Portable 4x5 landscape camera

[fotogeek]

Hi All,

My first post on this forum. I own a Sinar F2 and have used it for many years both in the studio and in the field. I have a large photo backpack and have even hiked some distance with it on my back. But I'm getting older and the last time I did this I was exhausted after a few miles of walking. So I decided it was time to pick up a more portable 4x5 camera for hiking.

I know that there a many cameras by many manufactures that fit the bill but I am looking for the following features:
1) Relatively compact and light weight.
2) Quick, easy setup.
3) Able to handle 72mm to 500mm (Nikon tele) lens range.
4) Must be capable of front rise with 72mm wide angle lens.

A salesperson recommended an Ebony SV series which can be ordered with a "universal" bellows, apparently the front pleat is relaxed to allow for movement even when the bellows is compressed. But I thought I would ask for recommendations on this forum before spending big $$$ on the Ebony.

A single bellows would be nice as it is less to carry but I would not rule out a camera that has a standard and bag bellows so long as they are easily fitted to the camera in the field.

TIA

[Skorzen]

This is coming from someone who is new to the world of LF, but if I had the cash available (college student) I would look long and hard at the Chamionix 4X5 (do a search for info, I can't remember the model number off the top of my head). They look very nice and everyone seems to be happy with them and there is the added benefit that their price seems relatively affordable $699 plus $75 for shipping if I remember correctly. And it's light too at just over 3 pounds.

I know that I read somewhere that there is going to be a bag bellows coming out for it at some point so that should take care of the 72mm with front rise (if it can't do it without). I don't know what king of extension you need for the 500mm tele so I can't comment on that.

[Scott Rosenberg]

tia,

i backpack with my 4x5 all the time and went through many, many cameras trying to find the perfect solution. honestly, there are lots of options out there that will work well for you, and there are options out there that while perfect for someone else, will be terrible for you.

what works for me is the linhof technikas... they are, for the way i shoot, the perfect camera. i've owned ebonies, linhofs, canhams, and arca swiss rigs, and i can tell you that every system is a compromise. figure out what's important to you and then buy into the system that makes the fewest compromises there.

if monolithic stability and ease of use is the most important thing to you, look no further than the arca swiss cameras.

if size is a little more important than ease of use and range of movements, look no further than the technikas.

if weight is the most important thing, check out the canham dlc.

based on your list of 4 desires, i'd suggest taking a look at a linhof master tech 2000... it's compact, very quick to set up, and can handle a wide range of lenses (i shoot from 58 - 450 on mine... the 450 is on a top hat).

I have a preference for metal cameras, hence some of my suggestions. Many love the look / feel / weight of wooden cameras – I personally do not. Again, it comes down to what works for you. there are tons of options for you, but again, each comes with it's own set of limitations. figure out what's important to you, find a camera that excels in those areas, and get out and enjoy it!

[walter23]

I like my shenhao. Max bellows is about 330mm, but 300mm is sort of the easily accessible upper limit. Takes a bag bellows, which installs pretty quickly, letting you use very wide lenses. Well built; way more movements than most field cameras of this size... and uhh, $600 brand spankin' new!

[Michael Heald]

I use a Tachihara. Nice for backpacking and landscape. It will take the short lens without a bag bellows, I believe.
500mm, even with a tele lens, is a large order, I believe. Does any field camera allow lenses of this length.
A Bender type camera may be something you'd be interested in for a starter. Light, in expensive; and the bellows has the extension what you want. Not as sturdy, from what I've heard, as most field cameras, though for most landscape work, that wouldn't be a problem. Best regards.

Michael A. Heald

[Scott Rosenberg]

500mm, even with a tele lens, is a large order, I believe. Does any field camera allow lenses of this length.Michael A. Heald

not sure how much bellows is reuqired by a 500-tele, but i can shoot a straight 360 on a flat board on my mt2000. with a top hat, i can easily shoot a 450.

[davidb]

I've owned a few Zone VI cameras, a Wista SP, a Toyo 45a, and now have a Toyo 45AX which I really really like.

But since you are looking for something from 72mm to 500mm, I too would recommend the Chamonix. I don't own one yet but from what it looks like, it should be the camera you are looking for.

[Sheldon N]

I'd highly recommend the Arca Swiss 4x5 110-141mm F-Line Field with the 30cm telescoping rail.

Camera sets up and breaks down into two pieces (30 cm rail and both standards on one 15cm rail segment). Easy to set up, relatively compact to carry (I toss mine in a backpack). Read this thread for photos/more details

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=27514

Weight is just a shade over 6lbs, maybe 6 1/4. About the same or ever so slightly heavier than a Technika.

11 pleat leather bellows will allow extreme front rise with a 72mm lens, and about 360-380mm of maximum extension with a flat board (using the 30cm telescoping rail). The Nikkor 500mm has a FTF distance of about 350mm, so you could focus closer than infinity.

The beauty of the camera is the ease of use, and absolute rigidity. Plus, no swapping bellows in the field. Scott's recommendations are good too - Canham DLC for lighter weight (not as sturdy, a little more "fiddly"), Technika for a camera that folds up a little more compact than the Arca Field.

[Scott Rosenberg]

sheldon is spot on... the arca f-line cameras are the finest cameras i've ever used bar-none. my only beef with the older 171 series is the amount of room they require in a backpack. the newer arca fields are much smaller... not much on paper, but a considerable amount when packed.

IMHO, either a technika or arca are the best of what's around. the linhof is smaller, the arca has more movements and is somewhat easier to operate... it comes down to what matters to you most.

[Rakesh Malik]

I use a Tachihara. Nice for backpacking and landscape. It will take the short lens without a bag bellows, I believe.
500mm, even with a tele lens, is a large order, I believe. Does any field camera allow lenses of this length.


My Ebony SV45U has a 450mm upper limit, which is just enough to focus the Nikon 720mm tele lens. The bellows extention required for that one is around 450mm. I do have to use movements to stretch the camera a little more than what the focussing rails will give me, but that isn't necessary for the 500mm lens.

I think that the 500mm version requires less bellows than you think it does. :)

[fotogeek]

OK, a few more questions.

The Arca Swiss is a fine camera but would it be all that much different than my current Sinar F2 in terms of weight and bulk? Sheldon mentions the telescoping rail, is the folding rail less desirable? Could I buy a used Arca Swiss with folding rail and replace it with the telescoping? Is this the older camera that you speak of Scott? http://photo.net/gc/view-one?classified_ad_id=695618 Sorry, I am not familiar with the Arca Swiss line.

I laid my hands on a Canham DLC45 at the Photo Fair in San Jose last weekend. It's a fairly spiffy piece of gear and will certainly handle a Nikon 500mm tele but it looked like it would take a long time to fold and set up with all of the levers and knobs. Also, it did not look like I could get much front rise with a W/A lens due to the design of the bellows.

Rakesh, are you able to get front rise out of your Ebony SV with a W/A lens and if so, what is the FL of your W/A lens?

There is a retailer in Monterey that carries both Linhof and Ebony. I hope to make a trip down there soon to have a look at those two.

Thanks all for the input thus far.

[Sheldon N]

The Arca Swiss is a fine camera but would it be all that much different than my current Sinar F2 in terms of weight and bulk? Sheldon mentions the telescoping rail, is the folding rail less desirable? Could I buy a used Arca Swiss with folding rail and replace it with the telescoping? Is this the older camera that you speak of Scott? http://photo.net/gc/view-one?classified_ad_id=695618 Sorry, I am not familiar with the Arca Swiss line.


The Arca Swiss folding rail is very good, but only allows about 260mm of extention. Add a 15cm or 25cm extension rail, and the combination becomes heavier, more complex to set up, and less sturdy than the 30cm telescoping rail. Check out the link to the thread I posted - it goes into pretty good detail.

Yes, you can swap out the folding and telescoping rails - that's what I did.

The Arca 110-141mm 4x5 Field (newer smaller rear standard size) is the one you want. The link you posted is for the 110-171mm size, which is larger and heavier as Scott mentioned.

The other downside of the 110-171mm 4x5 Field camera is that the leather bellows aren't long enough to handle more than ~250-275mm of extension. You need a second longer bellows in the 171mm back size. When they introduced the 141mm field, they made a new, longer leather bellows that could handle a wider range of lenses.

The Arca 110-141 Field with 30cm telescoping rail is roughly 6.2lbs, almost 2lbs lighter than the Sinar F2. Plus it uses smaller 110mm x 110mm lensboards, which could save more weight.

The Arca is definitely more compact than the Sinar F2. Think of it like a folded field camera with a rail on the base. I measure the camera on 15cm rail segment at 10.5 inches tall, 7.3 inches wide, and 6 inches thick at the base (rail). It's really more like 3.5 inches thick for the main body of the camera, just the rail extends at the bottom. I think that's several inches smaller in every dimension than the Sinar.

For perspective, the camera I had prior to the Arca was a 4x5 Wista wood field, and my pack holds both cameras in a similar space and manner.

Here's a couple snaps (soda can included for reference). Example front rise at about 70mm extension (could get more rise with indirect rise), example extension at maybe 350mm with indirect front rise.

[David Karp]

Another camera to consider is the Walker Titan SF. If you want a folder, it is well made, very rigid, has lots of movements, and offers a bag bellows for use with the 72. Mike Walker is a great guy.

[Jeffrey Sipress]

It really depends on what YOU consider a backpacking camera to be. Do you go on long trips tht require lots of other gear like tents and clothing? Personally, I don't consider the Arca to be a backpack camera, even though it is a wonderful camera. On long hikes (all day) and overnighters, I always take my Toho.

[Brian K]

Hi All,

My first post on this forum. I own a Sinar F2 and have used it for many years both in the studio and in the field. I have a large photo backpack and have even hiked some distance with it on my back. But I'm getting older and the last time I did this I was exhausted after a few miles of walking. So I decided it was time to pick up a more portable 4x5 camera for hiking.

I know that there a many cameras by many manufactures that fit the bill but I am looking for the following features:
1) Relatively compact and light weight.
2) Quick, easy setup.
3) Able to handle 72mm to 500mm (Nikon tele) lens range.
4) Must be capable of front rise with 72mm wide angle lens.

A salesperson recommended an Ebony SV series which can be ordered with a "universal" bellows, apparently the front pleat is relaxed to allow for movement even when the bellows is compressed. But I thought I would ask for recommendations on this forum before spending big $$$ on the Ebony.

A single bellows would be nice as it is less to carry but I would not rule out a camera that has a standard and bag bellows so long as they are easily fitted to the camera in the field.

TIA

I've used Canham DLC45 in the field( good camera, a little slow to set up though, and a little too light weight for a Zoom back) and a heavily modified Sinar F2 ( custom bellows-everything from 65mm to 720mm tele, shortened standards- so the the whole camera is shorter, and a customized 5" rail- so the camera can fit into a typical 6" deep camera case) and recently bought a Linhof MT 3000. I love the MT3000. It's small,very rigid, quick to set up, and can work with a 500mm tele nikkor.

I highly recommend the Linhof.

[John Kasaian]

The lightest, smallest 4x5s I know of are the Gowland, Toho, and Nagaoka if that is your main concern.

[Rakesh Malik]

Rakesh, are you able to get front rise out of your Ebony SV with a W/A lens and if so, what is the FL of your W/A lens?


My widest lens is an 80mm Super-Symmar XL. To use it, I end up tilting the front standard back, re-leveling it with axis tilt, and then raising it up a bit before focusing. If I remember to do all of that (it's much less work than it sounds), I can use enough movement to do what I want. I don't use front rise very often because I usually end up using back rise (I don't shoot much architecture, sorry), but I did end up needing a bit of front rise to adjust my composition once, and it did work out for me.

I'd advise trying it yourself, because you might find that the rise available after tilting the front standard back and re-centering it is no longer enough for your needs. Or it might be enough. :)

Just to note though, if I forget to tilt the front standard back, I can still use most of the movements, but I can't unlock the rear swing because the front standard ends up blocking the latches for rear swing.

[Ed Richards]

I have an F2 which I use in the field. I do not hike long distances, being somewhat in the Edward Weston school, but I do carry it a bit. I think you need to sort out the weight of your whole kit and figure out how much of that is the camera. The F2 is a bit bulky, but not that heavy. If your lenses, tripod, and the rest weigh 35#, reducing the camera weight by 2 or 3 pounds is not going to matter, and you might find that you are giving up some valuable function. This is why my Technika stays in the trunk unless I am using the rangefinder.

[fotogeek]

Thanks all for the great info. I have a lot to consider now.

The Toho is new to me. I found this extensive review of it which may be of interest to current and potential future owners. http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/toho.htm

[Eric Leppanen]

As far a quick set-up and teardown is concerned, an Ebony 45SU non-folder with universal bellows is hard to beat. It will focus the Nikkor 500T at infinity and support some rise with the 72mm, although to exploit the full image circle of the latter lens you'll need the optional bag bellows. I carry a Bogen 3252 long lens support arm (which I keep clamped to one leg of my tripod) whenever I plan on using long lenses with this camera; it is very light and takes care of any stability issues (I use it to support the front standard).