Camera comparison

[jwarren116]

Right now I'm using a B&J 5x7 fitted with a 4x5 back. It gets the job done. But it's big, and bulky. And I feel like I'm carrying my Eastman No.2D. Which doesn't really work when I'm hiking or backpacking. I decided I would spend a little money for a nice compact field camera. I did my share of research, but before I made any final choices I thought it would be wise to come to those that know best. I've narrowed it down to three cameras. First is the Toyo 45CF. It's the cheapest, but is also the most limiting. Second is a Tachihara Cherrywood 4x5 (I couldn't find a model number, do they only make one 4x5?). It seems pretty similar to the Toyo, with a few more movements. Finally, I found the Horseman 45 Woodman. Seems to be the most solidly constructed, with a pretty decent set of movements.

Now we get to the rest... the lens I've been using is a Schneider SA 90 XL. The B&J is tight on movements with the flat lens board I made. I found the Toyo's minimum bellows extension with a flat board is 80mm. The Tachihara's minimum is 65mm, and the Horseman's minimum is 45mm. In that sense, the Horseman seems to take the cake. The Toyo has the bulkiest dimensions and it's the heaviest (by a few ounces), the Tachihara and Horseman are close in size.

And the financial breakdown (I'm going to do some more shopping around):
Horseman: $898
Tachihara: $779
Toyo (through the MAC-on-Campus program): $626

I'm favoring the Horseman, but want to get some more opinions. My guess is the Horseman would be the sturdiest body. Does anyone have experience with the cameras or any words of advice? I'd definitely appreciate it. I'm going to continue my research, and see if I can make some treks to retailers where I can look at them in person first. Thanks again for the help folks. It's always appreciated!

Links to each:
Toyo - http://www.adorama.com/TY45CF.html
Tachihara - http://www.adorama.com/VW45FC.html
Horseman - http://www.adorama.com/HMW45.html

[neil poulsen]

What about the Shen Hao? I don't use one, but many do. There've been a lot of posts about this camera on this site. You can do a search.

They're reasonable in price, a bag bellows for wide angle is available, they have medium format back capability, they're nice looking, etc.

Here's a link at www.badgergraphic.com, where you can look at the camera.

http://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=120

[Rob_5419]

Hmmm...you've got a bit of a dilemma. Already kitted out with a sturdy but heavy 5x7" camera and downsizing...

The Shen Hao is nicely built and competes well with the Tachihara. I don't find the Horseman woodman any more stable than these two - all three are in the same league, and their price reflects it. You can only use DDS and grafmatics with some of these unless you're going to buy an international back (some of the other choices have this issue too, but others don't even accept international graflock backs). And you probably will need to factor in the cost for a dedicated wide-angle bellows, rather than crumple your new standard bellows.

If you were coming from 35mm or medium format, I think you'd be happy with any of the three choices you've listed. The problem with any of these three you've chosen, is that they are all going to come across as flimsy compared to what you're used to. All three are competent. Out of your three, there isn't much difference between the Horseman and the Tachihara exc. for user features. The Shen Hao also compares favourably with the Tachihara.

Head and shoulders above these is the impeccableWista SW: the Tachihara and the Horseman and especially the Toyo are far flimsier. Only the Wista has a true lock down facility, operated by bilateral levers for the front standard horizontal tilt; front extension, rear shift in addition to all the standard lock-down wheels. It has a great range of movements with rear lateral shift - somewhat unusual in a small and compact field camera, without going overboard with rear rise which would destabilise the camera's camera. You can shift the tripod mount to stabilise the camera according to your focal length using either of the tripod holes. The Wista SW can take a 90mm XL Super Angulon lens which needs to be disassembled with the rear element being retro-fitted into the front standard. It is far sturdier than any of the three you've listed although the price is slightly higher. These tend to sell for similar to the cost of your Horseman in the cherrywood version. Got to say, the Japanese cherrywood is simply stunning with its dovetail design for complete rigidity.

[John Bowen]

Since you haven't finished your research, I would suggest you wait a few more weeks for Richard Ritter to introduce his new Ultra Light Weight small view camera. It is designed on the same Carbon fiber chasis he uses with his ULF cameras. There is a thread here titled Old Mans Camera http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=29532

I don't think Richard has final pricing yet, but it just might fit your needs, and is expected in the not too distant future (think weeks, not months)

I own a RR ulf 7x17 and am on Richard's waiting list for his new camera. I don't yet know how much it will cost, but I do know the price will be fair and will have extreme movements and rigidity in a very light weight package. One other benefit of working with Richard, is the ability to have your camera customized. I had my 7x17 camera customized to accept my current lensboards, I had the bail on the back switched because I am left handed. Just try doing that with an "off the shelf" camera.

Good luck in your quest,

[Bill_1856]

The 4x5 Nagaoka (same as Anba Ikeda) only weighs 2.5 pounds. It is the basic Deardorf/Tachihara design, and uses Technika lensboards. They come up frequently on ebay for about $400.

[jwarren116]

My original goal was to stay at or under $1000, seeing as I'm still in college with limited finances. I think the Wista SW would be out of my reach. It looks like B&H is selling it for about $1800. The Wista DX runs just shy of $1200, and I could probably swing (no pun intended, honestly). I'll do some more looking into the DX, and I'll keep an eye out for the Ritter. I'm also trying to keep an eye out on eBay and KEH.

[Ed Richards]

Unless you really need that monster lens, it will really limit what you can use, how stable the camera will be, plus few of them will take advantage of the movements. On 4x5, a standard 90mm would be much smaller, fit the cameras better, and make a more stable package for a field camera. Plus you could probably sell it and buy a replacement lens and camera for the proceeds.

[thetooth]

i am in about the same position as you . i am looking to up grade from a graflex , looking to keep what ever i buy under $1500.00 . have been thinking long and hard about the ebony rw45 . i already have two lenses 90-mm 6.8 grandogon and a fuji 250-mm 6.3 . it's a tough choice . the shen hao is very appealing at $650.00 , but would like it to have a longer bellows extension because i would like to get into some macro work . good luck with your decision .

[John Bowen]

Tooth,

You will note that Richard Ritter posted in the "Old Man's Camera" thread, referred to above, that his camera would be available with bellows of 28,32,36 or 40 inches as options. That ought to help with your macro work...

[Brian Ellis]

Since Wistas are out of your price range I won't comment except to say that I respectfully disagree with Rob about their merits compared to other cameras costing quite a lot less. I'd forget the Toyo CF too, without back swing and tilt you're losing a lot of the benefits of LF photography IMHO.

That leaves Tachihara, Shen Hao, Horseman, and one in the same class that you didn't mention, the Chamonix. I'm not sure what the benefits of the Horseman are supposed to be and I've never seen one so I can't comment on it.

I've owned and used a Tachihara, Shen Hao, and now a Chamonix. Each has its advantages. The things I didn't like about the Shen Hao were weight (6lbs) and short front extension (12" unless you fiddle around with using front base and axis tilt to extend the bellows out in front of the camera bed, which gains another 2" but which I thought was a PITA to do and isn't the most stable arrangement), and front tilt is base tilt rather than axis tilt (without more fiddling around) and I prefer axis tilt. The things I liked were very nice build quality, availability of bag bellows, and back shift which was nice to have but not really important to me since I just move the tripod and keep the lens and film centered. I liked everything about the Tachihara except for the lack of front axis tilt and maybe the inability to use a bag bellows though the bellows is very flexible and will allow the use of a 65mm lens so maybe it doesn't need a bag bellows. The bellows is 13" so you can use a 300mm normal lens with some limit on close-focusing distance but a little longer bellows would have been nice too. The Tachihara is well-built and they've been around for a long time so they're a known quantity.

I recently acquired a Chamonix, which you didn't mention but which bears looking at. I haven't yet used mine enough to form a judgement about it. But on paper it looks like it combines the best of all worlds - it's as light as a Tachihara but has axis tilt on the front and a longer (15" or so) bellows, plenty of movements, accepts a bag bellows (though Chamonix hasn't yet made one for the camera), and seems to be well made. With shipping it costs about $100 more than Tachiharas and Shen Haos in the U.S. at least.

[Luca Merlo]

If you hike, limit yourself to a 240-250 mm as maximum focal lenght and you are not interested in any macro work, I would definitely go for a Shen Hao. If, instead you are looking for a longer bellow draw, you can consider a Zone VI or a Wisner Technical field second hand.

Ciao from italy

[thetooth]

Tooth,

You will note that Richard Ritter posted in the "Old Man's Camera" thread, referred to above, that his camera would be available with bellows of 28,32,36 or 40 inches as options. That ought to help with your macro work...

yes i have read about it . i emailed richard last night and hope to here something back from him next week . thanks for the suggestion . there are so may options and so little money : )

[thetooth]

Since Wistas are out of your price range I won't comment except to say that I respectfully disagree with Rob about their merits compared to other cameras costing quite a lot less. I'd forget the Toyo CF too, without back swing and tilt you're losing a lot of the benefits of LF photography IMHO.

That leaves Tachihara, Shen Hao, Horseman, and one in the same class that you didn't mention, the Chamonix. I'm not sure what the benefits of the Horseman are supposed to be and I've never seen one so I can't comment on it.

I've owned and used a Tachihara, Shen Hao, and now a Chamonix. Each has its advantages. The things I didn't like about the Shen Hao were weight (6lbs) and short front extension (12" unless you fiddle around with using front base and axis tilt to extend the bellows out in front of the camera bed, which gains another 2" but which I thought was a PITA to do and isn't the most stable arrangement), and front tilt is base tilt rather than axis tilt (without more fiddling around) and I prefer axis tilt. The things I liked were very nice build quality, availability of bag bellows, and back shift which was nice to have but not really important to me since I just move the tripod and keep the lens and film centered. I liked everything about the Tachihara except for the lack of front axis tilt and maybe the inability to use a bag bellows though the bellows is very flexible and will allow the use of a 65mm lens so maybe it doesn't need a bag bellows. The bellows is 13" so you can use a 300mm normal lens with some limit on close-focusing distance but a little longer bellows would have been nice too. The Tachihara is well-built and they've been around for a long time so they're a known quantity.

I recently acquired a Chamonix, which you didn't mention but which bears looking at. I haven't yet used mine enough to form a judgement about it. But on paper it looks like it combines the best of all worlds - it's as light as a Tachihara but has axis tilt on the front and a longer (15" or so) bellows, plenty of movements, accepts a bag bellows (though Chamonix hasn't yet made one for the camera), and seems to be well made. With shipping it costs about $100 more than Tachiharas and Shen Haos in the U.S. at least.

how was your experience in buying the chamonix . did you buy direct from china ? i noticed a ebay store from china that had some camera's , but no 4x5's .

thanks

tim

[jwarren116]

I figure I should add a little more information I think is important. First, I use primarily wide angle lenses. I don't see myself using more than a 200, and I'd be willing to bet my longest lens will be a 150. Most of my photographs are landscape and architecture. So movements and weight are more important than long bellows or beds. And the shorter the minimum draw, the happier I am to avoid changing bellows or making recessed lens boards.

I did some quick research on a Shen Hao. I found Badger Graphic Sales (http://www.badgergraphic.com/) has a couple Shen Hao models. The HZX 4X5-IIA is dirt cheap, like previously mentioned, and seems to have some decent movements. I found a review saying the camera is pretty solid (I'm not expecting as solid as an Ebony for $645). The biggest downfall is that it is 6lbs. As far as size, it is slightly smaller than the others, which is a bonus when hiking.

I know it was mentioned that the 90 SA XL I'm toting around should be traded in, which in a sense it will be. It came along in a deal I couldn't pass up, and a couple times I've actually used it on my 8x10 with no movements. I'm looking into getting something around 120 in the near future, but for the time being I'm concentrating on getting a camera that weighs less than 10lbs. I'm going to make some calls in the morning to see if I can track down a Shen Hao within driving distance of San Francisco. Maybe try a few other cameras on for size, too.

[Eric Biggerstaff]

Check out the Zone VI (Wista) kit for sale here on the forum, may be just the thing you are looking for.