Sinar shutter vibration issue

[Andrea Gazzoni]

Hi all,

i've recently mounted a sinar shutter on my sinar F2 camera.
I've seen that it produces a huge amount of vibration, visible even naked-eye.

The tripod was efficient until today, even with my heaviest lens (Symmar-S 360/6.8 on copal 3).

How can you Sinar F1/F2 users handle this shutter vibrations?
Is it possible that this shutter could be used only on sturdier cameras (i.e. Sinar P) ?

thank you in advance for your opinion
Andrea_on_the_way_of_using_a_lens_cap_as_a_shutter ;)

[Ken Lee]

"I've seen that it produces a huge amount of vibration, visible even naked-eye. "

Is the vibration visible in your photographs ? Is it before, or after the photograph has been taken ?

I have used mine at a variety of shutter speeds, and never noticed any ill-effects.

[Andrea Gazzoni]

Ken, I just tried to fire it without even inserting film in the camera.
A barrel 480mm lens was mounted too.
As far as i can see it would be nearly impossible to use it.
It does vibrate after the iris closes down.

thanks

[Bjorn Nilsson]

Yes, the shutter causes vibrations when it closes and recocks itself. I.e the very obvious vibrations comes after the exposure, not during it.
I used to worry about this too, until I checked at different speeds, with the Sinar shutter vs. a Copal 0 (on a 150mm lens) vs. "a flick of the wrist" (no shutter, just something black in front of the lens, taken out of the way for a breif moment). There was no difference.

//Björn

[Merg Ross]

Bjorn is correct in his description. I have used a Sinar shutter mounted on my 8x10 for many years without a problem. Also, I once did a speed test and found all speeds to be very accurate.

Give it a try with film, I don't believe that you will be disappointed. Please report back.

[Bjorn Nilsson]

When I ran my tests, I used a roll film back to make things easier (and cheaper too). The very fancy target was a folded up newspaper.
BTW, when I tried it I used an old Sinar F. I was about to go back to the shop with the shutter, when the salesman asked me to do some tests (as he apparently knew better...).

//Björn

[Andrea Gazzoni]

Good news!
So I will run some test with 1-2 spare b/w 120 rolls and post here the results.
thank you guys, can't wait to see how my apo nikkor behaves in front of some luminous west face in the sunset here in Italian Alps

p.s. Bjorn I was about to do the same ;)
it is always encouraging to hear that someone else had your same doubt

[Daniel Unkefer]

Andrea,

I have two Sinar Norma shutters in good shape, and they have never vibrated to any appreciable degree at all. Certainly not enough to affect any results, before, during, or after the exposure. But I have never used the modern mechanical shutter (and it sounds like maybe I don't want to).

[Jim Galli]

This is just my experience fwiw, probably nothing. I inherited a Sinar out at work when I took over the still photo lab. It had a 210mm Nikkor in the DB mount and the behind the lens Copal shutter. I couldn't get a decent picture with that camera no matter what. I finally took the cells from the Nikkor and mounted them in one of those Polaroid shutters from the CU-5 camera and mounted it direct to a new Sinar board, removed the big clanking Copal, and Voila, the Nikkor is making stunning pictures. Cell spacing? Shutter vibration? Dunno, but something was sure mucked up.

[Brian K]

I've used sinar auto aperture and expolux shutters in the studio for many years and with electronic flash they are great. With ambient light and especially with longer lenses or close focus work, the vibration of the shutter at 1/15, 1/8, 1/4 and 1/2 second can cause noticeable unsharpness.

[Armin Seeholzer]

As like a car a shutter should get service from time to time. To make shure all works propper! I have not at any time any sharpness problems on my Sinar P with the shutter, but he was checked at Sinar 3 years ago and I use it on a 80 kg studio stand!
But did not test it on my F1 for this I have the wides and the longs all in a normal Copal between lens shutter!
So I also prefer the short times on the shutter my most used are 1/15, 1/30 and 1/60 sec. with this times you are also on a normal stand save If the shutter is okay!

My two Copal/Sinar shutter cents, Armin Seeholzer

[Andrea Gazzoni]

I finally found the time to run some test with the Sinar Shutter.
This is the setup i used:


http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/1218/sinarshuttertestsetupru7.jpg


Test consists in a sort of a really poor “macro” setup with my 210/5.6 sitting on the front standard with his Copal 1 shutter, here the proper aperture is set at each shot, diaphragm open all time .
The clancking Sinar Auto-aperture Shutter is then fixed to the intermediate standard, here the time is set at maximum aperture.
On the rear standard I use a 120 roll film, not pictured here: to avoid vignetting from this un-hortodox setup I put a 6x4,5 mask on the roll film back, so 15 frames are available.

The rail reaches a total length of about 24” (600 millimeters).
What a high centre of mass has this camera with his rail clamp on a ball head…

Now the shots data, can’t remember the exact order but all the slow shutter times were used:

f stop time
64 32 sec (B)
45.5 15 sec (B)
32.5 8 sec
22.5 4 sec
16.5 2 sec
11 1 sec
8 ½ sec
5.6 ¼ sec

Subjects were a white Hyacinth and a Helleborus Niger:

24x30 centimeters proof (9x11 inch approx.), each frame is 6x4,5 centimeters

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/7633/proviniluq3.jpg

Detail of n.2 shot: F 16 speed 2 sec

http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/7809/provini5bia4.jpg

Detail of n.13 shot: F 45,5 speed 15 sec.

http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/4324/provini2wy8.jpg


Scans are made with my 0$ Agfa E25, so no brilliant result was expected ;-)
The two details are made scanning a very limited area (2,5x2,5 cm , 1x1 inch approx) of a single frame at 600 dpi.

As far as I can see the vibration the shutter produces does not affect the sharpness of the image.

Please feel free to give any hint,
a real newbie can take the wrong readings even with a terrible continuous light

Andrea

[Ken Lee]

Here's a 4x5 that was made recently with my Sinar shutter, at around 1 or 2 seconds. There is no vibration at all, as far as I can tell. I use mine all the time, indoors and outdoors. I use it whenever possible. The issue of vibration never occurred to me, until I read this post.


http://www.kenleegallery.com/images/forum/B51.jpg