Differentiating the different F series Arca Swiss models

[otzi]

Having tried to search out and determine the differences between the various Arca Swiss models I am still at a loss to really determine all the different features to determine the best (for me) model.

F - classic
F - Field
F - Metric

What does compact truly signify.
Can rails be added or removed (vis. Sonar) as needed.
Are bellows joinable. (to make them longer) or only changeable to a longer one.

These are very popular cameras so there has to be something truly spectacular about them. I see them as being a simpler, more portable Sinar, sort of. Tell me if I'm wrong.

I wonder if the F series Arca Swiss may be a reasonable balance between portable for field whilst being capable of fully movement needed situations.

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

Hi, Ötzi !!
Did you know that I've been twice to your home, the Similaun glacier in Ôtztal, Tirol, Austria.
But too bad I missed you, instead of having a chat with you in your award-winning ice cave (and have an iced tea, perharps) we hurried to relax after our ski tour to enjoy an excellent & refreshing Bier von Faß at the nearby Similaunhütte ;-)

--

Arca Swiss F-line is the generic line of cameras derived and improved from the original Oschwald brothers Arca Swiss Cameras after 1984 when the company was sold to the present owners, the Vogt family.

The other line of monorails is the M-line. An evolution of the original M-line is the present Monolilth(TM) range of cameras.

Terminology : an Arca Swiss camera is made of a rail, a pair of function carriers, a pair of format frames conected by a bellows, a lens board (& lens of course) a ground glass and graflok International back.

The first function provided by the function carrriers is a geared translation of the standards by a rack and pinion system. Other functions are tilts.

F-classic refers to a F-line where the function carriers operate lateral shifts and rise by directly sliding the frames & standards manually after unlocking a clamping system.

F-metric refers to an improvement over the F-classic where rise and shifts are controlled by a geared (rack and pinion) self-locking system built in the function carriers and inside the format frames. Otherwise, F-classic and F-metric are identical.

F-classic and F-metric share the same rails same bellows and the same ground glass. The function carriers and the frames are different but mutually compatible i.e. you can attach a F-classic frame to a F-metric function carrier and vice versa.

"compact" refers to either model where the rail is foldable in two halves by a special hinge. Hence the standard 30cm rail of the 6x9 and 4x5" models becomes a double rail of 15cm length. Foldable rails exist in 40cm and 50cm.
"compact rail" opposes to "telescopic rail" another version where the rail is split into two separate parts sliding on a so-called "bracket", another supporting rail underneath.

The M-monolith is different from the classic and metric, the monolith function carriers control all the functions including tilts by a geared system.

All cameras share the same rails either compact/foldable or telescopic and all cameras share the same range of bellows.

The F-field 4x5" is a F-line, either classic or metric (or even ca be a monolith) where the front standards are the 110mm model (used by the smaller 6x9 camera) and the back is the 4x5" back. Both standards are connected by tapered bellows.

In addition we should add the misura(TM) which defines as a kind of special F-field camera with simplfied function carriers (not tilts at rear), a built-in orbix additional precision tilting stage in front, a 32 cm foldable rail and a leather case for the 4x5" model. An yes, a 8x10" misura exists.

The former arca swiss F-line and M-line catalog is downloadable from here. It is a good introduction to the system and it explains how different parts can be combined together.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/ARCA.pdf

New things with respect to this (now obsolete) catalog are : standards and bellows for the 4x5" formats are now 141mm square. 171mm accessories are discontinued.

A new line of cameras, the R-line has been introduced. The R-line are cameras dedicated to short focal lengths, focusing is done by an helical mount (no rail is required), the cameras can be used hand-held but are still compatible with the rest of the system including the rails and bellows, i.e. you can transform the R-line into a monrail camera if you need a very long focal length or a long bellows draw for macro.

[Charles Hohenstein]

Can all the Arca monorail cameras, both 4x5 and 8x10, take a metering back? And can they all employ the Arca shutter?

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

Hello, Charles

Can all the Arca monorail cameras, both 4x5 and 8x10, take a metering back? ...

I know that Arca Swiss developed a metering back for the 4x5" model. It was based on silicon light-sensitive chips embedded in the ground glass. This device is listed in the old catalog referenced above but I do not know it it is still manufactured. I doubt. I do not know if such a back was ever made for the 8x10".
I know that Sinar developed a metering back. This was mostly a ground glass with a CdS Gossen meter attached. You would move/slide the sensitive element along the ground glass and make some selective measurements. Of course this back will not directly fit an Arca Swiss camera ;-)
Having discussed of those devices with some French professional photographers in the business of LF photography for decades, none of them were ever enthusiastic about those 4x5" metering backs. All prefer external measuring methods. Some only swear by the spotmeter, some others say that they have never used a spotmeter in the studio, but in the good old days, polaroid test films were used by hundreds of packs ;-)


And can they all employ the Arca shutter?
Hmm. I confess taht I do not know this device : is-it a focal plane shutter ?
I know that Arca Swiss developed an electrical-driven leaf shutter to mount on lenses like any mechanical leaf shutter. I have seen the device in operation but again I doubt if it is still on catalog.

Ad far as a focal plane shutter is concerned, I do not know.. may be an old accessory developed by the Oschwald brothers ??? Do you have a photo or a reference to it ? (the Oschwald brothers developed in the sixties a number of accessories for the first A/S line of cameras, some of those accessories do fit the 171mm modern F-line cameras)

[otzi]

Emmanuel,- Given that the metric offers some geared movements, which model or lens board size, offers the greatest rise. Also which model allows one to add sections of rail as needed. Does the same compendium fit all models?

[Charles Hohenstein]

I think that I was confusing Arca and Sinar features. I've never had the chance to play with either one.

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

Given that the metric offers some geared movements, which model or lens board size, offers the greatest rise
In 4x5", the F-classic or metric feature the same amout of rise & shift.
The field model with its 110mm board has to be lifted up by a few centimetres in order to properly center the optical axis with respect to the centre of the film format. Same situation occurs for bigger formats where the front standard is either 171 (old style) or 141 (new style).
In 171 mm, rise capabilty is 100mm either front or rear. Lateral shift is plus or minus 50mm.
In 141 mm, rise & shift capabilities are the same.

In order to increase the available front rise in 5x7" and 8x10", A/S has on catalog an extender which simply slides between the function carrier and the format frame.
Hence the "square" 4x5" models 171-171 (old style, discontinued but easy to find as a used item) or 141-141 (present models) offer the maximum amount of rise & shift both in front and rear. The former 171 mm F-lines offered same rise & shift than the current 141.
But in fact you'll be limited by the available image circle of your lenses before being limited by the rise/shift capabilities of the standards. Except of course if you imagine to use all possible shifts with a long focal length e.g. a 600 mm apo-ronar ;-)

Does the same compendium fit all models?
Yes with the new compendium which is the same for 110mm boards (6x9, field 4x5) or the 141 (all other formats & models)
previously, you had two different compendiums, the 6x9 model was smaller than the 4x5 designed to fit 171mm boards.

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

To Charles
OK you a referring to the Sinar behind-the-lens shutter.
This is a typical Sinar accessory. I doubt that you can mount it on an A/S camera ; however on the 171mm A/S models, boards were large enough to accommodate various 3-rd party boards including the 140mm square Sinar board.

I do not think that there has ever been a behind-the-lens shutter in the A/S product line.

[otzi]

Emmanuel
You have explained boards and rise on 5x7 and 8X10 but I don't think I've go it yet with 4x5. Am I to assume that the F line has 110 boards. These offer how much rise? Is there a fitting to add, that increases the rise? Do larger boards offer greater rise? Or have I got that wrong too.

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

The F-line "field" 4x5" has 110 mm front standards.
All models above 4x5 have the 141mm front standard i.e. the 5x7" and 8x10" including the 8x10" misura.
Only the 6x9 and the 4x5" "field" plus the 4x5" misura have 110mm front standards.
I have the current metric-field 4x5" configuration with 141 mm rear standards (plus the optional manual orbix® tilting stage in front.)
In this configuration with zero tilts everywhere I have to pre-rise the front standard by about 15mm on a total allowed rise travel of 60mm in order to properly center the optical axis with respect to the film format.
Front lateral shifts with a 110mm standard are plus or minus 30 mm.

But with a F-line classic or metric with the regular function carriers, you do not have to worry about front rise since you can use indirect rise : both function carriers allow plus or minus 45° of base tilt ; so using indirect rise you'll only be limited by the tortures you'll have to apply to your bellows !!
Only the misuras with no rear tilts cannot use indirect rise but the rear misura function carrier is flatter and saves about 2-3 cm or font rise !

[Robert Fisher]

Emmanuel, I have a 810 Orbix 141 F Metric and want to shoot 57.

Rob at Photomark here in the US says that Arca will begin shipping a 57 conversion kit this spring/year/next year/next decade.

Do you know have any definitive information from the owner at Arca.

PS: I simply love my Arca.

[otzi]

Ok, last posting, hopefully. How do I determine if an AS has the expandable rail, i.e. with extra pieces like the Sinar? How does this relate to the field series.

Where does the discovery fit in with all this, regarding rise and rails that add on?

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

To Robert : sorry, I did not have the opportunity to meet the A/S people recently, but sure next time I'll ask what is going on about 5x7".

Answers to our Austrian correspondent :

How do I determine if an AS has the expandable rail, i.e. with extra pieces like the Sinar? How does this relate to the field series.

At the beginning of the F-line in 1984, the cameras continued to use a rail very similar to the previous Oschwalds' except for the colour, anodized black instead of silver for the old style.
This 1-st generation of F-line black rails is named : rail type I by arcaphiles. Is has a narrow rectangular opening inside. I do not know if an additional extension rail was available for the F-line rails type I.
At some time before the end of the XX-st century, rails were redesigned and became F-line rail type II. You can recognise them easily because they have are thicker and exhibit a circular tubular opening at the centre. In the ciculat inside tube you can screw the extension rail ; it exists in 15 cm and 25 cm long. I have the 15 cm, this is perfect for what I do in 6x9 and 4x5 with the 30 cm rail.
So : ask for a F-line rail type II, either foldable, non foldable or telescopic and look of the inside tube is circular.
This issue is totally de-correlated from the "field" issue. All rails, be they Oschwald "silver" style, F-line type I (flat rectangular hole) or F-line type II (circular hole) fit all function carriers.

Where does the discovery fit in with all this, regarding rise and rails that add on?

The (discontinued) Discovery model is a 171-171 classical F-line but stripped-off of a few "deluxe" features
- the rail is 30cm fixed non foldable
- first discovery models were shipped with a small alumin(i)um block screwed under on the rail instead of the sliding 8.5 cm connecting bracket (rail type II)
- the function carriers have yellow plastic knobs for focusing with no rubber insert
- the front Discovery function carrier has no focusing gear and is just a focusing stage with a clamp. So you focus approximately by freely sliding the front standard and then you fine focus with the rear standard which has the usual rack and pinion system, 2cm of travel per one full turn of the knob.
- the lateral shift is clamped by a screw like 1-st generation F-line "basic" models instead of the spring-loaded F-classic clamp.

Rise and fall are exactly the same as F-classic 171mm models.
All accessories in 171 mm fit the Discovery without any limitation.

additional info : all classical Fline function carriers have a rack and pinion focusing system both at front and rear ; except for the misura which has only a focusing gear at rear like the Discovery

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

Emmanuel, it looks like you have some contact with the AS reps, so I am wondering if you would pass along a few complaints I have about the AS F line compact 8x10 camera.

1- the folding rail, dumb idea to have it fold at ther middle. The idea of that compact camera it is so that you can transport it, it is not easy to do it with a 12 inch rail sticking out. The rail should fold at about the 7 cm mark and it should fold UP, not down.

2- I paid more than $5000 for this camera, and they cannot make the front standard with the raise at least 2 or 3 cm longer?!? As it is, it just reaches the center, it cannot go higher. I don't think it is right to use 4x5 elements (which this clearly is) on an 8x10 camera and charge for 8x10. As quick as this camera is to use, if you need to use some rise, you have lost all the advantage since you have to tilt the camera and guess how much tilt will be enough.

3- That crappy 8.5 cm bracket they send with the F line compact 8x10. Once again, for the kind of money I paid, I should get items that are right for an 8x10 camera not a 4x5. The rail folds in two 12 inch parts, so why cant they send the 30 cm bracket with the 8x10? It is only a few bucks more expensive and it would go a long way to hold a 50 cm rail, the 8.5 cm bracket is worthless with an 8x10 rail.

I love the camera, I love the ease of use, but I gotta say, I felt cheated when I saw what I got for my money. I had to buy an extension to carry the camera in a back pack, I had to buy the 30 cm bracket, all of this on top of what I paid....I was not, and I am not a happy camper. I really think in a way AS is cheating it's customers.

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

To Jorge Gasteazoro : I should have added the usual disclaimer that I am not affiliated, etc... ;) so you should address your complaints to your local A/S rep ; etc.. ;) .......

.....but at least I can answer question one :

1- the folding rail, dumb idea to have it fold at ther middle
The 8x10" misura now uses a rail that folds into two unequal parts, a short front part, on which you collapse both standards, and the longer back parts that you lift up along the ground glass.

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

To Jorge Gasteazoro : I should have added the usual disclaimer that I am not affiliated, etc... ;) so you should address your complaints to your local A/S rep ; etc.. ;) .......

.....but at least I can answer question one :

1- the folding rail, dumb idea to have it fold at ther middle
The 8x10" misura now uses a rail that folds into two unequal parts, a short front part, on which you collapse both standards, and the longer back parts that you lift up along the ground glass.

I understand Emmanuel, I just thought since you are in France and possibly have more contact with the AS people you would be best to pass along my complaints. I guess I would send an e mail to the AS people in the US, but I doubt it would do any good.

Thanks anyhow for your response, the misura folding rail is what should have been done for the compact as well.

[Robert Fisher]

Jorge, I purchased the Arca extension for my 810 to give added rise.

I shoot a lot of old barns/buildings/etc and needed the rise.

I agree with you 100% about Arca's design of the 810. The camera (IMHO) is absolutely the best LF made BUT the use of the 45 front standard on the 810 body is shocking.

[Capocheny]

Robert,

One of the other well-known retailers told me not to hold my breath on the 5x7 conversion kit as they've had one on order for a veeeeeeery long time. IIRC, 2 years rings a bell. :>0

Cheers

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

Jorge, I purchased the Arca extension for my 810 to give added rise.

I shoot a lot of old barns/buildings/etc and needed the rise.

I agree with you 100% about Arca's design of the 810. The camera (IMHO) is absolutely the best LF made BUT the use of the 45 front standard on the 810 body is shocking.

Robert, I did not know there was an extension until Emmanuel mentioned it. Nevertheless, I should not have to pay for an extension when I paid for an 8x10 camera that should come WITH enough rise to work with 8x10 film and lenses. If you compare the price of a 4x5 to an 8x10 you will see that they basically sold us a 4x5 standard for twice the amount and no benefit. Had I known what I know now, I would have bought the parts to make my own, the 8x10 compact camera is a bit of a rip off IMO.

WHat pisses me off the most is the bracket, that 8.5 cm bracket is a POS only good for a 4x5 at best. I checked Badger and the difference in price between the 8.5 and the 30 cm is $6. This would have made a lot more sense for a 50 cm rail.

PS. How much is the extension and what is it called?

[Robert Fisher]

Jorge, take a breath and be calm. You still have the ultimate in a LF 810 body. Nothing is perfect. Anyway, Rod at PhotoMark sold me the extension for about $200. It appears in the Arca literature.

I use the extension about 50% of the time.

My Arca shipped with a rail for use with a lens up to 600mm. Works flawlessly.

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

Jorge, take a breath and be calm. You still have the ultimate in a LF 810 body. Nothing is perfect. Anyway, Rod at PhotoMark sold me the extension for about $200. It appears in the Arca literature.

I use the extension about 50% of the time.

My Arca shipped with a rail for use with a lens up to 600mm. Works flawlessly.

Well, I guess resigned is a better word....no? Unfortunately, my dealing with Rod and Photomark were not good, so I guess I will ask Jeff at Badger if he can get one.... still pisses me off though.. :mad: