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View Full Version : Vocabulary...i.e. Whole/half Plates?



GaryT
17-Feb-2008, 08:06
New forumite trying to figure outsome of the vocabulary used on these pages. "Whole Plate" camera for instance... the search function only yields threads where it's discussed without describing what it is exactly!

I'm not new to LF..have been working in 4X5 and 8X10 since the late 70's (studio food photographer) but have admitedly not kept up with camera/film developments in a number of years. Seems some things have changed:o

Anyone care to enlighten me???

thanks-
Gary

wfwhitaker
17-Feb-2008, 09:44
Not a development; more of a regression. It refers to an earlier designation of film plate sizes. Whole plate is 6-1/2 x 8-1/2 inches, half plate is 4-3/4 x 6-1/2 inches and quarter plate is 3-1/4 x 4-1/4 inches. These days the terminology is usually intended to describe film although there are still plate practioners out there, so it can become confusing. Most notably there has been an apparent resurgence in interest in the 6 1/2 x 8 1/2 film size, also referred to as "whole plate" even though it's film.

Ash
17-Feb-2008, 09:47
In light of the regression in a 'digital' time, I think we should rename it, Wholegrain etc.... a whole 6.5x8.5's worth of film grain :D

GaryT
17-Feb-2008, 09:59
Thanks...so presumably, these whole/half/quarter plate dimensions are film sizes with specific holders and cameras? Is film available in these dimensions or is it cut down from more standard sheet film size?

Trying to see the advantage to working in this kind of format and am a bit puzzled as it seems like it could be substantially more difficult to come by than what is still commonally available (4X5, 8X10) and unless the end result is contact sheet printing, wouldn't it be easier to simply crop?

thanks again (and I appreciate the *wholegrain* term!).

David Karp
17-Feb-2008, 10:25
Thanks...so presumably, these whole/half/quarter plate dimensions are film sizes with specific holders and cameras? Is film available in these dimensions or is it cut down from more standard sheet film size?

Trying to see the advantage to working in this kind of format and am a bit puzzled as it seems like it could be substantially more difficult to come by than what is still commonally available (4X5, 8X10) and unless the end result is contact sheet printing, wouldn't it be easier to simply crop?

thanks again (and I appreciate the *wholegrain* term!).

Ilford and others make film in WP size. The advantages of WP for some of us include:
-Cameras are noticeably smaller and lighter than 8x10, yet the negative is nearly as large.
-Cameras are not much larger than a 5x7 camera, yet the negative is significantly larger.
-Many lenses that cover 4x5 and 5x7 cover WP, but not 8x10. These lenses are often smaller than the corresponding lens that would cover 8x10.
-The WP format is a nice shape, and the size is very nice for viewing handheld.

GaryT
17-Feb-2008, 10:36
Thanks David-that helps me to understand this "newfangled" concept!

Gordon Moat
17-Feb-2008, 12:08
You might find these terms when looking at lenses too. Very early cameras used plates, prior to the introduction of film. So early lenses might indicate what plate size would best fit the coverage of the lens, though sometimes that was only at portrait distances, and not at infinity.

http://hbh.gordonmoat.com

This link is a listing of Holmes, Booth & Haydens lenses. Several of the people responding to the request for information have indicated whether their lens was 1/4, 1/2 or Full (Whole) plate. One nice thing is that a 1/4 plate lens, like the one I have, will just cover 4x5 modern film without movements, and at portrait distances, as shown in this image (http://www.gordonmoat.com/life_20.html). A 1/2 plate lens would cover modern 4x5, and allow for some movements.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat Photography (http://www.gordonmoat.com)

numnutz
17-Feb-2008, 12:54
When I started my career in photography the studio had a copy camera that use to take whole plate sized glass plates that were cut down the middle to 8½ x 3¼ inches. These used to take 4 copy negatives on each plate with a negative size similar to 16 on 120 film. The plates were supplied pre-cut by Ilford and were Orthocromatic used for B&W originals and we had a small supply of Panchromatic plates for the occasional colour originals. We stopped using the camera when Ilford stopped manufacture of glass plates in the early 1970's Unfortunately I don't know what happened to the camera or indeed its manufacturer.

nn :)

GaryT
17-Feb-2008, 13:04
Thanks for the link Gordon...fascinating stuff and I learned a thing or two or three!

Not the least was the term "Waterhouse stops". In addition to being a full time studio photographer, I've started teaching digital photography at the college level and I've tried to draw correlations to modern technology with an understanding of where it came from. So as to not get too far removed, I've limited my discussions to the photographic hardware of the 50's and 60's (of which I have first hand experience) but will now be able to incorporate a bit of older technology as well.:)

Can I assume that the term "plate" came from the use of actual plates in place of film? Glass, metal or some other material? And that the use of film in these sizes is named such as a nod to an earlier time?

Ole Tjugen
17-Feb-2008, 14:15
Yes, "plate" really means plate as in glass or metal.

A curoius fact is that if you measure a modern film, you will find that it is about 3mm smaller in each direction than the nominal size. So a 4x5" film isn't really 4 inches by 5 inches; it's just a little bit smaller! This was made the standard back when plate cameras were still most common, so that the new thin films could be placed in sheet metal adapters and used in the old cameras.

"Plate sizes" were less common in continental Europe. The plate sizes there were standardised very early in the "cm sizes" - 9x12cm, 13x18cm, 18x24cm, 24x30cm, 30x40cm and so on. These are still standard film sizes (less about 3mm).

lenser
17-Feb-2008, 14:21
Hi, Gary.

If you are looking for lots of info on older equipment, I've found Cameraeccentric.com to be a fascinating resource. Go to his info button and look through the catalogs that he has scanned of antique and vintage gear. If you click on one of the covers, it opens into the full catalog with all the makers hype as well as some very interesting performance charts.

Have fun.

Tim

GaryT
17-Feb-2008, 14:45
Thanks Tim. Don't really have an interest in older cameras per se...but always enjoy looking.

In the meantime I've been trying to find my Calumet catlaog from 1970 ish. Was hoping to post the page on the Calumet "Wide" that you mentioned in another thread.

Gotta be around here somewhere...

Ernest Purdum
17-Feb-2008, 16:16
"Continental" sizes have been expressed in millimeters for a long time, but the "plate" sizes go back to the Continent, to France specifically, where the original "official" daguerrotype camera established the 1/1 size (still another way of saying Whole Plate).

There are still more oddities. Half-Plate isn't really 1/2 of a Whole Plate and there was also a Double Quarter-Plate size for awhile, besides such bewildering terms as Cabinet, Boudoir, Gem and others.

If you run across sizes being expressed with the larger dimension first, all that means is that the writer or speaking is following practice common in the U.K..

The term Waterhouse Stop is often misused for any aperture reducing device other than an iris diaphragm, but it really refers only to a plate with a hole in it which slips into a slot in the lens barrel and eventually gets lost. (Well, at least usually.) They are mostly associated with very old lenses, but some relatively newer lenses used by the printing industry have Waterhouse slots in addition to irises. Funny shaped holes were used to control the shape of the tiny dots making up a newspaper picture.

GaryT
17-Feb-2008, 17:37
" but it really refers only to a plate with a hole in it which slips into a slot in the lens barrel and eventually gets lost. (Well, at least usually.)

Thanks for the further clarifications.

I should start calling my keys "waterhouse Stops" as they are often lost also:)

I'm thinking as I read these answers how great the internet is for accessing this kind of information. As a kid in the 60's I scoured high and low for information on photography, usually ending up with Popular Photography or Modern Photography as the most available sources (and they were generally concerned with reproducing lens and film tests where everything looked pretty much the same to me!)