Bye Bye EPN, EPR, HIE

[rjphil]

Hi -
I was sent this link this AM by another film guy... EPR, EPN and HIE36x are going away at the end of the year. :mad: Really upsetting, as I use a lot of EPN for photographing artwork. Guess I'll have to go "green".

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/products/films/discontinuedNotice.jhtml?id=0.2.26.14.25&lc=en

[JimmyB]

The discontinuance of HIE is going to hit me hard. NOTHING is equivalent to it. Time to start clearing the food out of the freezer and making room for some HIE. :)

[Juergen Sattler]

This sucks! Big time! I use HIE in my good old Canon AE-1 and love it - nothing else gives an IR picture that glow that HIE has. I tried the new Rollei film, but it just is not the same. And digital IR just is too clean looking - IR needs film grain. I think I'll get drunk now - only kidding!

[venchka]

These discontinuances are effective in all countries worldwide, with one exception: KODAK PROFESSIONAL EKTACHROME 64 Film / EPR will continue to ship to Japan beyond 2007.



Looks like there will be an underground ebay supply route for EPR. If you can make & ship the film to Japan, why can't you make and ship the film to Podunk, USA?

[John O'Connell]

I use HIE exclusively right now in 135, but I don't know how committed I am to filling the freezer with $13 a roll film that goes bad fast. And I can't throw Ctein money at HIE right now, so . . .

[Juergen Sattler]

I use HIE exclusively right now in 135, but I don't know how committed I am to filling the freezer with $13 a roll film that goes bad fast. And I can't throw Ctein money at HIE right now, so . . .

I have never frozen HIE, but I am seriously thinking about it now - I would assume that it will keep fresh in the freezer for quite some time - am I mistaken? Any experiences?

[SamReeves]

Another Kodak pillar falls. Time to try something different I suppose?

[Marko]

This sucks! Big time! I use HIE in my good old Canon AE-1 and love it - nothing else gives an IR picture that glow that HIE has. I tried the new Rollei film, but it just is not the same. And digital IR just is too clean looking - IR needs film grain. I think I'll get drunk now - only kidding!

Well, that'll certainly make digital glow! But that too can get expensive if you use quality "developer"... :D

If you really like the look, there certainly are ways to accomplish similar results with digital IR files. Or you can adjust to the change and go for a new look. With digital IR, you can also play with false color at the same time, for example.

This is yet another indicator that Kodak really seems determined to exit the film market, just as it did with papers, once they milk what they can out of it. Although I am much more digitally inclined, I do like to play with film too and I hate to think about the anguish this must be causing to the film only folks.

It is a pity, really, to see the paramount of an era go, especially in such a non-dignified and dishonest way. But it is their decision (at least I hope it is a decision and not simply stumbling) and I see no reason why I should support them in doing so. I'd much rather direct my humble few bucks I spend on film to manufacturers who see film as their main business and who intend to remain in it. For me, that leaves Ilford and, if I shot color, Fuji. Perhaps it is time to both help them stay in the business and help Kodak die quickly rather than wither and pull everybody along with them.

[John Kasaian]

Kodak went through the same realigning with it's B&W line up a few years back. I hate to say such jockeying around is inevitable due to "digitalis" but if the TMY news is accurate what products that do remain in the Great Yellow Father in Rochester's stable will only improve in order to be more competitive (which isn't a bad thing, right?) The loss of course is are the unique products (AZO, HIE etc...) that one supposed just weren't selling enough to justify production :(
The Old Yellow Mare ain't what she used to be, but neither is the photographic market!

[Gordon Moat]

About f*(%ing time they got rid of those. They need to clean out, streamline, and supply the newer (arguably better) films like the E family of transparency films. Still, it is a shame about the IR film, though I never have used that.

Kodak increased profits on declining film sales. Nice short summary article (http://members.whattheythink.com/news/newslink.cfm?id=29486) I read this morning. Earnings from film are still better than earnings from Consumer Digital. The Digital earnings that are doing well for them are mostly from numerous commercial printing and graphic arts product lines . . . this is the true nature of digital for Kodak, and not little pocket cameras.

The downside of this is that to increase film revenues while film sales decline means higher prices for all of us. I am certain Fuji will continue to increase prices in line with moves Kodak makes. Between Kodak and Fuji, the 4x5 transparency market is well served (in my opinion).

Ciao!

Gordon Moat (http://www.gordonmoat.com)

[JimmyB]

I have never frozen HIE, but I am seriously thinking about it now - I would assume that it will keep fresh in the freezer for quite some time - am I mistaken? Any experiences?

I've always frozen my infrared film as soon as I get it. Just make sure to bring it up to room temperature slowly and fully before loading. I usually stick it in the refrigerator for a day, and then a cooler of some sort to slowly bring up to room temp over another day or so. I also keep it in a zip-top plastic bag to prevent condensation. I my be overly careful, but I've kept outdated HIE in my freezer for over 2 years and never had a problem with it. I've heard it can be stored in the freezer for much longer, but I seem to shoot it before then. :)

As a side note, I've been using 4x5 Efke IR 820 with a Hoya R72 filter recently and love the results. Not quite the punch of HIE, but it is available in 4x5.

Jimmy

[Kirk Gittings]

EPN is one of the standard films for architectural photographers too. It is very forgiving in mixed light situations.

[Armin Seeholzer]

Hi Juergen

I still work with HIE 4x5 Filmsheets which is gone some years ago. And I alway's have some 35mm in my freezer to!
They hold at least 6 years with not any change!
And I think they hold 10 years with almost no change!
And longer I don't no jet!
Hope it helps, buy them like mad and maybe they change there mind at Kodak!
Goo luck Armin

[Mark Sampson]

EPN is also well-known to have the most accurate color of the E6 films. On the other hand, EPR has been around for 30 years, and people have been complaining about its color for just as long. One reason for Fuji's success in the US market, in the 1980's, was Kodak's refusal to take the blue out of EPR (just add an 81C filter! was the advice). Many people went green just because they didn't like EPR or EK's arrogance. I'm surprised that with all the options EK has offered, that EPR has lasted as long as it has.

[Juergen Sattler]

Thansk Armin and Jimmy,

I will keep buying and filling the freezer until they make no more.

[Ted Harris]

Kirk, Mark and others. I have only used EPN on rare occasions when Astia was not available, not frequently enough to be able to make any side-by-side comparisons. Anyone who has shot extensively with both films care to weigh in?

[walter23]

As a side note, I've been using 4x5 Efke IR 820 with a Hoya R72 filter recently and love the results. Not quite the punch of HIE, but it is available in 4x5.

Jimmy

The only thing I don't like about this film is the speed - sometimes I don't want my clouds to be blurry from motion.

[Michael Mutmansky]

Ted,

Not extensively, but my side-by-side tests with both gave me a distinct impression that that the Astia film has a more natural color to my eyes. EPN seemed a little magenta in balance, moreso than was actually there. I preferred Astia.

I found Astia has very good mixed lighting tolerance, much better than most other films, but the more magenta look of EPN made it a little better for fluorescent/daylight mixes. For incandescent, I think they were somewhat of a wash.

The reciprocity characteristics of Astia and the better overall color balance made the decision for me fairly easy. The minor color shifts that it shows in mixed fluorescent lighting conditions are easily corrected digitally, so I've not felt that it was a real drawback, especially since I would probably be doing that with EPN as well, even though it was slightly better in this regard.

These comments are all from memory, so I may have the details a little garbled.

I know that many architectural photographers have been EPN people for years. I suspect that some of the places will buy a few years worth of EPN and hope that they can smoothly transition to digital before the film runs out. I'll be surprised if a firm like H-B doesn't take that approach.

The big question in my mind is whether Astia will remain around... I've heard rumblings that it may be on the chopping block soon as well. This is coming from a source that told me last spring that EPN was on it's way out, so I have some faith in the accuracy of the news.

The issue as I understand it is Fuji and Kodak are trying to consolidate their production lines somewhat. Film that has no consumer equivalent will be cut in favor of a production line that has the ability to be applied to both consumer and professional film products. I don't know how this all works out, but that seems like a plausible explanation for what is happening.


---Michael

[David A. Goldfarb]

I've always liked the neutrality of EPN for copy work. I like Astia as well, but usually find it a hair on the cool side, which I usually adjust with an 81A or KR1.5.

[Michael Mutmansky]

David,

While I found the EPN a touch magenta, it wasn't in the normal overall color balance of regular subject matter. In these cases, it was geerally a wash.

Where is showed up for me most is in two situations. One, neutral or close to neutral painted walls/ceilings. Normally a slightly warm white color. They felt a bit too magenta for my taste. The other was on some tiles that have an already warm ruddy brown color. The EPN made them look too pink/magenta/red rather than sandy/tan/brown. In these cases, Astia looked more 'correct'. While the magenta balance was very appealing for warming up wood finishes and generally warm balance colors, the neutrals seemed to give me fits, and certain colors seemed to go haywire on me.

If Astia had disappeared first, I'd be happy to use EPN, but as it is, I had chosen Astia, so I'm not directly affected at the moment. I don't like not having choices, though.


---Michael

[Armin Seeholzer]

There was one fact about EPN it was the only and is still the only Film which give very acurate gray if the Kelvin is right from the lighting!
Armin

[Kirk Gittings]

David,

While I found the EPN a touch magenta, it wasn't in the normal overall color balance of regular subject matter. In these cases, it was geerally a wash.

Where is showed up for me most is in two situations. One, neutral or close to neutral painted walls/ceilings. Normally a slightly warm white color. They felt a bit too magenta for my taste. The other was on some tiles that have an already warm ruddy brown color. The EPN made them look too pink/magenta/red rather than sandy/tan/brown. In these cases, Astia looked more 'correct'. While the magenta balance was very appealing for warming up wood finishes and generally warm balance colors, the neutrals seemed to give me fits, and certain colors seemed to go haywire on me.

If Astia had disappeared first, I'd be happy to use EPN, but as it is, I had chosen Astia, so I'm not directly affected at the moment. I don't like not having choices, though.


---Michael

I completely agree. EPN was not very neutral. As a matter of fact, the Magenta bias was why it was popular amongst arch photographers for shooting in mixed fluorescent/daylight situations which became more pronounced with long exposures. You could do a long ambient light exposure with a flash fill and in the mix EPN worked better than any other film. I first became aware of this from Nick Merrick (Hedrick Blessing). I didn't believe it until I did side by side tests. In normal situations it looked magenta compared side by side to any other film.

[JimmyB]

The only thing I don't like about this film is the speed - sometimes I don't want my clouds to be blurry from motion.

Very true. Everything has to be quite still since I'm exposing at ISO 3. That would be the "High-Speed" part of High-Speed Infrared I'll miss about HIE.

[David A. Goldfarb]

EPN's magenta cast might have been a reciprocity effect. I was always using it with strobes, and I suspect the same is true for Armin, who also thinks of it as a very neutral film. I forget if EPN was supposed to be optimized for short exposures, but I've seen some films that will start to go magenta or blue with exposures longer than 1/30 sec.

[Andrew O'Neill]

I still haven't gotten over the loss of Kodak 4x5 IR. Tried Rollei but it ain't nowhere near the same. Then tried Efke IR...I'd swear it was Rollei but on a heavier base...and who wants to always shoot it at an EI of 3 or 6 all the time? I wish someone would make a film like Kodak's. Suprised the Chinese haven't...yet.

[al olson]

This is indeed bad news. First they abandon the IR sheet film and now they drop HIE in 35mm. I wonder about the status of EIR ... or is it already gone? Maybe I missed the news. It would stand to reason that if they are dropping other Ektachrome coatings, EIR would get the double whammy.

Just did an inventory of my freezer and I have one roll of EIR and two rolls of HIE left. (I already decided that I am not going to do any more Ilfachrome so I have no interest in shooting EIR anymore.)

In the past I have been informed that Kodak only coats HIE once a year and that time is sometime around the February/March time frame. That would mean that, with the timing of this announcement, the only HIE that will be available is what is in the pipeline. Guess it is time to order a few more boxes.

Oh well! There is still Efke/MACO/Rollei. At least they supply both roll and sheets. Not good for fast shutter photography, though ... and digital IR never looks the same. Darn!!!!!!!!

Baaaaaad News!

[rjphil]

As I said in my first post, I had been using Astia quite happily until they reformulated it a few years back. As I was coming up to a large 4x5 job, I got a small box of the Astia for color testing. It came up very yellow-green, processed in my own E6 line that had been running both Kodak and Fuji very cleanly for a long time. I got two different answers from Fuji as to the cause (neither applied to me), and then they suggested that I mix up a separate line for Fuji only. Not going to happen. Tested EPN and have been happy ever since - at least until the other day. :mad:
Guess it's back to testing Astia, after I buy a supply of EPN...

[vann webb]

This is some of the most depressing news that I have seen in some time as HIE is one of my favorite films. I am going to miss it badly. Nothing else has the same look, and it is fun to shoot. I knew that it would happen eventually, but didn't think that it would happen this soon. What a drag.

[roteague]

I got two different answers from Fuji as to the cause (neither applied to me), and then they suggested that I mix up a separate line for Fuji only. Not going to happen.

Not all E6 kits are alike. According to a retired Kodak engineer on APUG, the Kodak E6 kits had a proprietary formula, that none of the others did. One of the reasons Fuji tells everyone that Velvia loses 1/3 stop in Kodak chemicals. I don't know what kit you bought, but you might try using the Fuji chemicals instead, or have them sent to a lab that does (Calypso is one).