Identifying negatives after exposing ?

[blevblev]

I am doing Zone I / personal ASA tests on my new (to me) 4x5 camera. How do you keep track of which negative is which? Can you write on the back of the negatives somehow? Maybe china marker? Using roll film, the exposures keep themselves organized automatically, but obviously 4x5 film doesn't.

[Eric Woodbury]

I do a couple of things. One, put the information in the picture. It is a 4x5 neg and there is plenty of room. Two, altho not as good, to ID pix that are all developed together I clip the corners with fingernail clippers or scissors. One corner clipped means something, and two something else.

[blevblev]

I see problems with both of these ideas. First, you are supposed to focus on infinity, so putting the info in the picture wont work. The second one sounds like something you'd do after development - or do you do it in the dark? I'm more concerned with losing track of which negative was exposed with which asa setting when removing the negatives and developing them. I could always develop them one at a time, but that would take forever.

[David A. Goldfarb]

Once you've done it, you'll realize that the order is obvious. As you increase exposure, the density of the negs will be greater. Write down your exposures, and you'll be able to sort them after processing, even if they get out of order.

Then when you do the development time test, the negs will increase in contrast as the development increases, so you'll be able to sort those as well without any other means of identifying them.

[Vaughn]

Scratch the negatives on the emulsion side with something sharp (ice-pick?) as you take them out of the holders...l, ll, lll, llll, etc. These numbers would then refer back to your notes about what the camera/meter setting were.

Vaughn

[blevblev]

Vaughn,
That sounds like the answer I was looking for - that will work. Something small like a nail would probably be more convenient. Thanks.

[Morten]

Notching the holders. :)

But it will forever be part of the holder :-) and you will always know which holder and side of the holder the negative was during exposure. Do not interfere with the image area. Quickly done with a drill bit. Do a search on the forum.

BTW: Would (properly) notched holders reduce the resale value of the holder?

Best regards
Morten

[Bruce Barlow]

Notch the holders - use a Roman numeral system and fine files. Notch numbers on the flaps. I use different files for I's, V's and X's, with the I's at one end, the X'x at the other, and V's in the middle. No IV or IX, use four I's instead. File as deep as the groove. Richard Ritter demonstrates in his video "Camera Repair in the Field."

For Zone I Tests, you should be able to tell without marking - most dense: lowest ISO, least dense: highest ISO. It should be visible.

I would think carefully notched holders would be worth more to the discerning buyer - it's a pretty messy thing to do, and if I could buy them that way, I'd be thrilled. Instead, I'm good friends with my canister vacuum after about 75 holders in different sizes.

[Richard M. Coda]

I made some tiny film negatives (in a page layout program) 1-A, 1-B, 2-A, 2-B...

I had them output at the local service bureau. Cut them up, super-glued them to the side, right where it flares out before the hinges.

[blevblev]

re: "It should be visible" - right. It should be. But is it? I think it was Custer who said, "there SHOULD be friendly indians over that hill." I have done roll films where there are several exposures that don't make it above the fb+f density, so I still don't know which of those is which with sheets. Of course I'm not going to use one of them, so I guess I could start at the dense end of the spectrum and go backwards.

Notching the flaps is interesting - so that would make the notches appear on the edge of the film? I'll have to search for that...

[Bruce Barlow]

re: "It should be visible" - right. It should be. But is it? I think it was Custer who said, "there SHOULD be friendly indians over that hill." I have done roll films where there are several exposures that don't make it above the fb+f density, so I still don't know which of those is which with sheets. Of course I'm not going to use one of them, so I guess I could start at the dense end of the spectrum and go backwards.

Notching the flaps is interesting - so that would make the notches appear on the edge of the film? I'll have to search for that...

Sorry to sound irritated, but I've done many film tests and read many hundreds. If you don't screw up, you can see the differences in Zone I densities at the different ISOs. If you don't have densities above fp+f on more than one test negative. most likely you screwed up.

You can start counting at either end, since one is supposed to be right. When you find the right negative you line them all up from most to least dense. If there's nothing above fb+f on one or two, they're obviously not right, and don't need to be in correct sequence. They are underexposed (too high an ISO). Your copious notes on what you did should tell you which ones those are, as if it mattered, which it doesn't. Only the correct one matters.

Richard Ritter demonstrates flap notching in his DVD "Camera Repair in the Field." You can't see how messy it is to do on the video, so I advise having the vacuum handy.

The whole point of notching the film holder flaps is to have the notches appear on the negative, but be outside the image area. Roman numerals should match the number on the negative edge to the number you wrote on the holder with a Sharpie which can correspond to your field notes, or identify light leaks. etc. The biggest challenge is keepiing your wits about you when filing so that the Roman Numeral actually matches the Sharpie number and your brain doesn't wander and you file an extra notch (ask me how I know this to be a possible problem...).

Again, sorry to sound irritated. I've been color-correcting video all day, and am more than a little fried. It's the local high school's holiday concert video. If I have to listen to "Ave Maria" one more time I shall rend my garments. And it's late, and I'm hungry, and I'm pissed because I missed good friend Ted Harris's birthday even though I had it in my Palm (just didn't use it for a few days). Mondays. Time to pull the covers over my head and suck my thumb.

Cheers! Go forth and test! File to your heart's content! Life will be better for it!

[blevblev]

Re: "Sorry to sound irritated"

You must really be tired, because you don't sound irritated to me at all - but then I'm an inveterate curmudgeon myself. I appreciate the info. I ordered Richard Ritters DVD as well. Thanks.

[John Bowen]

Bruce,

You've got a Palm??? What for? You secretly using BTZS? HA!

One more point, why do you need to listen to the tape to do the color correcting???

Your wise ass friend,

John

[Jay Wolfe]

If you can get your hands on the book "Way Beyond Monochrome," there is a nifty way to code your filmholder with notches. It's a lot of work to set up, but it works great.

Also, Bruce is right. You don't need any type of coding for film tests. The results will be obvious, unless you screw up the exposures.

[blevblev]

There are 2 copies on Amazon, but they are $150+ each. Oops - there's one on eBay for $44 with a buy-it-now price. It's mine....

[Vaughn]

If you do alt printing and like to have the rebate show as part of the image (or might in the future), notching the film holders is a lousy idea.

Vaughn

[David A. Goldfarb]

Another interesting solution I've seen for identifying holders along the lines of Richard Coda's suggestion is to cut out a section about 2 or 3 inches wide in the film flap using a router, and to print out info on transparency film white on black (like a copyright notice and filmholder identifier number) which is then taped into the space. This could also be done with a high contrast film, of course, and if you're precise enough with a router table, it could be done on the side rail instead of the flap.

[Bruce Barlow]

Bruce,

You've got a Palm??? What for? You secretly using BTZS? HA!

One more point, why do you need to listen to the tape to do the color correcting???

Your wise ass friend,

John

I'm actually on my third Palm, having worn out the first two. I wear them out with the Calendar function, which kept my schedule sane for years. Which is why I missed Ted's birthday...I actually didn't use it for about a week while editinig, and his birthday came and went without it beeping at me.

Don't get me started on BTZS. Oops! Too late. Nice guy, incomprehensible book, and the notion of scaling development time to the second with the Palm software, and thus developing one negative at a time, is abhorrent to me. Imagine coming back from Maine, as we did, Mr. Bowen, with roughly 200 LF negatives to be developed one-at-a-time? The only thing that strikes me as more ridiculous than BTZS is semi-stand development...one at a time...for a half an hour...each...in the dark... My Maine negs, developed ten at a time, look lovely, thanks.

OK, have I inflamed enough different groups with this post? Wow! It's the following morning and I'm still grumpy!

And, "wise ass," :) you listen to the video's sound because you correct each shot in the editied timeline, so you have to watch the timeline. This is after editing the timeline and watching it to make sure you screwed up as few edits as possible. The edited timeline contains "Ave Maria" four times - once for each performance, with the solo performed by different students. One "Ave" performance in the master of the entire show, then the other three as DVD Extras, so three more Moms can see their young stars. Solo'ing the "Ave Maria" in the Holiday Festival of Music is a big deal for the students, and they deserve good treatment in the video, even if I hear the "Ave" in my sleep. All four need to be edited from the three-camera shoot, and then color corrected shot-by-shot. I'm done color-correcting, now all that's left is to import the good sound recording off the digital porta-studio to the timeline and sync it up. Which means...ulp...listening to it lots more...

[Leonard Evens]

I have some Riteway holders which let me set transparent tabs with numbers on them and which cover the trailing edge of the film. Of course, you can accomplish much the same thing by notching other film holders, but this way I don't run the risk of messing up a holder. In addition they have a neat locking mechanism holding the dark slide in place. With the holder in the camera, the lock is released automatically, but otherwise I have to press a button to remove the slide. This is much more secure and foolproof than the usual mechanism relying on turning something by hand to block the slide from opening. Those somethings---whatever they are called--- always become loose over time and are not a reliable safeguards.

[Ed Richards]

Notch the holders, using binary. You should only use Roman numerals to number glass plate holders.

Being able to identify the negative is critical to keeping notes on your shots, if you shoot many sheets or do alternative shots with different exposures or filters.

[Bruce Barlow]

Notch the holders, using binary. You should only use Roman numerals to number glass plate holders.

Being able to identify the negative is critical to keeping notes on your shots, if you shoot many sheets or do alternative shots with different exposures or filters.

You are joking, right? Binary is a pain, and only used by APUGgers...

[kev curry]

Heres an example of how its done using the Binary System.
This is the method recommended in ''Way Beyond Monochrome''.
It works very well and I think this system uses the least amount of notches for the greatest number of holders.
This is my Number 10 holder with number 9 on the other side.
The metal ruler has been cut to fit width ways across the holder then the notches were cut with a file. The ruler acts as the template while snipping or filling the notches. I found it easier to cut the notches on the holder with a pair of very small tipped sharp wire snips.

[kev curry]

Heres an example of the snips and the positioning of the ruler(template) on the inside of the flap while snipping or filling.
The template will allow you to mark 32 double holders 1 to 63 but adding another notch ie number 64 would double this amount!
Almost forgot to mention a handy tiny wee triangular file was put to use for notching the ruler.

[Morten]

This is the system I use. (found on the net somewhere..)

Three groups of max four marks each. 1s, 5s and 10s

This is my number 18 holder.

Morten :-)

[kev curry]

Heres how the notches are transfered to the negative making identification easy.
I used a black marker to highlight the notch marks on the neg just to insure it was obvious in the photo.

[Jim Jones]

Using the binary system, a small notch can indicate 0 and a larger notch can indicate 1. No templates or guides are necessary. Anyone who can understand f/ numbers shouldn't have any trouble at all with binary numbers.

[Blacky Dalton]

I met this guy and his wife at the LF Conference and this is how they number their sheet film holders.

http://www.jbhphoto.com/articles/filmholder1.htm

I tried and and it works fine for me.

B. Dalton

[kev curry]

I like the Binary System over the Roman Numeral system only because theres less work to do cutting less notches. The J B Harlin Method in the link above uses holder number 59 as an example of the roman numeral method. 10 notches are required to denote 59. With the binary system it would require 4 notches to denote 59 ie 32+16+8+3 = 59:cool:

[Vaughn]

I like the Binary System over the Roman Numeral system only because theres less work to do cutting less notches. The J B Harlin Method in the link above uses holder number 59 as an example of the roman numeral method. 10 notches are required to denote 59. With the binary system it would require 4 notches to denote 59 ie 32+16+8+3 = 59:cool:

Would not that be 5 notches? 110111

Or 6 if one used a notch to represent "0".

If Harlin's method was more Roman Numeral styled, he would need 7 marks (if he used symbols to represent only up to 10 -- XXXXXIX

If he used a notch to represent 50, it would only be 3 notches LIX

Sorry for being so anal...especially since I hate the idea of notching my holders.

Vaughn

[Brad Rippe]

I notched mine like Morten, but I used a small japanese woodworking file that required a lot of cleanup, tiny plastic particles go all over the filmholder.
I really like Kev's idea of using small snips. great idea.
My first 20 filmholders are labelled to 40, the next ones have a slightly different pattern that allows me to identify the next batch.
I really don't like having more than 40 pieces of exposed but undeveloped film sitting around.....
-Brad

[Jiri Vasina]

I did notch my holders knowing I'd lower their (possible) resale value. And I'm very happy with the result - it's much easier to keep track of the exposures. I do recommend it.

[John Bowen]

OK, have I inflamed enough different groups with this post? Wow! It's the following morning and I'm still grumpy!

And, "wise ass," :) you listen to the video's sound because you correct each shot in the editied timeline, so you have to watch the timeline. This is after editing the timeline and watching it to make sure you screwed up as few edits as possible. The edited timeline contains "Ave Maria" four times - once for each performance, with the solo performed by different students. One "Ave" performance in the master of the entire show, then the other three as DVD Extras, so three more Moms can see their young stars. Solo'ing the "Ave Maria" in the Holiday Festival of Music is a big deal for the students, and they deserve good treatment in the video, even if I hear the "Ave" in my sleep. All four need to be edited from the three-camera shoot, and then color corrected shot-by-shot. I'm done color-correcting, now all that's left is to import the good sound recording off the digital porta-studio to the timeline and sync it up. Which means...ulp...listening to it lots more...

What???? That seems about as much fun as Semi-Stand Development of 200 LF negatives.... No wonder you were GRUMPY :p

[Bruce Barlow]

Yeah, followed by a day and a half of making DVD copies (10 minutes apiece), immediately after which my computer took a fatal Windows error and crashed for good. Can't restart it.

I don't blame it.

[CG]

The only thing that strikes me as more ridiculous than BTZS is semi-stand development...one at a time...for a half an hour...each...in the dark... My Maine negs, developed ten at a time, look lovely, thanks.

Last I did a lot of negs at once, I used 4 up hangers to do the bulk of the work with the standard modes of processing in batches: N, N+something, N-something etc. as needed and quickly. That left plenty of time to do any "special" ones: inspection...things I would do one at a time.

C