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View Full Version : Need Ideas to fix a Wsiner 12x20 bellows.



Jorge Gasteazoro
5-Dec-2007, 13:02
Well folks, to continue with the Wisner saga. I bought a 12x20 Wisner on E bay from a fellow who actually frequents this forum. As he stated the camera was in great shape and looked like new. So I finally am getting back on the horse and started photographing again.

Trying the camera, I noticed my negatives had an unsual amount of fog. I decided to check the bellows and wouldn't you know it the tape they used to put together the bellows is not light tight. There is pinhole like leaks (although the tape does not have holes) in all four sides and all the corners... :mad:

No sense in contacting Wisner, I think they are about out of bussiness so I am looking for any ideas for a fix. I know I could probably use the B&S kit, but before I make a mess with the neoprene I am thinking someone here might come up with a better solution. Tape would not work, since I have to put it along all four sides and it would make it impossible to close the camera.

Any brilliant ideas out there?

Witold Grabiec
5-Dec-2007, 14:02
I'm sure this is not the help you're looking for, but:

If the tape used was crappy to begin with, I would not attempt any repairs, since the fix, even if successful, is likely to be short lived. It somewhat depends on the size o the wholes. I believe I saw a paintable compound (source of which escapes me at the moment), that would have a chance to fill the pores without affecting flexibility of the bellows, but I'm not sure if this would let me sleep all that well.

Given the size it is probably to be costly, but I think I'd look into new bellows, so long as the rest of the camera is deserving.

Jorge Gasteazoro
5-Dec-2007, 14:10
I'm sure this is not the help you're looking for, but:

If the tape used was crappy to begin with, I would not attempt any repairs, since the fix, even if successful, is likely to be short lived. It somewhat depends on the size o the wholes. I believe I saw a paintable compound (source of which escapes me at the moment), that would have a chance to fill the pores without affecting flexibility of the bellows, but I'm not sure if this would let me sleep all that well.

Given the size it is probably to be costly, but I think I'd look into new bellows, so long as the rest of the camera is deserving.

It looks like the tape will hold, it just needs a light tight paint or soemthing like that..this paintable compound sounds like the thing to use. If you remember let me know, and thanks.

PS, new bellows is out of the question. Wisner, in his infinte wisdom glued the bellows back frame to the camera, instead of using fasteners so it could be removed.....talk about a dumb idea! So removing the bellows would probably cause more harm than good, plus the expense would be around $1000 if I have it done at Camera bellows...not something I want to do.

Frank R
5-Dec-2007, 15:15
What about just draping (or wrapping) your dark cloth over the bellows just before shooting? No repair work involved and its free.

Jorge Gasteazoro
5-Dec-2007, 15:22
What about just draping (or wrapping) your dark cloth over the bellows just before shooting? No repair work involved and its free.

I sold my Korona 12x20 just so I did not have to do that. Also, since the leaks are on the four sides, draping the cloth areound would not cover the seams on the bottom close to the bed. This is my solution for now, but would like to get the bellows fixed.

Michael Graves
5-Dec-2007, 15:38
I'd steer clear of the Bostick and Sullivan if I were you. I tried that on a Toyo bellows. Followed the instructions to the letter. Where it said to let it sit for 7 days, I left the camera in full extension on a tripod for 10 days. It felt totally dry to the touch and looked fantastic. I was amazed. Folded up the camera and put it away. The next time I took it out to use, the compound stuck to itself and where I used to have pinholes, I now had openings a sparrow could fly through. If they're tiny pinholes, one thing I did on a Speed Graphic I had several years ago was to mix India ink with carpenters glue and apply it to the inside of the bellows. It dried okay and worked. Regret not doing the same with the toyo, but Camera Bellows only charged $320 for a 810M bellows.

Jorge Gasteazoro
5-Dec-2007, 16:17
I'd steer clear of the Bostick and Sullivan if I were you. I tried that on a Toyo bellows. Followed the instructions to the letter. Where it said to let it sit for 7 days, I left the camera in full extension on a tripod for 10 days. It felt totally dry to the touch and looked fantastic. I was amazed. Folded up the camera and put it away. The next time I took it out to use, the compound stuck to itself and where I used to have pinholes, I now had openings a sparrow could fly through. If they're tiny pinholes, one thing I did on a Speed Graphic I had several years ago was to mix India ink with carpenters glue and apply it to the inside of the bellows. It dried okay and worked. Regret not doing the same with the toyo, but Camera Bellows only charged $320 for a 810M bellows.

India ink with carpenter's glue!?!...what a great idea! And I can do it on the inside as you did and maybe make it work....thanks!

John Schneider
5-Dec-2007, 18:09
Liquid 'Lectric Tape, an air-curing flexible urethane designed to seal electrical connections in marine environments. Dab a small amount (using a toothpick) onto each leak. It also comes in colors if you want a match. Try a boat store (West Marine etc.) or a good electrical supplier.

John Kasaian
5-Dec-2007, 18:42
Equinox Photographic has a good product for pinholes.

Herb Cunningham
5-Dec-2007, 18:45
I have pretty good luck with using "photography tape"- it is kinda like black masking tape, costs a lot, and I used it on my Durst 8x10 enlarger bellows before I got a new one. It is really thin, and should work.

Diane Maher
5-Dec-2007, 20:55
I have used the B&S repair kit on a Century No. 7 studio 8x10 camera. It had been used by a pro for a long time and had a wad of tape on the corners. I also used it on a whole plate camera. Both cameras work fine.

sanking
5-Dec-2007, 22:10
Well folks, to continue with the Wisner saga. I bought a 12x20 Wisner on E bay from a fellow who actually frequents this forum. As he stated the camera was in great shape and looked like new. So I finally am getting back on the horse and started photographing again.

Trying the camera, I noticed my negatives had an unsual amount of fog. I decided to check the bellows and wouldn't you know it the tape they used to put together the bellows is not light tight. There is pinhole like leaks (although the tape does not have holes) in all four sides and all the corners... :mad:

No sense in contacting Wisner, I think they are about out of bussiness so I am looking for any ideas for a fix. I know I could probably use the B&S kit, but before I make a mess with the neoprene I am thinking someone here might come up with a better solution. Tape would not work, since I have to put it along all four sides and it would make it impossible to close the camera.

Any brilliant ideas out there?



I have a solution for the leaks on the side if they are only on the corners. Buy a roll of three inch wide bookbinders tape from Gaylord (self-adhesive backing), rack your bellows out all the way so that it is as flat as possible, and then apply the tape on all four sides. After applying the tape on each side fold the bellows back and crease the corners to the original shape, then rack the bellows out again and apply to the next side. I have done this on two cameras that had leaks on the corners and it worked 100%.

Not sure what you could do about the leaks at the front and back, but you might be able to use the bookbinder tape to fix that as well.

Sandy King

Jorge Gasteazoro
5-Dec-2007, 22:29
I have a solution for the leaks on the side if they are only on the corners. Buy a roll of three inch wide bookbinders tape from Gaylord (self-adhesive backing), rack your bellows out all the way so that it is as flat as possible, and then apply the tape on all four sides. After applying the tape on each side fold the bellows back and crease the corners to the original shape, then rack the bellows out again and apply to the next side. I have done this on two cameras that had leaks on the corners and it worked 100%.

Not sure what you could do about the leaks at the front and back, but you might be able to use the bookbinder tape to fix that as well.

Sandy King

Thanks Sandy, I don't know if tape will work since I have to apply it along all four edges. Perhaps I did not explain myself well enough. It is not that the tape has holes itself, it is that the weave of the tape, even though it has been painted still lets light through. So the "holes" are on each and every fold of the bellows in all four sides where the bellows is taped to the ribs. I guess I should post some pictures.

sanking
5-Dec-2007, 22:57
Thanks Sandy, I don't know if tape will work since I have to apply it along all four edges. Perhaps I did not explain myself well enough. It is not that the tape has holes itself, it is that the weave of the tape, even though it has been painted still lets light through. So the "holes" are on each and every fold of the bellows in all four sides where the bellows is taped to the ribs. I guess I should post some pictures.

In that case using the liquid repair kits will definitely not work either.

I think you need a new bellows. However, there is one other thing you might try, but to do it you will need four hands. Get some of the thin dark room cloth, which is light tight, from Porter's camera. I don't have a catalog right now, but maybe someone can give you the product number. Rack out the bellows all the way again to make it as flat as possible. Measure the black cloth so that it will fit all around the bellows. Then clean the outside of the bellows to make sure there is no oil or grease that will prevent adhesion of the dark cloth. Apply contact cement to the bellows and to the cloth, wait for the required time, and then carefully place the cloth over the bellows. Let it end on the bottom, and then apply contact cement so that you can lap over the edge. Now fold the bellows and rub the corners to re-establish the creases.

This is doable, but it will take a couple of other persons to hold the cloth so that you can fit it on all sides since it sticks on touch. I managed to do this to a Korona 12X20 camera once by myself, but it would have been much easier with a couple more people. It would be much easier if you could remove the bellows from the camera and place a mold to hold the bellows flat on all sides. Essentially you are using the old bellows as a mold around which you glue a new piece of light proof cloth.

Sandy

Randy H
6-Dec-2007, 03:31
Essentially you are using the old bellows as a mold around which you glue a new piece of light proof cloth.

Sandy

I have done couple of old cameras this way using 1/2 ounce or thinner, pig-skin splits, or black-out curtain material. It works. Here is a pic of one of them, posted some time back on this forum:
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2659&d=1174180803 The leather on this one is nearly paper-thin and cost me a whole whoppin $7.50 USD
Also, if you had to, for ease, you could always do just one "side" at a time, and just leave about 1/2 inch overlap at corners. Or each corner, and put a "seam" on each of four sides, with small overlap. Run the seam diagonally across side to eliminate excess "bulk"

I used the 3M Brand Super spray adhesive. First camera bellows I "re-covered" was seneca 4X5 triple extension about three years ago, using black fabric. and as of last night, they still folded well, stretched well, and were still light-tight.

eddie
6-Dec-2007, 19:12
hello,
many "black" tapes are not light proof....but you already now that.
call turner bellows in rochester NY. they have good prices. it can not hurt to ask them.

eddie

G Benaim
7-Dec-2007, 00:32
I've had good results using black acrylic paint, somewhat diluted to avoid stickiniess. My C-1 had pinholes along all four edges, so I first painted the inside of all four edges. Let it dry, then check again for any leftovers and dabbed on the outside. I haven't had any problems so far. It's also water soluble, so if it doesn't work in pple you can get rid of it.

Matt Magruder
7-Dec-2007, 12:33
Jorge
just saw this post. Havent read through everyones post, but will share my personal experience.
I had a VERY similar problem with my 7x17 when I bought it from Pacific Rim on ebay. Short of buying a new bellows (didnt want to spend the money, nor be without a camera long enough to have it replaced), I did a bunch of experimenting and discovered a pretty functional means of "fixing" this same problem, it even "looks" pretty good. I bought some sheets of very thin (completely opaque) suede leather, I think the sheets were 10x20 +/-, then racked out the bellows and glued them to the bellows with leather glue, bought at the same hobby store I got the suede at. It ended up looking rather good and worked flawlessly. I even deduced that if needed you could "recover" an entire bellows with multiple pieces and slight overlap. The suede was thin and supple enough that it didnt bulk up the bellows in the least bit.
I imagine apply this method to both the exterior and interior of the bellows would make your light leaks non existant.

If someone has mentioned this previously, sorry for the repitition.

Gene McCluney
7-Dec-2007, 12:45
The question that keeps running through my mind is: Why would a camera as new as a Wisner (20 years old or less?) need a new bellows? I have 50 year old cameras that have good bellows.

David Karp
7-Dec-2007, 12:50
Jorge,

If you decide not to do a home remedy, drop Jim at Western Bellows a note. He is near Rancho Cucamonga, CA, so the shipping would not be too bad. He could make the bellows and attach it for you. He did that for my whole plate Improved Seneca and it looks and works great. You can reach him at westernbellows@aol.com. His other contact information is:

Western Bellows
7454 Henbane St.
Etiwanda, CA 91739
909-980-0606

You can see photos of my Seneca with its new bellows here: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=26278&highlight=plate+madness

alec4444
10-Dec-2007, 19:54
I've heard that Camera Bellows in the UK is reputable, though I didn't have luck getting them to give me one of their free quotes. There's a guy in Hawaii that apparently does great work. And lastly, you might try calling Emile DeLeon (http://www.deleon-ulf.com/). He deals with Wisner direct to save you the trouble. If he does it right, there should be little to no upfront outlay for you. I haven't used him, but I did get him to give me some quotes on stuff and he was fairly prompt.

Cheers!
--A