Why do the Brits say 10x8 and 5x4?

[BradS]

Why is it that the British refer to LF cameras sizes differently from all the rest of the world?
Why do they call an 8x10 "10x8" and why do they refer to the little 4x5 as "5x4"???
Enquiring minds want to know...

[David A. Goldfarb]

The Brits think more horizontally, while everyone else thinks vertically. Or maybe it's the other way around.

[Walter Calahan]

Why do Americans say 4x5 and 8x10?

This is why the English and the Americans are forever separated by a common language. HA!

[John Kasaian]

Maybe its metric? :D

[Bruce Schultz]

It's because they also drive on the wrong side of the road.

[QT Luong]

They have to do things differently, like driving on the wrong side of the road. At least they write and open their books the right way :-)

[john collins]

If they didn't have a different point of view, they couldn't claim to be superior.

[BrianShaw]

What do Aussies say?

[Greg Lockrey]

What do Aussies say?

X45 ? :D :D :D

[Alan Davenport]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2250/2052628983_b0e3f19196_o.gif

[Richard Wasserman]

Alan, you made my day!

[Joe Lipka]

Well, we all agree on 5x7.

And the obvious advantage to Aussie photographers is that the image is formed right side up on all view cameras.

[Louie Powell]

Why is it that the British refer to LF cameras sizes differently from all the rest of the world?
Why do they call an 8x10 "10x8" and why do they refer to the little 4x5 as "5x4"???
Enquiring minds want to know...

Its probably an aftereffect of the warm beer.

[jetcode]

the story behind driving on the left instead of right is that if you are right handed your sword will be in the most powerful position to slay oncoming traffic - yup - castles were designed with the stairwells spinning to the right so that right handed invaders swords would be confined to the inside stairwell - yup - and the last step approaching the next floor was additionally higher to trip the assailants while defenders lopped their heads off - called "the trip step" - yup - modern tower houses and castles had a entry called the murder hole where defenders from above poured boiling oil or stoned invaders who managed to enter the inner keep

ahh the times they were pleasant were they not?

[Craig Griffiths]

whether Aussies see things the right way up or not is dependant on the source of the ground glass. Alas mine was imported from the Northern Hemisphere and as a result the image is upside down.

Perhaps there is a marketing opportunity on ebay for Australian ground glass. I am sure that there would be a few purchasers. :D

[Pete Watkins]

Listen mate, we invented (or evolved) the language so if we say 5x4 it's 5x4, that's it, we're right you're wrong! We like our beer warm because it brings out the delicate flavours of a blend of English hops and fine English malt. Chilling beer, or ale as we prefer to call it in these parts, just obliterates the taste which in the case of New World "beer" is not a bad thing. We have an old saying that starts with "whats the difference between American beer and sex in a rowing boat? They're both F****** near water". jetcode, fantastic, you must have been reading up on our history, far more interesting than yours innit? Alan, that makes so much sense. Will the image be the right way up if I bring me beautiful B&J 5x7 down under?
One last thing, always remember that the word "colour" has a "U" in it, it's our language and thats that!
Pete.

[BrianShaw]

Listen mate (snip) it's our language and thats that!
Pete.

Yes, dear... or should that be "yes, luv".

[Ash]

Actually Brian, it's "m'love"

[Bill_1856]

Thanks, Alan. That was Wunderful!

Old sports car joke:

Q: Why do the British drink warm beer?
A. Because they have Lucas refrigerators.

[Rob Champagne]

Why is it that the British refer to LF cameras sizes differently from all the rest of the world?
Why do they call an 8x10 "10x8" and why do they refer to the little 4x5 as "5x4"???
Enquiring minds want to know...

If I'm not mistaken, photography and cameras were exported from Europe to the USA. Therefore the question should be: Why do the yanks always change everything and then delude themselves by thinking it was their idea in the first place?

So why do you do it? Does it make you feel important? Do you realise that it wasn't your idea in the first place? :D :D :D

[bbjorkum]

The Swedes say 9x12, as they are metric ...

[John Kasaian]

We like our beer warm because it brings out the delicate flavours of a blend of English hops and fine English malt.

I thought it was because you have Lucas refrigerators! Pity the bloke who has a Lucas pacemaker!:D

A Lucas Enlarger would truly be the personification of the "Prints of Darkness!":D :D

~all in good fun!

[Rob Champagne]

American beer = weak and gassy. says it all. :D :D :D

[jetcode]

jetcode, fantastic, you must have been reading up on our history, far more interesting than yours innit?

I'm particularly fond of Oliver Cromwell's passion for the Irish, Scottish head butting in Paisley, and of course the Hooligans, those lovely chaps who make any party or sporting event a pleasure.

Then again Haggis and Spotted Dick followed by pint after pint of bitter Ale would be enough for any sane man or woman to take a coffin ship to other shores.

[jetcode]

Why do the yanks always change everything and then delude themselves by thinking it was their idea in the first place?


like thermonuclear warfare for example ...

[uniB]

And our football team is a pile of hopeless muck, not our soccer team! :mad:

[Steve Clark]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2250/2052628983_b0e3f19196_o.gif
Alan,
That`s hilarious! :D

[Steve Clark]

American beer = weak and gassy. says it all. :D :D :D

Rob,
There are a few really fine American beers, just far to few. :(

[BradS]

but, I'm not saying one is right or wrong...
and I realise that we mangle the language
Our behaviour is not always right and proper
we don't speak english you see.
we speak American.

but back to the point...why is it so?

(I gotta take my kit down under some day to check out that ground glass image reversal thing). :)

[Rob Champagne]

like thermonuclear warfare for example ...
Well I think most of the theoretical science was european but it took the specialisms of the USA to use the science for weapons making (with the aid of the europeans).

[jetcode]

I enjoyed my travels through the UK - lots of history and some really great people

[Oren Grad]

What I want to know is, if photographers in the UK call a film holder a "dark slide", what do they call a dark slide?

[Uri Kolet]

Let us now sing the praises of real cheese: spectacular cheddar, or stilton, or any of the other fine cheeses from the British Isles. Wish I could bump every one of my 285
passengers and replace them with their weight in cheese. Almost told the twit at Heathrow crew security"Go ahead and confiscate my nail clippers; have you seen the size of the fire axe I have in the cockpit?" Depressing news: the top-selling drink in pubs nowadays? Bud Light! It's not just urine; it's horse piss, and the horse had pneumonia.But why do you have to cross the Channel for real bread? And where else in the world can you take a "semi-fast"train? Or still find medieval plumbing with separate hot and cold water taps? Ah, but the ale and cheese make it worthwhile.

[John Kasaian]

True, the Brits are light years ahead of us gringos when it comes to diversity in cheese, but for take out chinese I'm afraid the UK is definately way behind the curve. Uri---you called it right when it comes to gringo lite beer, but what about UK blood sausage? Cold toast? Heinz beans and----ugh---salad cream?
It's no wonder they built the chunnel---the Brits had to get something to eat! ;)

Of course they did have those Two Fat Ladies who rode around on a motorcycle cooking lunch for people---a class act! Loved 'em!:D

[Rob Champagne]

but for take out chinese I'm afraid the UK is definately way behind the curve.

Well just think how bad it gets when you build your whole country with immigrants:p

UK blood sausage?
It's called black pudding and done right its good stuff. Done wrong wrong and I can see your point.

Cold toast?
Tourist accommodation?

Heinz beans
American import?:p

salad cream?
what do you expect? Next time ask for Mayonnaise and not salad cream

It's no wonder they built the chunnel---the Brits had to get something to eat!
You get what you pay for and if the requests on this list for cheap this and cheap that are anything to go by, then its no wonder you didn't like the food.

Of course they did have those Two Fat Ladies who rode around on a motorcycle cooking lunch for people---a class act! Loved 'em!
It's not all bad then.:D

[Uri Kolet]

And never forget that Women's Institute Calendar showing Ladies of a Certain Age in various stages of modest undress. We'll always be in their debt for that. (Never mind that I feel I must know those women; didn't I fly with at least ONE of them on my crew recently?) For a sublime photographic experience, try the Outer Hebrides with LF gear - in summer only, may I add. Just for the smoked kippers for breakfast. Flew right by the lighthouse near Stornoway one sunny afternoon recently; different perspective.
That's one of our main coastal fixes on the route in and out of London; always wanted to go there, and actually did last July 2006. Well worth the trouble and expense.

[jetcode]

Let us now sing the praises of real cheese: spectacular cheddar, or stilton, or any of the other fine cheeses from the British Isles.

I like the 4 year old gouda from Holland with a glass of high end port

[jetcode]

True, the Brits are light years ahead of us gringos when it comes to diversity in cheese, but for take out chinese I'm afraid the UK is definately way behind the curve. Uri---you called it right when it comes to gringo lite beer, but what about UK blood sausage? Cold toast? Heinz beans and----ugh---salad cream?
It's no wonder they built the chunnel---the Brits had to get something to eat! ;)

Of course they did have those Two Fat Ladies who rode around on a motorcycle cooking lunch for people---a class act! Loved 'em!:D

LOL I was in the town of Inverness in Northern Scotland and went in for Chinese take out one night. I ordered vegetarian egg foo yung. When I opened the container I had scrambled eggs, bean sprouts, and tomatoes. They weren't scrambled together and there may have been some mushrooms. I must say that Indian food in Edinburgh was quite good.

[Rob Champagne]

And never forget that Women's Institute Calendar showing Ladies of a Certain Age in various stages of modest undress. We'll always be in their debt for that. (Never mind that I feel I must know those women; didn't I fly with at least ONE of them on my crew recently?)
This has become a very popular idea. Locally to where I live there is calendar of nude farmers and there have been many others country wide. Infact there has just been one in the news today. What ever floats your boat...
Nudity for charity (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lincolnshire/7105635.stm)

[CantikFotos]

There'll always be a big island off the coast of France.

[John Kasaian]

This has become a very popular idea. Locally to where I live there is calendar of nude farmers and there have been many others country wide. Infact there has just been one in the news today. What ever floats your boat...
Nudity for charity (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lincolnshire/7105635.stm)

But were they painted blue?:D

[Rob Champagne]

But were they painted blue?:D
don't know but apparently she can do a neat trick drawing a shamrock leaf in the head of your guinness.:D

[Rob Champagne]

There'll always be a big island off the coast of France.
This royal throne of kings, this sceptred isle,
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by Nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war,
This happy breed of men, this little world,
This precious stone set in the silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall
Or as a moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands,
This blessed plot, this earth,
This realm, this England!

[Turner Reich]

When a window is specified by an architect on a plan or drafting, it's the width first then the height.

[Pete Watkins]

If you're reading this in England don't mention football, not this morning. Still, we'll have a new manager by lunchtime and the World Cup will be ours! Rob when I read that I can understand why the rest of Europe wants to come and live here. Nice.
Pete.

[Gary Tarbert]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2250/2052628983_b0e3f19196_o.gifYes but only when it's on the groundglass cobber!
When we print it we call it 5x4 if it is landscape and 4x5 if it's a portrait.
Same with 8x10 or 10x8 don't know what we call it it if it's a crop :)
Crikey!! do we have to teach you chaps everything:) cheers Gary

[Rob Champagne]

Rob when I read that I can understand why the rest of Europe wants to come and live here. Nice.
Pete.

Well you should some more of it. It's by some bloke called William Shakespeare - Richard II.

[Duane Polcou]

"Hell is where the police are German and the cooks are English"
- Colin Fletcher (RIP)

[Steve Clark]

When a window is specified by an architect on a plan or drafting, it's the width first then the height.
What if it`s a square window?:D

[Darren Kilgore]

Why do Americans say 4x5 and 8x10?

Because we use the length by width (by height by depth) formula sequence. Measurements listed will always be in that order, film or otherwise.

[tim atherton]

Because we use the length by width (by height by depth) formula sequence. Measurements listed will always be in that order, film or otherwise.

As i recall, Brits (and Aussies) also say, for example, "use a 4x2 plank of wood" (not a 2x4 as in Canada and the US)

4x2 also being and insult...

[Rob Champagne]

As i recall, Brits (and Aussies) also say, for example, "use a 4x2 plank of wood" (not a 2x4 as in Canada and the US)

4x2 also being and insult...

Woods gone metric, its 10x5 now:D

[OldBikerPete]

It is a convention when specifying material sizes in the engineering and construction industries, to quote the dimesions in sorted order, largest dimension first and (eg. a piece of wood 32x3x2). The practice of quoting paper and film sizes could possibly follow from that, depending on the preferences of those involved in the early days of photography.

[Joseph O'Neil]

As i recall, Brits (and Aussies) also say, for example, "use a 4x2 plank of wood" (not a 2x4 as in Canada and the US)
4x2 also being and insult...

Ah, but in Canada, the phrase "2x4" is easily mistaken anymore for the term "two four", which is a reference for both a case of beer and the holiday weekend to spend totally and senselessly drunk on the beach.

[Joseph O'Neil]

Size matters. If a stranger heard you talking, and didn't know what it was about, I certainly would rather say it is 5" by 4" (but to play it safe stick to 10x8 formats with women around). Obviously a Brit problem.:D

... so in the UK they prefer width while in the USA they prefer length......some social scientist working on their doctorate thesis could have a field day with the Freudian implications of that finding...
:D

[GSX4]

now ask someone in England what a 4x2 means :-)

[tim atherton]

a thick plank... :-)

[Steve Gledhill]

My theory - which I've held for years - is that it's to do with our accents. We Brits tend not to extend our syllables - especially at the end of words, but not so in the US. 5x4 is short and clipped - and British - and the 4 doesn't lend itself to being drawn out. Unlike 5 which which can readily be extended to suit an American accent. So it's "5 bi 4" for the Brits and "4 biiii fiiiive" in the US. So it's done to suit our accents ... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Steve Clark]

So... is it a 5x7 or 7x5?

[Rob Champagne]

My theory - which I've held for years - is that it's to do with our accents. We Brits tend not to extend our syllables - especially at the end of words, but not so in the US. 5x4 is short and clipped - and British - and the 4 doesn't lend itself to being drawn out. Unlike 5 which which can readily be extended to suit an American accent. So it's "5 bi 4" for the Brits and "4 biiii fiiiive" in the US. So it's done to suit our accents ... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Evesham? If you've been drinking in that cider house in Elmley Castle, then there's no telling how you would pronounce 5x4:D

[Andrew O'Neill]

So it's "5 bi 4" for the Brits and "4 biiii fiiiive" in the US. So it's done to suit our accents .

That's funny...but not all Americans talk like that. How do you explain us Canucks who also say 4x5?

[Stan. L-B]

From this side of the pond. We Brits are still in the navigational mode where the Longitude, or length comes before the Latitude, or width.

[Steve Gledhill]

Evesham? If you've been drinking in that cider house in Elmley Castle, then there's no telling how you would pronounce 5x4:D

Tru - zyda reeeelly adulsss yer brian n slurrrrs yu spich ... :p

[Bruce Watson]

Why is it that the British refer to LF cameras sizes differently from all the rest of the world? Why do they call an 8x10 "10x8" and why do they refer to the little 4x5 as "5x4"??? Enquiring minds want to know...

Since no one has offered what I'd consider a rational answer, I'll offer one up.

It's based in geometry. The X, Y, and Z axis system has X being horizontal, Y being vertical, and Z being depth into the page. Since most LF shots are made in landscape mode, X is 5 and Y is 4, thus 5x4.

And if it makes you feel any better, I'm an American and say "5x4" all the time.

I also gave up on the imperial system of measurements long ago and went metric. It's ridiculous that America is the lone hold out against a universal system of weights and measures, especially when the antiquated system we are holding out for is so much more difficult to use. But that's America for you.

[Rob Champagne]

You had metric money long before we did.

Look what happened to the hubble telescope. Didn't someone got their metric/imperial conversions wrong?

But then fractions are far more accurate than decimals.

But then again we can't even agree on how much a gallon is. Years ago I had to laugh when I told my boss that all calculators use US gallons. So when he converted gallons to litres for his expenses claim, he was depriving himself of money.
Then there was a fairly recent case of the US pilot who hired a small plane in the UK and got the gallon / litre conversion wrong when he filled up. He ran out of fuel and crashed.

And then there's paper sizes...

[Bruce Watson]

In case anyone is wondering, the USA was one of the original founding 17 members of the Convention du Metre in 1875. Then in 1893 we implemented metric measures as the fundamental units of measure in the USA -- to this day the foot, inch, pound, quart, etc. are defined only in relation to the meter, kilogram, liter, etc.

What I'm saying is that the USA has been officially metric since April 5, 1893 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendenhall_Order).

There hasn't been a non-metric car made on the planet in decades, including the USA and Canada. Yet... Americans show amazing degrees of stubbornness in holding onto the antiquated imperial system. What I want to know is... why?

[Rob Champagne]

So that you can still have your pound of flesh instead of 453.59237 grams:D

[Bruce Watson]

So that you can still have your pound of flesh instead of 453.59237 grams:D

As I recall, the "pound of flesh" reference is, um... British. Merchant of Venice wasn't it?

I think instead it's an insidious plot by science teachers to confuse school kids over the difference between a pound of mass and a pound of force. For those few still reading, those two pounds are not the same thing, but can be effectively equivalent on the surface of the Earth. That is, at least on some parts of the planet, a pound of mass exerts a pound of force (void where the acceleration due to gravity varies from "standard gravity" of 9.80665 m/s^2 of course).

This confusion is largely absent in the metric system where mass is measured in grams, force is measured in Newtons, and acceleration due to gravity is explicitly expressed and not hidden in the units of measure. IMHO of course.

[Michael Wynd]

Actually, Aussies with large format cameras just keep on saying, no, it's not a Hasselblad. It's just a f*****g big camera, for 4x5 and an even bigger f*****g camera for 8x10. LOL
Mike

[Rakesh Malik]

As I recall, the "pound of flesh" reference is, um... British. Merchant of Venice wasn't it?


Yes, that's the one.



I think instead it's an insidious plot by science teachers to confuse school kids over the difference between a pound of mass and a pound of force. For those few still reading, those two pounds are not the same thing, but can be effectively equivalent on the surface of the Earth. That is, at least on some parts of the planet, a pound of mass exerts a pound of force (void where the acceleration due to gravity varies from "standard gravity" of 9.80665 m/s^2 of course).


There's no such thing as "a pound of mass" in actuality. There is a little known unit called the "slug" in our assinine system of units that denotes mass. The problem is that most teachers have done such a poor job of teaching their students the difference between mass and weight.

A pound is by definition a measurement of weight, not of mass.



This confusion is largely absent in the metric system where mass is measured in grams, force is measured in Newtons, and acceleration due to gravity is explicitly expressed and not hidden in the units of measure. IMHO of course.

It has nothing to do with the system of measurement, and everything to do with the same system of "education" that leaves people thinking that evolution is an intelligent and directed process...

[Keith Tapscott.]

Why is it that the British refer to LF cameras sizes differently from all the rest of the world?
Why do they call an 8x10 "10x8" and why do they refer to the little 4x5 as "5x4"???
Enquiring minds want to know...
Perhaps 4x5, 8x10 etc are more likely to be American formats. Maybe in Europe, formats such as Quarter Plate, Half Plate and Whole Plate were more common? I honestly don`t know.

[Keith Tapscott.]

Well, we all agree on 5x7.Don`t you mean 7x5?:D

[Mick Fagan]

I think the more technically correct pronunciation down under is, "foive before".

At least that's how I say it, according to my German missus:)

Mick.

[Richard Kelham]

Don`t you mean 7x5?:D


I always thought it was Half Plate....

[SchwinnParamount]

Rob,
There are a few really fine American beers, just far to few. :(


Actually, there are hundreds of really good American beers. They are microbrews, all of them. Unfortunately, only the corporate brewed crap beers like budweiser and coors are exported... thereby giving American beer a really bad name.

I've made a strong effor to sample as many English, Belgian, German, and Czech beers as I can find. On that basis, I can say that a very many American micro brews stand shoulder to shoulder with the best Europe has to offer.

Maybe our government should make it a crime to export piss-water like Bud or Coors. It may not do any good for our reputation overseas though. Even if you held a gun to Budweiser's corporate head, they couldn't make a decent beer. They are too much beholden to the major stock holder to give a rip about something like "taste" or "quality". The law would merely dry up the whole export stream as no American company that cares about beer export knows or cares anything about taste.

Come to think of it, aren't the best British beers brewed by small houses tied to a single pub... or maybe a town?

[Uri Kolet]

Omergang Brewery in Cooperstown in upstate New York brews exquisite Belgian ales, as do Unibroue of Chambly, Quebec. Try Okanagan Spring's Porter; their brewery is in the Okangan Valley in the British Columbia Rockies.
By the way, all navigators, pilots, and seamen refer to latitude and longitude as lat. first followed by long., e.g. 45North 60West. If we had a single reference point for all map directions we'd have far less confusion and fewer navdata entry errors - but we'd still get lost!

[Gary Tarbert]

Actually, there are hundreds of really good American beers. They are microbrews, all of them. Unfortunately, only the corporate brewed crap beers like budweiser and coors are exported... thereby giving American beer a really bad name.

I've made a strong effor to sample as many English, Belgian, German, and Czech beers as I can find. On that basis, I can say that a very many American micro brews stand shoulder to shoulder with the best Europe has to offer.

Maybe our government should make it a crime to export piss-water like Bud or Coors. It may not do any good for our reputation overseas though. Even if you held a gun to Budweiser's corporate head, they couldn't make a decent beer. They are too much beholden to the major stock holder to give a rip about something like "taste" or "quality". The law would merely dry up the whole export stream as no American company that cares about beer export knows or cares anything about taste.

Come to think of it, aren't the best British beers brewed by small houses tied to a single pub... or maybe a town?You forgot to add Millers they make it as crappy as anybody.
I allways wondered why the american slang for beer was suds until i tasted it ! yep just like dishwater.Cheers (but not with U.S beer)Gary

[Craig]

T
Old sports car joke:

Q: Why do the British drink warm beer?
A. Because they have Lucas refrigerators.

I've had 5 British cars ranging in year of build from 1964 to 1995. One was a Jaguar XJ12 that used various General Motors components like the transmission, ignition amp, AC system, and power steering. Guess what failed?

Every single GM component failed at least once in the 45,000 miles I owned it, and I went through 3 ignition amps and 2 AC compressors. Not a single Lucas component failed, not even a lightbulb. On my other cars I've had the odd bulb go, but no other Lucas item has failed.

So much for Lucas unreliability, the Jags without GM bits have been bulletproof.

[Andrew O'Neill]

Try Okanagan Spring's Porter; their brewery is in the Okangan Valley in the British Columbia Rockies.

Okanagan Valley? It's nowhere near the Rockies.