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John Kasaian
21-Oct-2007, 08:10
In Michael Kadillac's thread on Kodak's improved TMY, and elsewhere here, the issue of the cost of sheet film has been brought up. I had just visited two websites where I buy nearly all my film (Badger Graphic and Freestyle) and it occurred to me that the cost difference between emulsions is, well, kind of trivial. Of the five emulsions I shoot in 8x10---TMY, TXP, FP--4+ and Arista.edu100Ultra, the diffference between the highest (TMY) and the lowest (Arista.edu100Ultra) cost is around a dollar a sheet. If I include HP-5+ and FOMA's versions the spread is still about the same and the difference between the TMY and the bulk of the others (Kodak, Ilford and Foma) runs about a dime per sheet.

The past where Kodak film is priced disproportionally higher than say, Ilford is in the past (I won't speculate on whether Kodak was artificially higher or Ilford was just sold too cheaply--it is needless to say the sheet film market has been and is going through growing--or is it shrinking?--Pains!)

When I think of the cost of the chemicals to soup each exposure, the cost of film is trivial. The lesson then, is to shoot the emulsion you enjoy using.

A much larger issue is budgeting in order to buy film. The student or hobby-ist isn't likely to part with vast sums of money for film, so here the cost becomes an issue---a fifty sheet box is a considerable amount to invest in, especially for an untried emulsion. OTOH if it is an emulsion you like 50 sheets is a convenience and often less per sheet (though not all that much less.) The 25 sheet box is the standard, it seems and I think people are more prone to spring for an $80 box of 25 sheets than $150 for a typical 50 sheet box, but those 50 sheet boxes are nice! When I shoot Foma 100 I actually prefer buying the Arista label which comes in a 50 sheet box over the original Foma in 25 sheet offering (the cost difference between per sheet the two isn't so great that I find it to be a consideration)

OK thats my morning ramble. What are your opinions?

Nick_3536
21-Oct-2007, 08:22
My last order from Freestyle cost me about $40 in shipping. 100 rolls of 120. 100 sheets of 5x7. If I split that order half it wouldn't have saved me much if anything in shipping.

So for me the cost of shipping means I order bigger amounts but less often. It's a pain when I forget something but otherwise works.

Smaller boxes would force me to order more boxes for the same total number of sheets.

I've no idea what chemicals you're using but chemicals are a small fraction of my film costs.

BradS
21-Oct-2007, 12:24
I have to agree with you John. I used to worry about the cost of the film and try to get the best value. I wasted a lot of time and energy and still worse, probably lost some potentially good shots. Frugality with regard to film is folly. Compared to the cost of blowing a shot, the cost of a sheet of film is insignificant.

I have since decided to shoot pretty much only kodak Tri-X in B&W. Could have just as easily chosen TMY and may have if it were as widely available as TXP.

I must say that TXP has it's quirks but and may be one of the most expensive but, it has never let me down - and that assurace is worth it.

Capocheny
21-Oct-2007, 13:30
LOL... great morning ramble John! :)

I think the cost of a sheet of film relative to the time, effort, and energy spent in "getting the shot" is pretty inexpensive.

Secondly, the intangible value of that sheet of film relative to the "enjoyment" one derives from getting the image (and seeing it up on the wall is), as the Mastercard advertisment says, "priceless!"

Thirdly, when you look at the cost of a 50-sheet box of paper and compare it to the cost of smoking cigarettes (spread over the same period of time required to expose, process, and print those 50 sheets)... the cost of the 50 sheets of film is pretty minimal!

Lastly, life is too short and, if you enjoy photography... what the heck! A 50-sheet box of film can be a good reason for why you bust your a** off at work every day!

Ok, ok... I'll get off the pulpit now! :)

Cheers

bigdog
21-Oct-2007, 14:15
Frugality with regard to film is folly.

Photography is not for the faint of wallet. :D

Daniel_Buck
21-Oct-2007, 15:54
I've often wondered if it's possible to buy a large case of film, 'bulk' film at a cheaper price in the long run? Like a case of 500 sheets or something?

I don't shoot very much though, only about 4-6 sheets per weekend. That's not much, considering each sheet is about $1. :)

BradS
21-Oct-2007, 19:32
last night, I took my accountant and our two kids out to Chineese. War Won-ton soup, pot stickers, lemon chicken, salt-n-pepper fish, mu-shu chicken and hot tea all around. The bill came to right around $60. add a tip and I'm easily at the cost of a 50 sheet box of TXP - in 5x7 to boot! A nice meal lasts a night. 50 sheets of 5x7 film lasts...what, a few months or so? (and a well printed photo from that box last a life time!...or, more!)

Film is cheap! Buy the best you can afford and don't worry about it.

Dirk Rösler
21-Oct-2007, 20:57
As Mike Johnston put it, photography is not a way to save money but something to save money for.

On the other hand, I just shot two packs of Velvia Quickloads handheld yesterday within two hours... :eek:

SamReeves
21-Oct-2007, 22:12
Yup, especially large format photography which can come down like a bunch of bricks in your pocket book. But we do it anyways! :p

I have jumped Kodak's ship though when they changed the Tri-X formula around 2001 or so. Tried some HP5 and have stuck with it since it is a bit cheaper.

Nick_3536
22-Oct-2007, 03:23
I've often wondered if it's possible to buy a large case of film, 'bulk' film at a cheaper price in the long run? Like a case of 500 sheets or something?


Don't know about film but the local shops used to stock paper in 1000 sheet boxes.

Mark Sampson
22-Oct-2007, 05:05
On a related note, I've never understood why any manufacturer makes sheet film in a 25 sheet box. A film holder has two sides... an odd-number box always leaves you with one half-empty holder, or opening the next box of film. I just wish Kodak still sold 100-sheet boxess of 4x5.

Salty
22-Oct-2007, 05:21
I don't shoot as much 8x10 as I should so I occasionally take the camera out back and do a few shots. For this purpose the Arista.EDU.Ultra is good enough. I have a few 100 sheet boxes of 8x10 generic FP4 that I bought for around $129/box from Ultrafineonline a few years ago, sitting in the deep freeze. I also have some HP5+ to pick from in case I shoot something that is important to me.

Don Wallace
25-Oct-2007, 08:40
I couldn't agree more with the idea of buying the best you can. Cheap film is not worth it.

About two years, two friends went digital and GAVE me all of their leftover film, including several boxes of HP5, FP4, and Tech Pan, all in 4x5 and 8x10. Also included was quite a bit of Super XX and Plus X, neither of which I have used yet. I really got spoiled and when it finally came time to buy some, my wallet almost crawled under a duck (to quote Raymond Chandler).

A while ago, I bought some outdated 8x10 Portra just for fun. It was only 20 bucks for 10 sheets. I found out I LOVE it and THEN found out that a box, in Canada, is 120 bucks, before the 14% tax!!!!! Only 71 bucks in NYC. Our dollar is now worth a little more than the US dollar. What gives? It can't be that they already have older and more expensive stock here because it is all special order anyway.

Brian Vuillemenot
25-Oct-2007, 11:17
You B&W guys have it cheap- Velvia 4X5 quickloads are now $4.00 each, and 8X10 transparency sheet film is around $9.00-$10.00 a sheet!

Zach In Israel
25-Oct-2007, 11:59
I'm currently looking for the cheapest B&W film I can find, as I plan to use a box of it as test shots on a camera I am going to build. Basically expose, examine, adjust the camera and repeat until focus is perfect

G Benaim
25-Oct-2007, 13:50
Zach, just use paper for that. What size, btw?

Gene McCluney
25-Oct-2007, 14:08
I'm currently looking for the cheapest B&W film I can find, as I plan to use a box of it as test shots on a camera I am going to build. Basically expose, examine, adjust the camera and repeat until focus is perfect

The cheapest fresh, in-date b/w sheet film available to United States shoppers would currently be Freestyle's Arista.edu.ultra which is Foma.

Nigel Smith
25-Oct-2007, 23:03
been awhile since I looked but I think a sheet of B&W 4x5 runs about $2 here in Oz. I bought ten 50 sheet boxes from a US based store that was offering free freight at the time (along with a heap of 120 roll film) and it worked out to about 12cents a sheet. At the time I had approx 150 sheets of various Ilford and Kodak so I thought the additional 500 sheets would last me awhile... well, at the rate I'm using it (close to zilch) I have several lifetimes supply!

Back to the orginal question, yep the film cost is a small part of the equation, unless you only shoot within walking distance of your house. Fuel, food and accomodation (if doing overnight trips) soon eclipses material costs.

I once bought a half dozen rolls of 120 by a manufacturer of European origin which was cheap. $2 instead of $7 or so for Ilford/Kodak. False economy though when there's flaws in the emulsion! I've still got a couple left in the fridge... one day I'll actually though them out!

Bobby Ironsights
26-Oct-2007, 23:03
I don't know about you guys, but I am a student, and a hobbyist, and a dollar a sheet isn't trivial.

I'm shooting 4x5, but I got a 250 sheet box of arista.edu 100 for about 60 bucks with shipping (as a portion of a larger order). (or wait....was it 60 bucks for the 8x10 paper, and 30 bucks for the film?....I can't remember and freestyle website is down again.)

It's not so much that I don't realise, that I should buy the best I can afford, it's that I need to shoot more to develop my skills, and that the difference between a great shot, and a slightly greater shot is moot, because I know I'm going to burn alot of shots looking for that "great" shot.

In fact, I'm still damaging the occasional 35mm neg with souping and handling issues, exposure issues, and trying the different homebuilt chemistries, looking for the soup and toners I like. (I homebrew all my chem's as a matter of course)

I'll have the 250 sheets in soon, and I don't expect them to last long. The real issue is paper. I'll burn 6 or more sheets before I find the print I like.

I'm a student, and my credit cards are smoking, but I've got photo fever, and so does my girlfriend.

I got about 80 sheets of expired paper, and now I've been waiting an hour and a half to get back in my darkroom (windowless bathroom) while she quickly converts them all into photograms. GRRR!!!

I normally use the expired paper I can get ahold of to get me into range for proper prints.

P.S. God bless 100lb bags of prismatic thiosulfate from the pool supply place, so I can afford to fix my stuff.

John Kasaian
27-Oct-2007, 10:23
I don't know about you guys, but I am a student, and a hobbyist, and a dollar a sheet isn't trivial.

I'm shooting 4x5, but I got a 250 sheet box of arista.edu 100 for about 60 bucks with shipping (as a portion of a larger order). (or wait....was it 60 bucks for the 8x10 paper, and 30 bucks for the film?....I can't remember and freestyle website is down again.)

It's not so much that I don't realise, that I should buy the best I can afford, it's that I need to shoot more to develop my skills, and that the difference between a great shot, and a slightly greater shot is moot, because I know I'm going to burn alot of shots looking for that "great" shot.

In fact, I'm still damaging the occasional 35mm neg with souping and handling issues, exposure issues, and trying the different homebuilt chemistries, looking for the soup and toners I like. (I homebrew all my chem's as a matter of course)

I'll have the 250 sheets in soon, and I don't expect them to last long. The real issue is paper. I'll burn 6 or more sheets before I find the print I like.

I'm a student, and my credit cards are smoking, but I've got photo fever, and so does my girlfriend.

I got about 80 sheets of expired paper, and now I've been waiting an hour and a half to get back in my darkroom (windowless bathroom) while she quickly converts them all into photograms. GRRR!!!

I normally use the expired paper I can get ahold of to get me into range for proper prints.

P.S. God bless 100lb bags of prismatic thiosulfate from the pool supply place, so I can afford to fix my stuff.

IMHO, price is no indication that a film will be the film you'll want to use. Paying a premium won' t make your photographs neccesarily any better. developing your eye and understanding how the materials that you're using will compliment each other will, IMHO.
Certainly there are better choices than others for certain given situations and emulsions that are suffering production problems are counterproductive, but these are rare circumstances.
If your intent is to cut expenses to the bone, make paper negatives!

LargeFormatShooter
27-Oct-2007, 14:26
last night, I took my accountant and our two kids out to Chineese. War Won-ton soup, pot stickers, lemon chicken, salt-n-pepper fish, mu-shu chicken and hot tea all around. The bill came to right around $60. add a tip and I'm easily at the cost of a 50 sheet box of TXP - in 5x7 to boot! A nice meal lasts a night. 50 sheets of 5x7 film lasts...what, a few months or so? (and a well printed photo from that box last a life time!...or, more!)

Film is cheap! Buy the best you can afford and don't worry about it.


Food? Film?

Film? Food?

That is a difficult question to answer!

ditkoofseppala
9-Mar-2008, 22:22
I'm sorry to have to disagree with more experienced heads here, but simple arithmetic is beyond argument. In the course of surveying the cost and availability of various b&w brands and emulsions, the following facts came to light. Without generating an exhaustive comparative pricelist, just a quick look at Arista EDU, Ilford FP4+, and Kodak TMY at Freestyle, on a per-sheet basis, using the most economic available packaging for each:

4x5 sheetfilm, per sheet:
EDU - .40 (50-sheet box)
FP4+ - .89 (100-sheet box)
TMY - 1.22 (50-sheet box)

8x10 sheetfilm, per sheet:
EDU - 1.80 (50-sheet box)
FP4+ - 3.28 (25-sheet box)
TMY - 3.08 (50-sheet box)

And if one had bought the 8x10 TMY at Badger, where it's only available in 10-sheet packages, it would cost $4.40 per sheet.

These are NOT trivial differences! In 4x5, the EDU is not just half-price, it's one-third the price of the TMY at the same store! And in 8x10, the unavailability of the 50-sheet box of FP4+ pushes the price well above that of the TMY in the more economical packaging. (I didn't bother to include B&H, as their wonky website works badly with my elderly browser and what I saw of their prices was well above anyone else's.)

Photography costs. All of it costs. Film is one of its ongoing expenses, versus the initial investment in equipment. These days, anyone who has the time and energy to prowl eBay, plus the willingness to research the market to KNOW what's a good price and what isn't, and the patience to wait (whatever you find there, however rare, there'll be another one along sooner or later, and probably sooner) -- will be able to assemble a fine working LF outfit for relative peanuts, compared to what the gear cost when it was new. But when you're looking at close to five bucks a pop, each time you click the shutter (if you're an 8x10 man), there's no question that it hurts the wallet. So, one has to play it smart. Use 35mm, 6x6, or even your trusty digital to explore ideas and gain experience, and PLAN the LF stuff carefully, making sure that each time you set up and expose film you are CREATING AN IMAGE rather than just popping off exposures in the time-honoured fashion to which we've all grown progressively accustomed through the days of 35mm and yet more in the digital era. And yes, why not give the cheaper east-European emulsions a fair trial, particularly during the learning phase.

Unfortunately, I think some of us may perhaps wind up just NOT going out and making images, just because of irritation at the high price of film, and that is truly a pity and a shame. Not everyone can afford to take John's advice and simply ignore the cost of film. But we CAN fight it by refusing to shoot LF wantonly. Methodically to visualise and to create an image from that visualisation is what Edward Weston, Ansel Adams, and Minor White (and others) taught us, and we still marvel at their creations.

Someone pointed out that simple rig-testing can be done using much cheaper photopaper in place of film. Ideas can be explored in smaller formats or in digital capture. Then when the IDEA is there, the one that can only be done justice to by the use of LF -- THEN is when we can't afford NOT to use that expensive sheetfilm.

Just my $0.02 reaction to this thread! :D

tim atherton
9-Mar-2008, 22:26
And if one had bought the 8x10 TMY at Badger, where it's only available in 10-sheet packages, it would cost $4.40 per sheet.



I think that's all it's going to be available in soon.

Turner Reich
10-Mar-2008, 03:15
I bought some 5x7 last weekend before the price went up, Kodak, the Freestyle price went up so I found it at another place where the price stayed the same for a couple of days longer. If I had known that Kodak film prices were going up I would have made a considerable investment. As it was I have film for quite a while so I'm not that unhappy. It's not that film is expensive but there is paper and mounting and framing materials etc. to consider. It's the total cost thats got my eye. It's no where near a crisis but like everything else you have keep an eye on the bottom line.

Jim Noel
10-Mar-2008, 15:33
I'm currently looking for the cheapest B&W film I can find, as I plan to use a box of it as test shots on a camera I am going to build. Basically expose, examine, adjust the camera and repeat until focus is perfect

This is perfect use for lith type films in camera. Extremely sharp, cheap, ($35 for 100 sheets) fast to develop - other films can't match these for the type testing you mention. I use APH and APHS from Freestyle frequently and and develop it either for high contrast or full scale. EI=6.