, with all the wonderful and reprehensible traits they've always had.

I will gladly introduce myself to those who need and want to know me personally. But I don't want to have my name plastered publicly on a specialized discussion forum with no control over who can see it, when and under which context. I prefer to think of it as prudent rather than suspicious behaviour.

[otzi]

To this end I have to agree. A mokum of privacy is not a bad thing. I use my real name on any private mails to members linking to the tag. Otzi, as most will know is an elderly chap housed at government expense in a nice clean and modern air conditioned suite. Due to his frail and aging frame he no longer roams the hills as he once did. His accommodation is in close proximity to a small village that looks like the stone and iron age. I am sure he is comforted as he looks out his windows, the modern dress codes of today must surly be a wonderment to him.

IT was in reverence to this man that I took up his name on my mail address as I needed to quickly pick something and there it was on my mouse mat!

[Marko]

LOL, just beware those arrows! :)

[Asher Kelman]

Otzi and Marko,

The idea that Pros should not hide behind a disguise is I believe at first blush a good one. Your re-framing of the issue of "aliases" with respect to enthusiasts or hobbyist is worth attention to me. In my own website, keeping out non-photographers, flame throwers, spammers and the like is an investment in effort that pays off in a good atmosphere for relaxed exchange and fun.

If one is interacting with the public as if a professional then, to me at least, the identity should also be professional. In your case, Marko, since I already know you, a card with "Marko Photography", a searchable website of that name and so forth, means that you have to be accountable, even though it's a separate and parallel identity. The main thing is it is hones and is accountable. If you are going to be using models, and in a way representing other but full-time professionals, its, IMHO, a "good thing" for everyone to make oneself accountable.

So, you have made me think about and so clarify to myself my own views. So yes, we should respect another "chosen" name, but then that name should be presented with the same responsibility as one's legal name reserved for one's principal and non-photography occupation.

So I guess it's the DBA of the serious hobbyist and enthusiast.

Otherwise, I still think that aliases (without foundation) are really not justified.

Asher

[Marko]

Asher,

Yes, I fully agree with the honesty and accountability part and I find a DBA parallel to be a pretty good description of what I have in mind. But, I also still prefer to separate the name(s) from the person. A name is nothing more than a moniker, it is the person behind it (them) that really matters - I can easily have one pseudonym on this forum, another on dog lovers forum, yet another one on airplane models forum, etc. while still being only one of me. All those names could simply represent different aspects of my personal interests, while at the same time doing business and appearing under my full name on Web Design sites and forums. I could also choose to maintain a web site or a multitude of them for that matter under different names that do not necessarily have to be under my given name. And so on, you get the idea.

And all is still very kosher as long as I maintain honesty, responsibility and accountability about it all, as you have so succinctly put it.

But then again, knowing my real name and address is no guarantee that I will indeed meet your standards - it is not the name that makes the man, it is the man that makes the name, whichever one he chooses to use.

Marko

[rwyoung]

NA = Native American
NNA = Northern Native American (North America)
SNA = Southern Native American (South America)

Thank you! I have officially learned something new today. Everything else that happens today is a bonus! :)

[eddie]

this is the internet! you can simply make up names. why is tom jones, or bill smith or joe mc phee, or steve little, or mike fox any different or better than doug dolde, asher kelman, or clay turtle. what makes you think that steve little is any more real than clay turtle? what makes you sure that tom jones is any more unreal than asher kelman? as far as i am concerned you all have made up names.....even the ones that sound "real"

so lets leave our poor old brother turtle alone.......anwer his question if we can....and get on with it!

If you can, get a model release just to cover your ass....or in this case your tail!

eddie

[gregstidham]

Why is every thread in this forum hijacked and turned into piffle?

[Clay Turtle]

Perhaps it is my fault for not being more specific. OK, I prefer the wild places for doing my photos so working within the city is not SOP to me. Shooting at night or in low light situations tend to produce long exposures which would render people somewhat blurred & therefore model release would seem more of an academic subject. Shooting in the city also tend to produce shots with pedestrian traffic coming into play especial with LF film size tend to cover large background areas. So if I take a shot of a park or a sidewalk cafe. It would be hard to get model releases from everyone in a park or while I might get releases from let us say people sitting at the cafe, what of those who simply walking by? Now, if I were shoot a park with a 35mm it might be reasonable to assume that distant joggers would not be clearly recognizable but again with LF, I could enlarge to 30x40 or larger in which case this might not be true.

[wobbly1]

I will post this for information on the 'real name' stuff. Right at the time the requirement for date of birth info became a requirement I started receiving some very nasty and threatening email from two from these forums. I did something about it. I went to the Feds and filed a complaint. Then I dropped from these boards. This has finally been resolved within the past week and those who did the deeds understand the meaning of 'legal action' from the aspect of a Federal Prison cell if anything shows up from them in the future. It took my making contact with the offices of two US Senators to get the Feds to take it seriously. After the Senators made contact action was taken.
If I had not posted my real information they would have been sending to an email account I could just delete and let die. Since it was for my business and professional use I could not easily do this.
There are real reasons to use a pseudonmy or screen name at times. Even if you are willing to go the legal route it takes a lot of time, authorities move slowly(if you can get them to move at all-it took visits to my US Senators to get the Feds to do anything) and you lose a lot more than time when it happens.
So, cut the guy some slack if he wants to use something other than his given name.

[Asher Kelman]

Perhaps it is my fault for not being more specific. OK, I prefer the wild places for doing my photos so working within the city is not SOP to me. Shooting at night or in low light situations tend to produce long exposures which would render people somewhat blurred & therefore model release would seem more of an academic subject. Shooting in the city also tend to produce shots with pedestrian traffic coming into play especial with LF film size tend to cover large background areas. So if I take a shot of a park or a sidewalk cafe. It would be hard to get model releases from everyone in a park or while I might get releases from let us say people sitting at the cafe, what of those who simply walking by? Now, if I were shoot a park with a 35mm it might be reasonable to assume that distant joggers would not be clearly recognizable but again with LF, I could enlarge to 30x40 or larger in which case this might not be true.

Hi Clay,

It is not hard with LF to get the shutter speed to be of the order of many seconds and so the people not just blur, they vanish. To get a building in a busy place we even add a ND filter. As long as the wind or vibrations don't move the camera, that solves a lot of problems. In an urban or countryside landscape, figures are often going to be small anyway. So the chances are, they will not be recognizable. If however, you have someone prominently in a picture for your own art, at least in the USA, you are home free as long as the place was public and the person had no reasonable expectation of privacy (so that excludes restrooms) and telephoto shots through bedroom windows. If someone leans out of the window, I expect that's O.K. too.

The more the picture depends on that person, the more advisable it is to get consent. Still, if you are not planning to use it in a negative way, say as an example of moral decay or dishonesty, then you are free to do anything you want without any consent.

The problem is that if you want to license the image, it has little market value, (unless a rare event), without consent. Bill in bed with Hilary, would, for example, be sold, consent or not in one Hollywood moment! :)

The best thing to do is to carry a short consent form that allows you to do what you intend to do with the images and offers in return, if they supply contact information or email you, x number prints. Have with you a professional card as well as a postcard with one of your pictures on it and a link to your website. That will make people at ease. If they don't want to give consent, you can choose to ignore their wishes or destroy the image or blur them later!

Asher

[Asher Kelman]

There are real reasons to use a pseudonmy or screen name at times. Even if you are willing to go the legal route it takes a lot of time, authorities move slowly(if you can get them to move at all-it took visits to my US Senators to get the Feds to do anything) and you lose a lot more than time when it happens.
So, cut the guy some slack if he wants to use something other than his given name.
Thanks wobbly1 for the enlightenment.

It's helpful but disappointing for me to know of your painful experience here and I'm sorry it happened to you. My own way, in my own practice, is to always allow pseudonyms for anyone who requests for a good reason such as yours. Then at least we know (or we believe know) that the person is genuine and not someone who could care less about a community.

In any case, I must admit, that anyone who is well-mannered enough to get consents is likely to be more rather more decent fellow anyway!

If one photographs in a place where one needs consent, then consent, I would reckon, has to be between to real parties, not an undocumented phantom. If, "David Smart was a pseudonym with no website and tel number then with what entity is one making an agreement? So, IMHO, if one is obtaining consent, one needs to at least have a Fictitious Name that is related to a real website and with a real email so that there is a likelihood of the person being able to get pictures.

If one just uses an alias alone then there might all sort of implications for the nature of your intent in getting someone to pose/be included in your photograph under false pretense.

I had never previously thought of the two issues: pseudonymy and consent crossing paths before, but it certainly raises questions.

Asher

[Clay Turtle]

Yes, some very good points have been brought to light, I remember a song that I like. Don't really recall who wrote it or who the artist was but I remember that it seemed to revolve around some person called Norma Jeanne, I think. Funny thing is later I heard that it was about Marilyn Monroe?
Question about the issue: Legality
Went to a well publicized event: Evinston to Cross Creek Paint out to benefit:
"Profits support the preservation of Florida's Oldest Post Office"
"The Wood & Swink Old Store and Post Office"

[Clay Turtle]

I took a couple of photographs with the 4x5 but the activities of the Paint Out didn't suit me, I mean I didn't want that "event day" portrait. Anyway I talked to the people from the paint out & was given permission (verbal) to photograph the event. So I put away the LF & got out my 35mm took some shots & went off looking for scenics & other painters out in the field.
I started thinking about the how these artist felt being involved in a shoot out so to speak & as a photographer would feel if I was involved in a similar fashion, a photographic shoot out? As I came to a bridge I noted a guy fishing off to the side so I pulled up & parked. Got out & walked back onto the bridge & looked over the side, but I really didn't like the scene & didn't want to bother the guy fishing so I walked across to the other side. Yes, this was much better, in fact I was surprised to find this painter with his easel set up right where I would have set up my tripod!
Oh well, I went back to the car & got out my 35mm, came back & asked if he minded if I took some color photos. Thinking, yes . . this is a good cause, I decided to do a bit of fancy work as a promotional effect to bring more interest in the up coming sell of these painting the artist were producing.
Now I went back after I got my film back & tried to contact those involved in the event. Called & email, even went back to the PO & asked about it but was told that a death in the family of the the one involved from the store had postponed the event (final sell)? If I wanted to use this as a matter of technique, would I need a model release?

[Asher Kelman]

.........Called & email, even went back to the PO & asked about it but was told that a death in the family of the the one involved from the store had postponed the event (final sell)? If I wanted to use this as a matter of technique, would I need a model release?

Hi Clay Turtle,

If your work is used to promote or sell art from the event, I see no problem in getting consent. The event after all will be organized and if they want your image, they will get consent. As long as they don't put your picture in the section for "Up and coming artists who need to learn color" and so "libel him”, libel per quod or posts this on porn site, then there's no problem. Even then, if you were not involved with the derogatory placement or use of the picture, then you would likely have a good defense. However, even in this apparently innocent transaction, of providing a photograph to help them, you might have to hire a lawyer to defend yourself!

So bottom line is always try to get consent and find out what the pictures will be used for. One thing you can always do is NOT sell the picture but license it for a specific limited use with a "hold harmless clause". You need a one time visit to a lawyer to be sure on how you, in particular, should deal with the kind of people and market you wish to deal with. At the very least protect yourself in this order:

License only for limited use
Hold harmless clause
Consent form for anyone recognizable
Special consent for underage

Asher

I am not a lawyer, this is just my own take on this, not any legal advice you can rely on! However, you might perhaps find this useful. :)

[Clay Turtle]

Thank Asher, one other thing I should come clean with is as he painted I asked if he minded if I set up the 4x5 off to the side of him & took one shot then after he left I moved over to the position he had taken for the other.
when I first arrived at the site I had looked around & decided to shoot only to find him in that spot, guess we both liked that spot. Now I tend to like the first shot better! As they had their sale w/o me I never used these shots. When my mother got really bad as primary care giver I couldn't get out to do any shooting. My mother had been going to a pain specialist up until she died. He is a good (kind hearted) person but the office decor lacked anything to occupy those in the waiting room. On one wall was a couple of reprints of a still life paintings so I had copies of these shots made to fit the frames after asking permission to replace them. After my mother death, I got the prints & went to his office.The nurse helped me as we removed the reprints & put up these in their place. I was hanging the last one when the doctor came out to see them. He said I should have signed them, I told him I already had. Of course he may have meant on the back but I had signed the front . . . Clay Turtle.

[akalai]

Two links that may still be of interest to you;

...from Alec Soth's Blog: http://alecsoth.com/blog/2006/09/11/faq-model-releases/

"I keep my release short and unthreatening:

In exchange for consideration received, I hereby give permission to Alec Soth to use my name and photographic likeness in all forms and media.

Since I don’t use my images for advertising I don’t need a release. But it is a good place to keep names and contact info. Years ago I used to tell my subjects I would send a print but usually didn’t do it. I have a lot of built up guilt. Now I’m pretty good about mailing a picture to everyone I photograph."

... and from a link on APUG.org about Alec Soth's model release; http://www.apug.org/forums/forum50/31794-how-about-model-release.html

"Apparently this is from Magnum,

For value received, I consent to the publication of my photograph used by Magnum Photos, Inc., whether for not with my name or any text, captions, illustrations whatsoever, and I release them from any liability for such use in any and all media."

Certainly worth reading the rest of the link though.

[Asher Kelman]

Two links that may still be of interest to you;

...from Alec Soth's Blog: http://alecsoth.com/blog/2006/09/11/faq-model-releases/

"I keep my release short and unthreatening:

In exchange for consideration received, I hereby give permission to Alec Soth to use my name and photographic likeness in all forms and media.

Well, one has to have a "consideration"! So that's why we must to make and deliver those pictures! If they get that then the contract is completed. This does not release you from circumstance where the images are used to libel the subject or do other damage.

Contracts aren't longer just for the sake of being impressive.

Asher

[rodney@theloughroad.com]

I was asked to be an extra in a movie once, they made me sign a release.

Don't know if it'll help, but this is what we use when we need to. So Far So Good.

Adult Model Release

In consideration of my engagement as a model, upon the terms herewith
stated, I hereby give to (YOU or YOUR COMPANY NAME HERE) his heirs, legal representatives and assigns, those for whom (YOU or YOUR COMPANY NAME HERE) is acting, and those acting with his authority and permission:

a) the unrestricted right and permission to copyright and use, re-use,
publish, and republish photographic portraits or pictures of me or in which
I may be included intact or in part, composite or distorted in character or
form, without restriction as to changes or transformations in conjunction
with my own or a fictitious name, or reproduction hereof in color or
otherwise, made through any and all media now or hereafter known for
illustration, art, promotion, advertising, trade, or any other purpose
whatsoever.

b) I also permit the use of any printed material in connection therewith.

c) I hereby relinquish any right that I may have to examine or approve the
completed product or products or the advertising copy or printed matter that
may be used in conjunction therewith or the use to which it may be applied.

d) I hereby release, discharge and agree to save harmless (YOU or YOUR COMPANY NAME HERE), his heirs, legal representatives or assigns, and all persons functioning under his permission or authority, or those for whom he is functioning, from any
liability by virtue of any blurring, distortion, alteration, optical illusion, or use in composite form whether intentional or otherwise, that may occur or be produced in the taking of said picture or in any subsequent processing thereof, as well as any publication thereof, including without limitation any claims for libel or invasion of privacy.

e) I hereby affirm that I am over the age of majority and have the right to
contract in my own name. I have read the above authorization, release and
agreement, prior to its execution; I fully understand the contents thereof.

This agreement shall be binding upon me and my heirs, legal representatives
and assigns.

Dated: _____________________________________

Signed:_____________________________________

Address:____________________________________

City:_______________________________________

State/Zip:___________________________________

Phone:_____________________________________

EMail:______________________________________

Witness:____________________________________

[Asher Kelman]

That is a pretty good map of what's needed. The mechanics however required checking with local state laws. One may not be able to simply sign away some things included.

I'd write down who I was having sign this, what I was telling them the shoot was about and what the likely uses were, what the person was being given and then have the attorney write this up customized for those needs with all such models.

Also there are clauses missing: one of which states just where the jurisdiction is, what maximum damages might be, what happens if one part of the release is deemed illegal or unenforcible, so "separability" is something to ask about too!

Just because something is included, does not mean it will stand in court if it is not framed properly, is against public policy and so forth.

Still a brief release such as yours is better than nothing of course!

Asher

[rodney@theloughroad.com]

That is a pretty good map of what's needed. The mechanics however required checking with local state laws. One may not be able to simply sign away some things included.

I'd write down who I was having sign this, what I was telling them the shoot was about and what the likely uses were, what the person was being given and then have the attorney write this up customized for those needs with all such models.

Also there are clauses missing: one of which states just where the jurisdiction is, what maximum damages might be, what happens if one part of the release is deemed illegal or unenforcible, so "separability" is something to ask about too!

Just because something is included, does not mean it will stand in court if it is not framed properly, is against public policy and so forth.

Still a brief release such as yours is better than nothing of course!

Asher


Excellent points indeed. This particular one was designed by a lawyer, for use specifically in California. Amazingly there is no point of renumeration. Apparently someone does not have to be paid to release the use of their image.

I share this information because California is one of the toughest when it comes to personal rights. But I do agree that having a lawyer look something over, just to be sure it is valid in your state, is a very good idea.