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View Full Version : Camera Rails show up in my pictures (wide angle lens)



cotdt
30-Jan-2008, 16:11
Hi, I'm using a 90mm moderate wide angle lens on my Speed Graphic, and the bottom rails show up in all my pictures. How can I fix this problem?

Dan Fromm
30-Jan-2008, 16:20
Drop the bed. Visit www.graflex.org to learn how.

When you do it, be very careful. The bed must be retracted completely. If you don't do this before dropping the bed, you'll damage the links that connect the inner bed rails to the outer. Same thing when returning the bed to its normal position. You have been warned.

cotdt
30-Jan-2008, 16:22
Thanks!

David Karp
30-Jan-2008, 16:35
Check this out: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/cameras/pacemaker/

I have a photo and description on how to do it with a Crown.

Mick Noordewier
30-Jan-2008, 16:45
David, Dan,

Here's a question that I have been unable to answer by searching graflex.org.

When you've dropped the bed for a short lens (90mm or less), the lens remains inside the body on the part of the focusing rail above the hinge. Can you still use the focus knobs on the bed to adjust focus? Or do you just push/pull the lens on the upper track?

When the bed is dropped on my Crown there is no longer a smooth linkage between the upper and lower parts of the rail, unless I press down with my finger on the hinge while focusing. I'm trying to figure out if that is normal, or if mine is damaged in some way.

-Mick

Gene McCluney
30-Jan-2008, 18:50
David, Dan,

When you've dropped the bed for a short lens (90mm or less), the lens remains inside the body on the part of the focusing rail above the hinge. Can you still use the focus knobs on the bed to adjust focus? Or do you just push/pull the lens on the upper track?

When the bed is dropped on my Crown there is no longer a smooth linkage between the upper and lower parts of the rail, unless I press down with my finger on the hinge while focusing. I'm trying to figure out if that is normal, or if mine is damaged in some way.

-Mick

I'm not David or Dan but I can answer the question. The focusing bed-rails on a Crown Graphic are "articulated" at the fold, and yes, if your front lens standard remains on the short part of the rails inside the shell of the camera you can still use the focusing knobs to move the lens in and out a modest amount. Not all Graphic cameras have "articulated" rails...the Super Graphic does not. Some wide-angle lenses, such as a 65mm Super-Angulon I have are mounted in helical focusing mounts, which you rotate to focus just like on a medium-format camera. This must have been an option at one time. Of course this lens is super-wide on 4x5 and remains almost fully inside the camera shell when in use.

If you have a type of Graphic that does not have articulated rails, you can use a recessed lensboard to put your front standard on the main rails, and you can even drop the bed, as the standard Graphic front standard has front rise and tilt to bring the front standard back into parallel with the film plane.

David Karp
30-Jan-2008, 19:04
Nothing to add. I have not played much with a Speed. My understanding is that the Crown is a bit more wide-angle friendly as mentioned by Gene. It handles my 75mm with no problem whatsoever.

Gene McCluney
30-Jan-2008, 19:48
Nothing to add. I have not played much with a Speed. My understanding is that the Crown is a bit more wide-angle friendly as mentioned by Gene. It handles my 75mm with no problem whatsoever.

The Crown would have the film plane closer to the front than a Speed (the focal plane shutter on the Speed requiring a deeper body), therefore a given focal length lens would focus infinity further out on the rail.

Mick Noordewier
30-Jan-2008, 20:57
Gene,

You are indeed a precise provider of information. This answer had eluded me over on graflex.org.

-Mick

Gene McCluney
30-Jan-2008, 21:14
Gene,

You are indeed a precise provider of information. This answer had eluded me over on graflex.org.

-Mick

Thank you. I use a Crown Graphic and a Super Graphic all the time, so I am quite familiar with them, and I have carefully looked at a Speed Graphic.

Dan Fromm
31-Jan-2008, 03:58
The Crown would have the film plane closer to the front than a Speed (the focal plane shutter on the Speed requiring a deeper body), therefore a given focal length lens would focus infinity further out on the rail.Gene, I think what you meant to say is that a Crown's minimum flange-to-film distance is less than the equivalent Speed's minimum flange-to-film distance. This is why the shortest focal length that will make infinity on a Crown won't make infinity on the equivalent Speed.

Bill_1856
31-Jan-2008, 08:19
Unfortunately (and incrediously), recessed lensboards were never made for Speed/Crown Graphics. When they were designed, 90mm was the widest lens that was generally available which would cover 4x5, and left almost no room for movements.

Gene McCluney
2-Feb-2008, 19:18
Unfortunately (and incrediously), recessed lensboards were never made for Speed/Crown Graphics. When they were designed, 90mm was the widest lens that was generally available which would cover 4x5, and left almost no room for movements.

But, on this forum or APUG, sometime back, was a long post by someone who made their own recessed board for his Graphic. So, it is not rocket science, and is a viable method to get the front standard out onto the rails a bit further.

Also, ones choice of lens "type" relates to where infinity focus is found. A more modern Super-Angulon type wide angle will focus infinity further out on the rails than the older Angulon type wide angle. This can make the difference between having the rails intrude on the negative, or not.

Dan Fromm
3-Feb-2008, 06:33
Also, ones choice of lens "type" relates to where infinity focus is found. A more modern Super-Angulon type wide angle will focus infinity further out on the rails than the older Angulon type wide angle. This can make the difference between having the rails intrude on the negative, or not.Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

In the case on my 65/8 Ilex (think SA) on my 2x3 Speed, no. That lens on my Century, no again.

One can't count on Gene's idea being correct.

Gene McCluney
3-Feb-2008, 13:18
Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

In the case on my 65/8 Ilex (think SA) on my 2x3 Speed, no. That lens on my Century, no again.

One can't count on Gene's idea being correct.

I'm sorry, I should have been more specific....I was referring to 90mm lens comparisons. And with that in mind, a 90mm Super-Angulon (type-made by several manufacturers) will sit further out on the rails than the 90mm Optar, or 90mm Angulon.
A 65mm lens is going to be on the short rails inside the camera, regardless, unless it is retrofocus. I have a 75mm Komura wide-angle that is a semi-retrofocus design that sits on the main rails for infinity focus. (On a Crown or Super Graphic)

Dan Fromm
3-Feb-2008, 14:13
Gene, I wrote a about a 65 mm lens on a 2x3 camera, not about a 4x5. 2x3 Graphics' boxes and outer rails are shorter than those of the 4x5s you have in mind. A 65 on a 2x3 Graphic is roughly equivalent to a 90 on a 4x5.

I haven't experimented to find the shortest focal length that can be used on my cameras without dropping the bed. I do know that it lies between 65 and 80 mm. The bed has to be dropped with the 65 Ilex I mentioned, had to be with a 65/6.8 Raptar, doesn't with an 80 WF Ektar. The Ilex and WF Ektar make infinity on Century and Speed, the Raptar didn't on the Speed. That Raptar was the reason I bought my Century.

Bill, there were lenses shorter than 90 mm that claimed to cover 4x5 for much of the time that Graphics were in production. For example the Ser. VIIb Cooke, Meyer W/A Aristostigmat, f/18 Protars, Hypergons, ... Graflex Inc, predecessors and successors, didn't offer any of them as standard issue. There's a reason why Graphics have drop beds.