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View Full Version : Any idea what caused these lines on my negative?



Mark McCarvill
6-Nov-2007, 19:06
I tube-developed this T-MAX 400 negative (http://www.stepwise.ca/Lines.jpg) for 22 min in Pyrocat-HD 1:2:200, agitating 30 sec to start and 10 sec at 11 min. I've used this technique with success many times with my home-made tubes; this is the first time I've gotten these lines (and theyíre on the negative, not just the scan).

Rick Floyd
6-Nov-2007, 21:38
Mark:

I'm no expert; however, I've seen similar lines due to a weak fixer in simple tank development over the years with old D-76. The last time it happened to me I just happened to catch it before the wash and after replenishing the fixer the lines went away. Great composition and worth a second shoot if possible, imho.

RF

Jorge Gasteazoro
7-Nov-2007, 00:38
Before I got the Jobo I did some tube development before I settled on brush development. When I saw line like this it was due to a couple of things. One, the tube was contaminated with fixer or the developer was hotter than the water bath. But they were not as evenly spaced and regular as your example. I get the feeling the film got stressed when you got it out of the tube.

Mark McCarvill
7-Nov-2007, 08:09
Thanks for the ideas.

Yes, I did notice that my fixer is a bit old, so I was planning to make some fresh stuff.

And I may have splashed some hot water on the tube when I gave it a quick rinse after it came out of the fixing container, as I regulated the water temperature. I had replaced the cap on the tube, so the negative didnít get the hot water directly, but maybe the temperature rise was enough to stress it. In any case, I'll be more careful with this from now on.

And thanks for the kind words, Rick. What I posted was a crop. Valuable to know it can work as-is! Here's the full frame. (http://www.stepwise.ca/Lines_full.jpg)

scott_6029
7-Nov-2007, 08:20
The posts above should fix it...make sure you rinse out the tank before next development - as previous chems can cause problems...check for freshness of pyro, if it starts to get 'exhuasted' it may cause streaking (my problems with streaking were in trays with weak developer - I sometimes rotate the negative in the tray which helps and use fresh pyro). Did you pre-soak for the same amount of time as usual? I pre-soak and think that helps too.

Fred L
7-Nov-2007, 08:50
You also have a strange finger like shape in the lower right corner going through the second rock from the right. Not sure if this is related at all to the lines as it's a totally different artifact.

Is this Oxtongue Rapids ? Looks like the spot near the shelter.

keith english
7-Nov-2007, 09:10
The backing on Tmax can be stubborn. If it is just the back dye you can sometimes re-fix the negs and re-wash. It seems like hypo-eliminator rinses also help remove the backing. Hopefully it is not stress marks.

Mark McCarvill
7-Nov-2007, 10:12
You also have a strange finger like shape in the lower right corner going through the second rock from the right.

Yes, thatís on the negative too. Strange negative indeed.


Is this Oxtongue Rapids ? Looks like the spot near the shelter.
Good eye, Fred. I just discovered this little park last month. Here's another pic (http://www.markmccarvill.com), a bit further up the river.

Mark McCarvill
7-Nov-2007, 10:16
Did you pre-soak for the same amount of time as usual? I pre-soak and think that helps too.

I did about a 5-min pre-soak, with maybe 30 sec worth of agitation, rolling the tube back and forth. I usually do a bit more pre-soak agitation, so I did skimp a bit this time. Thanks - I hadnít thought of that variable at all.

Bernard Kaye
7-Nov-2007, 16:46
Look to left bottom: is that a shadow of you? There is something there, same latitude as finger on right.
Now, crop to eliminate bottom of print at bit of log at left margin; at 5 x 8" or so ratio, it is just great; foreground is not necessary.

Great feeling!

Bernie

Bernard Kaye
7-Nov-2007, 16:54
If you crop out bottom rocks, the picture leaps out at you.

Bernie

sanking
8-Nov-2007, 09:19
How did you fix the negatives? In the tube or in tray? And if in a tray with several negatives, did you shuffle the negatives constantly? Fresh fixer is assumed?

The backing on some films, TMY for example, is hard to remove, and if you develop in a tube or in a Jobo very little solution reaches the back of the film. That means that when then film comes out of the tubes there is still a lot of backing that needs to be removed. If you just place the negatives together in a tray and don't give adequate agitation you won't get complete clearing of the back. I have seen marks similar to those on your film from inadequate agitation of the film in the fixing bath.

Sandy King

Mark McCarvill
8-Nov-2007, 12:07
How did you fix the negatives? In the tube or in tray? And if in a tray with several negatives, did you shuffle the negatives constantly?

I fix the negative by placing the tube (with the negative inside) in a container of fix and spinning it vigorously for about 5 minutes, all with the lights off. And the fix can get to the back of the film, because itís separated from the tube by a thin sheet of fiberglass mesh.


Fresh fixer is assumed?
No, fixer was made in July. I donít do a lot of development, so I've been making a fresh batch every 4 months or so. Is there a rule of thumb on this, like fix x sheets and toss the fix? Or toss the fix after x days / weeks / months?

I'm also curious about the mechanics of how inadequate fixing can produce these lines.

Fred L
8-Nov-2007, 12:38
Is it possible these lines are a film defect ? Too regular to be static...then there's that finger like thing.

Mark McCarvill
8-Nov-2007, 14:25
Too regular to be static...

Interesting that you mentioned static because I was wondering about this. The film holders were kept for weeks beside my scanner. I was wondering if magnetism from the scanner motor (or something like that) might have affected the unexposed (or exposed) film. I've since moved all my film away from the scanner, not wanting to take a chance.

Fred L
8-Nov-2007, 14:49
What caught my eye was the pattern the lines made. They were kinda scalloped. I've never seen anything like from processing but who knows ? It'd be interesting to sacrifice a sheet to see if the scanner is the cause.

sanking
8-Nov-2007, 15:14
I fix the negative by placing the tube (with the negative inside) in a container of fix and spinning it vigorously for about 5 minutes, all with the lights off. And the fix can get to the back of the film, because it’s separated from the tube by a thin sheet of fiberglass mesh.


No, fixer was made in July. I don’t do a lot of development, so I've been making a fresh batch every 4 months or so. Is there a rule of thumb on this, like fix x sheets and toss the fix? Or toss the fix after x days / weeks / months?

I'm also curious about the mechanics of how inadequate fixing can produce these lines.

I don't believe that a 5 minute fix with the film in drums, even with the mesh, is adequate. And certainly not if the film is TMY. To remove the backing with TMY I fix for up to 10 minutes in tray, and often have to place the film in hypo clear or a 1% sodium sulfite solution to get rid of all of the backing.

With your procedure I can not explain the lines. However, when various sheets of film are fixed in tray, with inadequate shuffling agitation, these kind of lines would not be unexpected.

Sandy King

Andrew O'Neill
8-Nov-2007, 19:31
agitating 30 sec to start and 10 sec at 11 min.

I don't quite understand this. You are working in a tube, so you would obviously be agitating for the entire time...unless your tubes are completely full and you are standing the tubes up when resting for semi-stand development?
I used to get similar lines (which was from mottling) when I let the film rest lying in the tube on the counter which was full of developer. I solved this problem by standing it up. I doubt very much that your lines are from static.
Try getting into the habit of fixing your negs in a tray. TMX is very stubborn when it comes to removing the blue backing...

Mark McCarvill
9-Nov-2007, 07:34
I don't quite understand this. You are working in a tube, so you would obviously be agitating for the entire time...unless your tubes are completely full and you are standing the tubes up when resting for semi-stand development?

Itís the latter; they stand upright between agitation cycles.


I used to get similar lines (which was from mottling) when I let the film rest lying in the tube on the counter which was full of developer. I solved this problem by standing it up. I doubt very much that your lines are from static. Try getting into the habit of fixing your negs in a tray. TMX is very stubborn when it comes to removing the blue backing...

Funny, but there is no blue backing at all left on this neg. The edges are completely clear, apart from the usual pyro stain. When I do get a spot of blue dye left on a negative (which is rare) I just wash in Permawash for another 1-2 min and it disappears.

I wonder if these lines are maybe just a byproduct of stand development; an air bubble or something that caused the ripples. I know one takes a chance with stand development, so maybe this is the 1 time out of 25 it didnít work out. Still, I think I'll reduce the maximum period without agitation to 8 minutes just as a precaution.

Andrew O'Neill
9-Nov-2007, 13:18
If it only happened to the one sheet then I would attribute it to the photo gremlins and move on...if it happens again, well...then I would reassess my development method. Also when doing stand or semi-stand development it is always wise to expose a backup.