Some thoughts for a beginner: Xenar or Optar?

[sdwfx]

Hi all, first poster here.

I'm hoping to get my first LF camera. Most likely, unless some windfall comes my way, it'll be a Crown Graphic.

My question has to do with the lens, if you have a choice between one with an Optar vs with a Xenar, assuming the price difference to be a non-issue, which one would you go for? or is this even worth questioning? or... should I be looking for another lens?

[Kevin Crisp]

A crown graphic is a great camera regardless of budget. In the "normal" focal length, the Optars are quite decent and the Xenar is very good too. I'd take whichever I could get with the the cleanest glass and the best working shutter. Either lens would be fine for shooting without movements.

[eddie]

i would also add try and get a speed graphics. it should cost about the same as a crown with the added benefit of a focal plane shutter. when you have a FP shutter you can use many different barrel lenses (no lens in a shutter). the barrel lenses are very cheap. you can get many that will have much better coverage than the two you ask about.

it should be very easy for you to find a speed (or crown) in good working order witha lens for $150-$250. good luck and keep us posted.

eddie

[Walter Calahan]

Either lens will serve you well.

A Crown is lighter, and a little smaller in box depth, then a Speed Graphic.

[Frank Petronio]

Actually the later model Xenars in the late model Synchro Compur shutters are best, the ones with the wide white plastic cocking levers.

[thetooth]

i have a crown with a optar and have been very pleased with it . it's not great for tons of movement but neither are crowns . i think i paid about $150.00 a few years ago .

just a note if you don't own any film holders try and find a deal that includes a few .

good luck

tim

[BradS]

The Xenar, Optar and Ektar that you are most likely to encounter on a Crown Graphic are all basically, the same. So, what you're really looking at is the shutter. The Optar will almost certainly be mounted in a Rapax (aka Graphex) shutter - which is not bad I guess. The Xenars are almost always mounted in some version of Synchro Compur...pretty good. and The Ektars can come in eiother of those or (more often) in a Kodak Flash Supermatic -- which some think is ok and others loath.

Personally, I'd look for any of these in a modern Syncho Compur shutter. The Rapax / Graphex would be my second choice andd the Supermatic a distant third. but, that's just me.

[steve simmons]

Before you buy a camera may I suggest some reading.

User's Guide to the View Camera by Jim Stone
Using the View Camera that i wrote
Large Format Nature Photography by Jack Dykinga

these are all books so try your local library or Amazon.com

Getting Started in Large Format

is a free article on the View Camera web site

www.viecamera.com

and then go to Free Articles


there are several articles that might be helpful


To play devil's advocate, I am not a fan of the cameras you are considering. They all have limited bellows and movements. For not that much more money there are several new folding cameras on the market such as the Chamonix, Shen Hao, and others - perhaps the Tachihara/Osaka, etc. that I would encourage you to consider. Call places such as Mid-West Photo, Badger Graphics, Lens and Repro, KEH Cameras and see what they suggest.


just my 2 cents


steve simmons

[thetooth]

i have to disagree with steve . i think the crown and speed graphic camera are fantastic for a beginner . for under $200.00 you will get a sturdy camera , lens and shutter , and maybe a few film holders . this was my first camera .

i have since moved to a wisner technical , 4 lenses , bag bellows , focusing cloth , etc. . i would have been apprehensive to start with this set up . graphic's are great for boosting large format confidence and control .

also what you invest in a graflex you will mostly likely get right out if it's not for you .

just a thought

thanks

tim

[sdwfx]

Thanks so much for encouraging and educational responses to help this bewildered newbie.

I have read a bunch of materials online and mulled over and over about moving to LF. Seems to me that the Crown Graphic provides an entry level platform that will allow me just to get accustomed to the LF workflow first (coming from MF folders and SLR's).

Based on what you guys are telling me, a Xenar with Synchro Compur shutter is one of the "better" buy out there. There's a guy selling one locally, pretty much brand new (box and manuals included), with Graphlok back. But he's asking for too much at the moment. I'll try to get it down to a more reasonable pricing.

As an aside, what you guys think about Super Speed Graphic? is that closer to the Speed Graphic or Crown Graphic feature-wise?

[redrockcoulee]

What I found I did not like with my Crown Graphic was the inconveince of shooting verticals. At least the Super Graphic allows that. A used Tachihara is not much more expensive than a Speed graphic.
IMHO the main way to get into LF is with a used camera cause if you decide that it is not for you or you wish a different or better system you'll get most of your monies back or sometimes even a profit.

Go for it

[Bill_1856]

The late Xenars came in a Copal shutter, which is worth paying a little extra for.
Don't forget to look at the Busch Pressman model D, which is the same weight as a Crown Graphic and has revolving back for both vertical and horizontal images.
The Speed Graphic, with its independent focal-plane shutter, was a good idea before WW2, when between-the-lens shutters were less reliable, and many of the big lenses were shutterless. I can't think of any reason to get on today (compared with the Crown).

[John Kasaian]

Super Speeds don't come cheap! You might want to check out www.graflex.org for tons on information on these cameras. Argueably, a Super or a Crown Special (the one with the top mounted range finder) could be considered the pick of the litter if you come across a reasonably priced example in excellent condition.
FWIW I think condition plays a big part. They were (are?) professional cameras that worked for a living. I seen several that have been literally worn out. Even bellows with pinholes in an otherwise excellent camera presents a problem since replacing the bellows might cost more than buying another camera. For handheld large format work they are pretty incredible, but for other uses you might find yourself wanting more perspective control in which case a monorail could be a low cost entry worth considering.
Which ever one you get---have fun!

[Kirk Fry]

A graphic is not a view camera. It is a very large point and shoot... Ja, Ja you can look at the ground glass etc. but it is not a view camera. Once you have all the other falderall you need. (Tripod, meter, focusing cloth, film holders, loupe) why not toss in a CC400 series calumet camera as an accessory for $99. Now you got a real view camera too. (Of coarse that xenar will not do now, but welcome to LF) K

[Dan Fromm]

As an aside, what you guys think about Super Speed Graphic? is that closer to the Speed Graphic or Crown Graphic feature-wise?Um, Graflex Inc's terminology is a vast source of confusion.

The Super Graphic is a metal-bodied 4x5 press camera with a cammed viewfinder and rotating back. Its inner (in the box) and outer (on the door) bed rails are not linked so short lenses that make infinity while on the inner rails are hard to focus. Pacemaker Graphics (Speed and Crown) and, IIRC (don't have my reference material ready to hand, am not going to look on www.graflex.org for you, you go there) Anniversary Graphics (Speed) have linked rails and are easier to use with short lenses.

The Super Speed Graphic is a Super Graphic with a normal lens (also one telephoto) in a leaf shutter with top speed of 1/1000. It does not have a focal plane shutter like a Speed Graphic.

When Singer, Graflex' last owner, shut Graflex down they sold the Super Graphic dies to Toyo. So there are also Toyo Graphics floating around that are essentially Super Graphics made in Japan.

[al olson]

I owned a Super Graphic from '58 to '62. It was a great camera, but I traded it in for a 35mm????

About 6 years ago I found a Toyo model in what appeared to be new condition at Adorama. I couldn't resist, partly for nostalgic reasons, and have been using it as one of my 4x5s. It has all the frontal movements, very liberal movements I might add. The rear film plane only rotates, no tilts, swings, etc. It is a very durable camera, however, and lighter than my Linhofs.

Unfortunately, those bellows that looked almost new had pinholes in almost every corner. I have replaced the bellows and with a slight modification retained the electrical connectivity between the shutter release and the lensboard. I would highly recommend using the flashlight test on the bellows before buying.

I was fortunate on ebay to find a 90mm and a 9" Raptar, both mounted on Super Graphic boards and both cammed for about $250 each, which gives me more flexibility because the Super is easier to pack out in the field. With the rangefinder I am able to check out my depth of field and sometimes I shoot using the sports finder and a monopod.

Also with regard to the Super Speed Graphic (which has the 1/1000 speed shutter), the shutter cocking mechanism is worked by rotating the lens hood. These are notorious for their mechanical failures. I would avoid the Super Speed unless the lens/shutter has been replaced with an alternative lens/shutter.

[steve simmons]

Now that you are getting a lot of conflicting advice I hope you will followup on the reading I've suggested.

I would start with a good folding camera with a 150mm or 210mm lens. It will cost a little more initially but it might lesson the likelihood that you will get discouraged with a graphic style camera. These cameras will help you learn to work more slowly on a tripod and use sheet film but their movements are limited, their bellows are limited. I would also encourage you to stay with a new shutter - Copal if you can. I know people love and adore the older lenses and shutters but they can be more problematic.


steve simmons

[Chauncey Walden]

I've never been tempted to acquire a Crown Graphic. The Speed Graphic gives you the option of using interesting (and cheap!) barrel lenses and if you are halfway handy it is easy to add forward tilt. At one time I had 4 of them (none of which I paid more than $50 for), now down to just one with a Graflok back and forward tilt. The Busch Pressman is a little jewel of a camera, bulletproof metal construction, rotating back, and forward tilt, with the principal con being the small unique lensboards that require a little effort to make your own. The B&J Watson press is an overlooked camera, IMO. All metal, rotating back, forward tilt, and standard Graphic-type lens boards. Its con would be (to some) that it won't accept Grafmatic holders. That leaves the rare Meridian, which impressed me the one time that I saw one, and, my favorite, the incomparable, but rarely budget, Technika. Bottom line, if you are thinking of a Crown, get a Watson - it will do more and cost less.

[Dan Fromm]

Um, Chauncey, I heard the "Speed Graphic with focal plane shutter better, Crown Graphic without" argument from Ken Ruth way back when. In theory, yes, in practice, maybe.

Now I have one of each (2x3, not 4x5), also a Century Graphic, and a heap of lenses, many in barrel. I've found that the short cameras are better for short lenses, the long camera is better for long ones. And because I'm shooting 2x3 I hang most of my lenses in barrel in front of a relatively inexpensive #1 and have the best of both worlds. Barrel lenses, precisely timed apertures shorter than 1/30. Basically, ya' can't do it all with a Crown or a Speed, ya' need one of each.

[sdwfx]

Um, Graflex Inc's terminology is a vast source of confusion.

The Super Graphic is a metal-bodied 4x5 press camera with a cammed viewfinder and rotating back. Its inner (in the box) and outer (on the door) bed rails are not linked so short lenses that make infinity while on the inner rails are hard to focus. Pacemaker Graphics (Speed and Crown) and, IIRC (don't have my reference material ready to hand, am not going to look on www.graflex.org for you, you go there) Anniversary Graphics (Speed) have linked rails and are easier to use with short lenses.

The Super Speed Graphic is a Super Graphic with a normal lens (also one telephoto) in a leaf shutter with top speed of 1/1000. It does not have a focal plane shutter like a Speed Graphic.

When Singer, Graflex' last owner, shut Graflex down they sold the Super Graphic dies to Toyo. So there are also Toyo Graphics floating around that are essentially Super Graphics made in Japan.

My goodness, even with your Reader's Digest summary, it still make my head spin :)

Don't worry, though, I *went* and read graflex.org. Many times, and my head still hurts every time I walk away from it.

No matter, I took the plunge, got a Crown Graphic yesterday, way cheaper than what the local guy wants for his, but since it's remote, I can't inspect the bellow with a flashlight. Just going by what the seller described. Oh well, we'll see in a couple of days... hopefully I won't scream... too loudly :D

[Chauncey Walden]

Dan, that's right! One camera is not enough! But, I don't think you or I have ever needed much excuse to pick up another lens or another camera. True, the Speed's jump from 1/30 to T can be a nuisance at times but that's why there are a couple of lenses with shutters in the bag. And, I've never been able to use a lens shorter that a 65 Super Angulon on the Speed, but, that is plenty short. On the other hand, it is amazing that a camera that old can still reliably make 1/1000, and with all that is going on in that body with curtain and springs and gears all whirring around, that the images can come out so good. I enjoy using one.

[Frank Petronio]

The Speed's shutter operation isn't exactly obvious, especially for a "first" camera. Really, do yourself a favor and just get a real simple, generic, run of the mill but late model (top rangefinder, Xenar or Optar lens, in as late a model shutter) as you can afford.

Here is a good one, although I do not know the seller, it has the most modern shutter and set-up:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Crown-Graphic-Graflex-4x5-Rangefinder-Camera-Excellent_W0QQitemZ170196011008QQihZ007QQcategoryZ15247QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

This guy sell a lot of them, he is a reliable seller, this is one with an older Ektar that is a little less expensive but still good, he has more:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Graflex-Crown-Graphic-4x5-Latest-Top-RF-Kodak-Ektar_W0QQitemZ160210299414QQihZ006QQcategoryZ15247QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

You can find them for $100 or $200 less if you are patient but then you have to worry whether it'll be good or not. Spend a little extra and get one that you know is working fine from a good seller.