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James Olson
27-Dec-2007, 19:57
I am new to pyro and have only developed a few negatives. The first seemed ok but the last batch was very unsatisfactory. I used fp4 plus film and developed in trays of pmk pyro for 8 and 1/2 minutes according to the directions. I used tf4 fixer. I then contact printed the negatives and they all turned out very dull and extemely low contrast.
They appeared muddy and a very gray color. I know there are many variables but
does anyone have an idea what I may be doing wrong. They were developed in trays
at 74degrees
Jim

RPNugent
28-Dec-2007, 06:51
Are you saying the negatives look muddy and gray or the contact prints. PMK negs look thin and a tad green if I remember correctly (haven't used it for a couple years), gray muddy contact prints sound like fogged paper.

James Olson
28-Dec-2007, 07:11
The contact prints are the ones that look gray and muddy. I might try reprinting on different paper to see if that was the problem . Thanks
Jim

bob carnie
28-Dec-2007, 07:37
James

I find that with Pyro negatives my normal starting filter pack is much higher than that of lets say same film developed in D76.

How do the negs look on the light box.... if ok I would suggest a higher paper grade.

If the negs do not look ok then you are back to the drawing board.

steve simmons
28-Dec-2007, 07:50
I find that with Pyro negatives my normal starting filter pack is much higher than that of lets say same film developed in D76.

There is no reason for this to be true unless you are underdeveloping your Pyro negs. Any of the staining developers are quite capable of priving negs that will print well on a vc or graded paper in the mid range of contrast.


The answer to the first question could be many

do the recent batch of negs look like the earlier batches?
is your paper developer exhausted?
was your paper fogged?

steve simmons

David Vickery
28-Dec-2007, 10:07
James,
The first thing to do is decide if the muddy prints are due to the film part of it or to the paper part of it. How does the film look? Is it flat and dense? Or just Flat? Is it under-exposed and over-processed?

I don't have much experience with PMK, but 74 degrees seems high for a Pyro based developer. In my experience with Pyro, it is a vigorous agent and I had to keep the temp down at or below 68 degrees in order to have enough control.
Based on what you said, my guess is that you over-processed the film.
Excessive Staining of the film can cause a muddy, flat print. When I did try PMK I thought that it produced too much staining and not enough contrast. But I did not work with it long enough to work that out. I switched to ABC and then SD-1.

N Dhananjay
28-Dec-2007, 10:16
The negative itself could be low in contrast. I am assuming your subject had enough contrast (both luminance range as well as local contrast) to start with. If you are using VC paper with pyro negs, you will often find low contrast prints. Keep in mind the green stain of a pyro neg and the fact that green light is low contrast light with VC papers. You might have to use much stronger filtration. It might help if you could give us more info - film used, paper used, paper developer etc. Cheers, DJ

lee\c
28-Dec-2007, 10:18
I agree with Steve's assessment. PMK is able to produce great looking negs. I did start to see the developer deteriorate (lose its umph) after about 22 mins. You did make up a new mixture when you developed the last batch didn't you? I consider working mixtures to be one shot. Use and toss.

lee\c

bob carnie
28-Dec-2007, 11:13
Have to disagree,
PMK negative vs D76 negative both properly exposed and developed will give you different starting points with your filter pack, I have never seen a Pyro processed negative printing at the same lower filter of the D76 negative. I would also add that a Rodinal processed negative will need a slightly higher filter pack than that of the D76 negative. I am printing from various process dev types weekly and this has always been the case in our shop.
The PMK that I use is the Gordon Hutchings Formula.
A basic VC filter starting point that I am finding for Pyro Negs, is g2 or g2 1/2 with an g5 second exposure.
A basic VC filter starting point that I am finding for D76 Negs, is g1 or g1 1/2 with an g5 second exposure.
Could be the water up here or something??



I find that with Pyro negatives my normal starting filter pack is much higher than that of lets say same film developed in D76.

There is no reason for this to be true unless you are underdeveloping your Pyro negs. Any of the staining developers are quite capable of priving negs that will print well on a vc or graded paper in the mid range of contrast.


The answer to the first question could be many

do the recent batch of negs look like the earlier batches?
is your paper developer exhausted?
was your paper fogged?

steve simmons

Brian Ellis
28-Dec-2007, 11:52
When I hear "gray and muddy prints" the first thing I think of is fogged or extremely outdated paper, the second thing is exhausted developer.

Bjorn Nilsson
30-Dec-2007, 05:51
Here's a link to what PMK negatives could look like (as well as Pyrocat HD negs).
http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Pyrocat2/pyrocat2.html

BTW, I agree with the other posters, from guessing that your negatives probably looks somewhat the same from your first successful run, there is something wrong in the printing stage. As other have stated too, some more data would help us help you.

//Björn

James Olson
30-Dec-2007, 06:44
I developed the film in trays one sheet at a time and mixed fresh developer for each sheet. I developed for 81/2 minutes at 74degrees and after the stop and fix cycles put
back in developer for 2 minutes according to the instructions. Paper developer was
ethol lpd and was fresh and paper was kentmere vc select glossy
thanks
Jim

Bjorn Nilsson
30-Dec-2007, 07:48
Hi again!
Well, does the negatives look very thin compared to the ones from the first successful run?

David Vickery
30-Dec-2007, 09:46
James, don't put the film back in the developer! Skip that completely. That step only builds up visible stain in the negative which is completely useless. The only pyro stain that is good stain is image forming stain, which develops during the initial development stage. It shouldn't be something that you can see.

steve simmons
30-Dec-2007, 09:57
For some reason Mr. Olson is not responding to the repeated questions

"How do these negs look compared to earlier ones that you feel proofed OK?"

Without an answer we can't help him.

steve simmons

James Olson
30-Dec-2007, 12:25
They do appear a little thinner but not much
thanks
jim

RPNugent
30-Dec-2007, 13:33
James
Have you reprinted the negs yet?
It still sounds like bad paper or fixer rather than a pyro negative development issue if you are getting muddy prints.

Bule
30-Dec-2007, 20:49
Your low contrast print is a function of the stain color and VC paper's response to it, which might be made worse by some other factors such as a low contrast negative, or high base fog or general stain. To determine whether it's a good negative, ie, properly exposed and developed, print it on graded paper. If you find it prints with the desired contrast on graded paper, the paper grade will tell you a lot about your negative. If it prints well on graded paper, it will also print well on VC paper, given the appropriate filtration. If you find it prints well on grade 2 paper, you should have no trouble getting a good print on VC paper, but if you find it requires a grade four or five paper, your negative is low contrast, and due to the stain color, might overwhelm the filtration available for VC paper. Developing a separate negative in D-76 won't tell you much of use about your pyro neg, but printing it on graded paper will.

steve simmons
31-Dec-2007, 07:52
Your low contrast print is a function of the stain color and VC paper's response to it,

If you have properly calibrated your personal EI and dev time this is not true. If you haven't then this could be true of any developer and film combination.

I am just amazed at the amount of misinformation that is posted about PMK and staining developers in general.

Any body who is interested in this topic should read The Book of Pyro by Gordon Hutchings and the article View Camera did a little over a year ago about how staining developers work. This article is available in the Free Articles section of the View Camera web site.

www.viewcamera.com


There is one spot left in Gordon's darkroom workshop at foto3 and those taking this class will come away with a thorough understanding of how a staining developer works.



steve simmons

Bule
1-Jan-2008, 03:30
Steve Simmons,

I'm a subscriber to your magazine, and respect your opinion, but I'm very sure I'm right in what I posted. Your response to my post is nonsensical. Obviously a properly calibrated negative wouldn't print with low contrast, but that's not the issue under discussion, and just as obviously, this issue pertains only to staining developers, and not "any developer and film combination". I've seen these pyro wars from the sidelines and have no desire to participate, but the gentleman who posted his question here has a right to an honest and accurate answer unmotivated by personal agendas or commercial interests. My diagnosis of the problem is in no way a criticism of PMK, and holds true for any staining developer. I used PMK for many years, and know its properties well. I've read Gordon Hutchings' book many times over the years, and of course, when the article on staining developers was published in your magazine, I took a special interest. I've been in contact with all of the panelists of that article, and shared my personal experiences with the staining developers I've used. All of the panelists are extremely well versed in the behavior of staining developers, and I'm sure they would all agree with my diagnosis and advice. I mean no disrespect, but your level of expertise in this subject does not qualify you to infer that I've posted "misinformation". You do yourself and your publication a disservice when you post in such a cavalier and uninformed way.

steve simmons
1-Jan-2008, 06:31
I have never had a problem using PMK and either vc or graded papers. You seem to imply that with PMK, which is the developer in question, and vc papers you will get a low contrast image. This does not have to be the case at all if you have properly calibrated your film and paper, and to make such an all encompassing statement is misleading. Since the poster seemed to do fine with his first couple of efforts something has apparently changed. I am not the only one who questions something after the development of the film - fogged paper, exhausted print developer, etc.

steve simmons

N Dhananjay
1-Jan-2008, 10:19
The lower contrast with VC papers and some pyro negs is fairly well documented. Take a graded paper that can accomodate a certain density range and a VC paper with a certain filter that can accomodate the same density scale. A D76 negative will typically print in reasonably similar fashion (ignoring differneces in the HD curve shape). However, with a negative that has a strong green stain, you are likely to find differences in the local contrast of the high values. The reason for this is the fact that the green pyro stain is a function of density and the highlights have correspondingly more stain - to clarify, I am talking here of the proportional image stain and not general stain that will make the whole negative look green and acts as base fog. VC paper uses two emulsions, one sensitive to blue light with a relatively steeper HD curve and one sensitive to green light which is lower contrast. The green stain in the highlights of stained neg permits more green light through and thus contributes to greater activation of the low contrast green sensitive layer. What this translates into is that the upper midtones and highlights on the print will seem to be shouldering off and will have lower local contrast.

The confusion seems to arise from the fact that some staining developers produce a stain that is different in color - Sandy King's Pyrocat HD, for example, produces a brownish stain and is thus a viable option for dual purpose negatives. I suspect PMK negatives also provide some variation - I have seen negatives with a fairly strong green looking stain and others which were not that green, maybe these differneces are a function of small contaminants in the water etc. I should hasten to add that these were visual inspections - maybe someone has densitometer readings to confirm this. But the basic principle is fairly sound in that strongly green stained negatives will print differently on VC papers than brown stained ones and green stain negatives will print differently on VC paper than on graded papers. Some people of course find this shouldering off a desirable feature in that it provides strong shadow contrast while allowing a long luminance range to be printed. Others who want strong highlight contrast are going to be frustrated by the look of the prints.

Cheers, DJ

steve simmons
1-Jan-2008, 11:07
What this translates into is that the upper midtones and highlights on the print will seem to be shouldering off and will have lower local contrast.


Backwards. A stained neg will actually have better seperation in the high values because the density curve will be straighter. A non stained neg has a greater chance of having a shoulder in the high values which exaggerates the contrast because it squashes the tonal variations giving the appearance of greater contrast. The overall densities of the max density to produce a tone barely perceptably darker than pure paper white can not be any different between a stained and non-stained neg or the paper could not print it (assuming proper testing and proofing times have been established). It is just that the stained neg has a more gradual density increase to the high values because of the stain. Having squashed high values does not really mean more contrast or lack of contrast in a stained neg. Squashed high values are simply squashed high values.

This is not to say that a non stained neg always has squashed high values. I am simply saying that the delicate high value separation that can be obtained with a stained neg if proper testing is done can be very beautiful. This is different than low or lack of contrast.

Now, the original question was from someone who seemed to have some iniitial success with PMK and then his prints became

They appeared muddy and a very gray color.

Many people, and I was one of them, thought the problem may have been after the negs were processed. This does not sound like a negative problem but a printing or proofing problem.



steve simmons

N Dhananjay
1-Jan-2008, 17:01
Steve, I do not have it backwards. I am aware of the fact that stain adds contrast in the high values. The problem I am discussing is when the color of the stain interacts with the characteristics of the paper emulsion. Specifically, when the color of the stain makes the low contrast, green sensitive emulsion of a VC paper more active. If what I am saying is true, there should two forms of evidence. (1) Green stained negatives should print with lower highlight contrast than brown stained negatives. (2) While a non-stained negative should print more or less identically on graded and VC paper (when both papers have reasonably similar HD curves), a green stained negative should print with lower contrast on VC paper compared to graded paper. Both of these certainly seem to be true.

This is not to say that green stain is 'bad' or that PMK is 'bad'. In practice, it depends on what you are trying to do, the kind of subjects you shoot and the extent of facility you have with the system. It is also worth pointing out that many times, this kind of compensating action is precisely what one is looking for. If you want to hold a long luminance range subject, that representation of the long luminance has to compe from somewhere (given that a paper has a certain density range) - one has to rob Peter to pay Paul. So, you can hold a longer luminance range but at the expense of local contrast somewhere. I am also fully aware that green stained negatives can, and do, produce good prints on VC papers. But that does not mean this problem will not show up under specific conditions - it is theoretically predicted and can be shown easily enough.

Cheers, DJ


What this translates into is that the upper midtones and highlights on the print will seem to be shouldering off and will have lower local contrast.


Backwards. A stained neg will actually have better seperation in the high values because the density curve will be straighter. A non stained neg has a greater chance of having a shoulder in the high values which exaggerates the contrast because it squashes the tonal variations giving the appearance of greater contrast. The overall densities of the max density to produce a tone barely perceptably darker than pure paper white can not be any different between a stained and non-stained neg or the paper could not print it (assuming proper testing and proofing times have been established). It is just that the stained neg has a more gradual density increase to the high values because of the stain. Having squashed high values does not really mean more contrast or lack of contrast in a stained neg. Squashed high values are simply squashed high values.

This is not to say that a non stained neg always has squashed high values. I am simply saying that the delicate high value separation that can be obtained with a stained neg if proper testing is done can be very beautiful. This is different than low or lack of contrast.

Now, the original question was from someone who seemed to have some iniitial success with PMK and then his prints became

They appeared muddy and a very gray color.

Many people, and I was one of them, thought the problem may have been after the negs were processed. This does not sound like a negative problem but a printing or proofing problem.



steve simmons

steve simmons
1-Jan-2008, 17:10
You are making this much too complicated. Why would you want to take the same neg and print on both vc and graded papers. By definition there you have not calibrated your film to one or the other or both. If you want to go wandering through the woods printing on this, that and the other papers go ahead. You will never be calibrated or standardized and yes you will get different results. That proves nothing. You will do the same with a non staining developer.

As I tell people in my workshops, don't join the film of the month club. The same goes for paper and developers. This will only keep you off balance and chasing your tail in the darkroom. Not the way I like to work.

However, again I think we are getting off topic. The question that was asked is why his proofs would suddenly look flat and gray after not doing so the first few times he worked. That is the question. Do you have any ideas?

steve

bob carnie
2-Jan-2008, 08:58
The Book of Pyro

Page 47 Printing with Variable Contrast Paper

"During development , the negative gains silver density from shadow to highlight. It is also gaining a proprortional amout of image stain. This yellowish-green stain is not only printing density, but also a contrast reducing colour with variable contrast paper. "



This is from my original copy of Mr Hutchings book I purchased in 1993.
since then his formula has been a valued asset to our film companys success.

A couple of my enlargers have different colour filters for lowering contrast.. Ilford head the 0 is green, Omega Condensor the 00filter is yellow, Deveere Head the O is dialed in yellow dichroics.

I have seen both green and yellow stains in the negatives and it makes sense to me to boost the contrast to compensate for a stain that mimics the colour of my low contrast printing filters .

The original poster has noticed that his prints look flat and muddy.
I suggest that he needs to try a higher starting pack on this film Pyro dev combination.
The original poster can look and decide that whether his negatives are well exposed and developed.
the advice about working with graded paper to see if the negative is ok sound pretty sound to me.

From a practical standpoint this whole matter is pretty straight forward. I have talked to others and they suggest that their starting packs were not as high as mine and I wonder if it is due to the colour of the stain that they were getting.
I think taking any non stained negative and then applying different transparent colours on top of them in the negative carrier would show different print contrasts as you change colours on VC paper. Just as putting diffusion sheets on top of the negatives in patterns that match areas of the neg to lighten them up work as well.