Jobo Expert Drums vs. Normal Drums vs. Tray Developing

[audioexcels]

1) How much better is the quality of the processing using the Expert 4X5 drum vs. the regular drums for both color and b/w? Is tray developing still preferred even with 4X5 for b/w?

2) Similarly, how is the large Expert drum for 5X7/8X10 film vs. non-expert type drums? For b/w work, how is the Jobo Expert or non-expert drums vs. tray developing?

[Photobackpacker]

I have used the standard drum for 4X5 and have both of the Expert drums (3006 and 3010). The Experts gives me superior edge-to-edge evenness in development with smaller volumes of chemical -although I use double the recommended amount to ensure that developer fatigue does not enter the equation even when running a full load of film with high density subjects (like snow scenes).

[Chuck Pere]

This is all tied up with the question of intermittent vs. continuous agitation. Some people feel that continuous is not as sharp looking. I feel that they are probably correct for certain developers. But I have also found that continuous gives me less chance of uneven development. This can work out OK because a scene with large areas of uniform tone like sky or snow may not need the sharpest development possible. A complex scene may be about the visual impact of its detail and need the sharpest. And here the detail helps cover any uneven developing.

[Brian Ellis]

"Is tray developing still preferred even with 4X5 for b/w?"

I'm not aware that tray development is preferred for 4x5 b&w. Some people like trays, others use other methods (e.g. tubes, tanks, drums). I used trays (for 8x10) for a while and never liked them - too much standing around in the dark inhaling chemical fumes and shuffling film. I prefer the BTZS tubes myself. I'd guess that for 4x5 b&w tray users actually are a relatively small minority and that tray usage goes up as film size goes up.

[venchka]

I posted this a few minutes ago.


I finally overcame my inertia and intimidation. Last night I processed 5 sheets of Ilford HP5+ 4x5 film in the Jobo 3010. I am sold! Loading was simple. Development was uniform. A great experience all around. 750ml of D-76 1:1, 10 minutes @ 70 degrees, rolled by hand in my kitchen sink. I couldn't be happier. :)

[SamReeves]

Agreed with the others. Jobo is quite simple to use. The expert drums will give you more even development as opposed to the 2500 series reels.

[Songyun]

I posted this a few minutes ago.

I am also convinced to buy a roller. rolling by hand is pain. How do you wash your negatives?

[venchka]

Agreed. I need to make/buy the roller base. I just took the lid off and filled/dumped several times. Then I let the water run trhough for a few minutes. Not the best I guess. These were essentially training negatives.

[Songyun]

Agreed. I need to make/buy the roller base. I just took the lid off and filled/dumped several times. Then I let the water run trhough for a few minutes. Not the best I guess. These were essentially training negatives.
a roller will help here, just fill the drum with water and let roller run, dump a few times.

[Colin Corneau]

Agreed with the others. Jobo is quite simple to use. The expert drums will give you more even development as opposed to the 2500 series reels.

Can anyone tell this greener-than-green newbie why this might be? And is the proper Expert drum for 4x5 negs the 3006 or the 3010?
I'm looking for a reliable safe system to do my B&W developing..thanx for any advice.

[Gary Nylander]

Hey there Colin,

There is a name I recognize !, I have never used the Jobo system for processing film, but I have been processing sheet film for a good twenty plus years, and during those years I have tried various methods including the tray method but I didn't like it that much, it was too easy to scratch negatives. For many years when I had a full size darkroom I used Kodak film hangers and a dip and dunk system, simple and practicable but the developing process had to be done in the dark.

Here is my latest system I will try and explain as best as possible .....a few years ago when I down sized my darkroom ( now in my laundry room ), I still wanted to be able to process sheet film, so I devised my own system kinda like the BTZS tubes. I bought myself some standard three inch drainage pipe ( the white stuff ) from the local hardware store, I cut these into 5 inch lengths I then cut some up pieces of 1/8 inch flat plastic the length of the tube and the width drain pipe ( a slight bit over 3 inches ) these are then inserted into the plastic pipe as kind of a 'baffle' this is so each tube can hold two pieces of 4 x 5 film with out the film touch each other. I found that this drainage pipe just happens to fit quite nicely inside the standard stainless steel Kindermann style developing tank with plastic lid, I bought myself the extra-large tanks which holds 64 oz of chemistry, I can fit two five inch long tubes into each tank so each tank holds 4 sheets of 4 x 5 film, I have four tanks in total and process using two tanks at a time and have found that I can process 16 sheets in a little less than a hour, ( I make up a gallon of Xtol and a gallon of fixer ) I agitate just like there are roll films inside.

I have found the results are very good, even and uniform development, It may not be the best method ( as it maybe be a big bulky for some ) but it works for me, what I like is that all of the processing takes place in room light, the only time I am in the dark is when I use my bathroom to load the film into the tubes. I hope this helps and that my description here is not too confusing, if you are through the Kelowna area some time I will show you my set up.

[Colin Corneau]

Gary, I'm kind of embarassed I haven't turned to you for advice sooner! I guess between work, getting my other negs from the last China trip developed, and my general all-round laziness, I haven't done it yet.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding here, but could you not create the same set-up you use presently without the tubing -- just creating a framework like you have inside the plastic tube and inserting it into the steel tank instead?

Simple is good...I have a few of those steel tanks around still (along with a few Ilford coffee mugs, film canister openers, and other souvenirs from my youth)

[Gary Nylander]

Gary, I'm kind of embarassed I haven't turned to you for advice sooner!
No Problem !

Maybe I'm misunderstanding here, but could you not create the same set-up you use presently without the tubing -- just creating a framework like you have inside the plastic tube and inserting it into the steel tank instead?

No , not really, the thing is you need to be able to re-use the tubes for the next batch of film, as there are more tubes than steel tanks, also it makes getting the film in and out a lot easier, especially if they are at the bottom of the tank, also the tubes 'slide' a little bit inside the tank which I think helps with agitation. My set up is a model of simplicity !

[Kirk Gittings]

"Is tray developing still preferred even with 4X5 for b/w?"

I'm not aware that tray development is preferred for 4x5 b&w. Some people like trays, others use other methods (e.g. tubes, tanks, drums). I used trays (for 8x10) for a while and never liked them - too much standing around in the dark inhaling chemical fumes and shuffling film. I prefer the BTZS tubes myself. I'd guess that for 4x5 b&w tray users actually are a relatively small minority and that tray usage goes up as film size goes up.

Me too BTZS, after many years of tray developing.

[PViapiano]

Started with trays (which I actually liked) and moved to a Unicolor drum (4 sheet capacity) and handrolling (great results)...

Just bought a used Phototherm processor that will do 4 sheets at a time, total automatic processor like the Jobo ATLs...haven't run it through it's paces yet...

[Ole Tjugen]

Agreed with the others. Jobo is quite simple to use. The expert drums will give you more even development as opposed to the 2500 series reels.


I use 2500 series reels for up to 4x5", and 2800 series tanks (print drums) for larger sizes. Perfectly even development on a JOBO CPE2.

If expert drums gives you more even development than the reels, you must be doing something wrong. :)

[Jiri Vasina]

Ole, I have a related questions to you (and all those that use the 2800 series tanks).

How much developer do you use for 2820 tank and 2509N reels with 4x5" sheet film?
How much do you use for larger sized sheets developed in 2830 tank? Have you used more than one 4x5" reel in 2830 tank (I think that 2 of the reels would fit in - to speed development of E-6 or similar reasons) - does it work well? and how much developer do you use?

I don't want to hijack a thread, if I should start a new thread I'll do it.

Thanks for the answers.

[Ole Tjugen]

I just follow the instructions on the tank...

I round the minimum chemistry volumes up enough to make mixing easy, but that's about it. I develop the sheet films in 2800 series tanks by just following the instructions for paper.

The 2830 tank is not the same size as the 2530(?) tank, so I don't use reels in the 28xx tanks. I have one of the two-reel 25xx tanks, but have only used it once.

Oh - and I always do a pre-wash with the 2800 series tanks. On the rare occasions where there has been some anti-halation dye left on the back of the sheet I let that sheet soak in a tray with water for ten minutes, and it's gone.

[Michael Graves]

I've got a pair of 2509 reels and a pair of tanks. They give excellent results. I still ordered myself a 3010 to give myself for my birthday because of my Coordination Deficiency Syndrome. Even with the fancy loader, I find loading the reels to be a bit of a pain for me. I only have partial use of my right hand, so it's probably much easier for others who use the reels. But I've never gotten uneven development from the reels, even if I load them all the way up. Don't use them for stand development, though. That didn't work too good.

[Gene McCluney]

I shoot a lot of film. I use 3.5 gallon deep tanks and stainless-steel film hangars, I use the hangars that hold 4-sheets of 4x5, and 2-sheets of 5x7. I can develop 40 sheets of 4x5 in one run, or about 20 sheets of 5x7..or 10 sheets of 8x10 (that would be 10 hangars at once, for each size). I always pre-soak, to aid in getting even results.

[Scott Kathe]

Please excuse my ignorance but why not a Nikor tank? A mint condition Nikor tank with reel and retaining band went for about $130 (buy it now) the other night on the auction site. I was very tempted but I need snow tires more than a daylight tank:( The Nikor tanks can be hard to find but but cost about the same as a new pair of 2500 series tanks and a pair of reels. With a pair of Jobo reels you can do 8 or maybe 12 sheets depending on who you listen to. I've never used either system since I do tray processing but it would be nice to use a daylight tank. You can do 12 sheets in the Nikkor tank and it is a lot less expensive than the Jobo Expert drum where you max out at 10 sheets. Any thoughts?

Scott

[venchka]

Scott,

I was wondering the same thing when shopping last summer for a daylight 4x5 developing solution. I did see a Nikkor tank at that time. I think it went for $130 or more. I had also decided against any more eBay auctions. Fortunately for me, a member on another forum came forward with a 2501 tank, 2 35/120/220 reels, 2509 reel, 4x5 loader for the 2509 reel, Expert 3010 tank and the sponge plunger for the 3010 for $125 including shipping. It was a no brainer decision for me.

It's all about timing I guess.

[Scott Kathe]

Wayne,

Congrats on your find! I'll keep looking for a deal like yours;)

Scott

[venchka]

They're out there. I don't usually find them. Most of the time I find out from the person who got the deal.

[audioexcels]

So from what I am gathering, so far I have concluded this much:

1) Not using trays is best for b/w for the reasons stated. It's still something one can do, but with the cheap devices nowadays, it's not worth the bother with.

2) Expert drums have consistent results. They are easier to work with for some. They are basically, what I would say, a CPP2 processor vs. a CPA2 processor where the CPP2 adds those extra bits of features for convenience, but both can give equally good results.

3) Results from Expert drums is no different than using the regular drums with a smaller machine like the CPE2/+. However, some have had issues getting as good of or rather, as consistent of results as they have with the Expert drums. How inconsistent it has been with some using the regular vs. the Expert has not been answered just yet, but it sounds like, along with the convenience/workflow factor, that the Expert drums have been a great investment for those that do not want the fuss/bother, and also see a much higher success rate in processing.

4) Ole pointed out that he has not had any issues using the regular drums. Are there more that have had similar success and if Ole is reading this, can you tell me if you have ever used and/or seen the results from using the Expert Drums? I guess it is to say, if one has not seen the results from an Expert Drum and has only the regular drums as a basis for comparing, how does this basis serve as enough to know what is possible via Expert drums?


I ask these questions because I have the CPA-2 w/the two Expert Drums. I know this setup is worth around $1000. I can buy the CPE2 (keeping all the drums I would need from the CPA-2 kit I picked up) for about $200 or so. It's basically an $800 difference. This is why I posed the topic. Both to help me decide if the CPE2 is "at least" the equal of the larger CPA/CPP Processors using Expert Drums, as well as the better ways to develop b/w film.

So two questions to ask:

1) See above...Go with CPE2 or keep the CPA and/or sell it for a CPP2, but only for using the Expert drums.

2) Use the Jobo for b/w or buy one of the rollers people have mentioned to develop b/w?


Thanks everyone in this thread. I know these machines can all do the job, I know the convenience and quality of the Expert series of drums, but I'm trying to determine if $800 is worth having the Expert Drums to process my sheet film. I'm also very interested in what people are having to say about both sides of the debate regarding the Expert drums vs. the Regular drums, and also the methods for developing b/w film.