Which staining developer?

[Leonard Metcalf]

Hi,

I am thinking of changing to a staining developer. I mainly use HP5+, D76, Xtol, a combi plan tank, shoot 4x5 and scan for output (digital negs or as prints).

My main reasons are for a cheaper developer that can sit on my shelf for longer, and can give me a good negative that I may use for contact printing with an alternative process.

Recommendations?

Thanks Len

[Ken Lee]

Here we go...

[Peter Lewin]

If you've been following the various developer threads, there are a couple of widely used staining developers, and then probably many more not-so-widely-used. I've been using Gordon Hutching's PMK for something like 20 years, tray developing. Steve Simmons, the publisher of ViewCamera usually recommends it as well. The newer staining formula, developed initially for rotary processing, is the Pyrocat family, one formulation is for rotary processing, and the other for tray/intermittant agitation (since I don't use it, I get Pyrocat HD and MC confused). All are available pre-mixed from Photographer's Formulary (there may well be others, I only have experience with PF). Again, from personal experience, PMK seems to have an indefinite shelf life in component form (there are two stock mixtures which you mix just before using), and is very dilute, hence very economical (the two traits you mention). I believe the Pyrocat formulae work the same way, and have similar characteristics. The biggest difference between PMK and Pyrocat is the stain color; I'll leave it to a Pyrocat user to explain the difference the stain color makes for printing. In the PMK case, the greenish stain is essentially self-masking for highlights if you use VC papers.

[Gary L. Quay]

I have been using PMK Pyro for a couple years, but I recently tried the W2D2+ from PF, and it works fairly well. My negatives seem to be a tad sharper, but there's less stain.

My stain has been yellowish, not green as stated above. I'd be interested to know what accounts for the differences in stain color.

--Gary

[sanking]

I have been using PMK Pyro for a couple years, but I recently tried the W2D2+ from PF, and it works fairly well. My negatives seem to be a tad sharper, but there's less stain.

My stain has been yellowish, not green as stated above. I'd be interested to know what accounts for the differences in stain color.

--Gary

The exact color of the stain can vary a lot depending on film type and water quality. If there is any question about the quality of your tap water I advise mixing the working solution with purified water because both pyrogallol and pyrocatechin are highly sensitive to contaminants in the water. Bad water can cause elevated B+F levels and other problems such as mottling.

You may be able to get information about your local water supply by going to this site and following the links.
http://qualitywatertreatment.com/city_water_guide.htm

I personally use tap water for most applications because the water in my area (Greenville, SC) comes from protected mountain reservoirs and is very pure.

Sandy King

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

I have used AND tested PMK, WD2D, ABC and Pyrocat HD as well as other formulations I have come across in books. To me the most versatile, lasting and easiest to use is Pyrocat HD.

[steve simmons]

If you go to the View Camera web site

www.viewcamera.com

and then to the free articles section there is an article on staining developers which describes how and why they work.

I prefer the PMK. It has been around for 20+ years, has a long and very good track record, is very economical to use, and comes pre-mixed from Bostick and Sullivan and Photographers Formulary. Gordon Hutchings, who wrote The Book of Pyro, which you should read if you are unfamiliar with staining developers, has been involved in photography for 40+ years and has a chemistry background so he understands what the various chemicals do and how they interact.

Staining developers work especially well with films such as Tri-X, FP4+, HP5+. They make less of a difference with the T-Max films whose emulsion does not benefit from the stain as much as the other films.


steve simmons

[sanking]

My opinion, for whatever it is worth, is that TMAX films benefit from the stain as much as any of the other films mentioned, and I have both test data and real prints to support that view. I have tested and used TMAX-400 extensively for many years with staining developers and the results have been as good or better than with other films.

In addition to the work of Gordon Hutchings already mentioned I would also direct interested parties to my article on pyro staining developers at http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/PCat/pcat.html

Some of the specific data regarding film development is in need of revision due to recent changes in a number of emulsions, but by and large the article provides an interesting historical and technical introduction to staining developers.

Sandy King

[evan clarke]

Tmax 400 in the Pyrocat MC is just stunning and the prints really glow. I mix it in Glycol and it seems the stuff could last forever. Pyrocat may have changed my life. Thanks Sandy...Evan Clarke

[D. Bryant]

If you go to the View Camera web site

www.viewcamera.com

They make less of a difference with the T-Max films whose emulsion does not benefit from the stain as much as the other films.

steve simmons

My unscientific tests do not support that conclusion Steve. TMAX films stain very well, proportionately like traditional emulsions. I used PMK for years with TMAX and other films. I prefer Pyrocat-HD for the same reasons others have stated in similar threads.

Don Bryant

[Richard Wasserman]

I have used, but not formally tested PMK, WD2D+, and Pyrocat HD and have chosen Pyrocat as the best of the three for my purposes. They are all good, but somewhat different and those differences can be subtle. I'm glad I tried all of them.

[Don Hutton]

They make less of a difference with the T-Max films whose emulsion does not benefit from the stain as much as the other films.


steve simmonsNonsense.

[Robert Brummitt]

I also use PMK, Rollo pyro but my prefered developer is Wd2d+. I get some really nice negs with it. But, I think of what I'm photographing, the film I'm using, the lighting contrast and then decide which developer to us.
Example is if i'm working in soft light like Oregon cloud cover the its Wd2d+, If I have a harsher contrast then I go for PMK. Both of these are used for roll films and some sheets. The Rollo pyro is strickly for the jobo.
This last summer, I did a comparison of all three for a workshop. All gave great results. The Rollo had a stronger mask/stain followed by PMK and last was Wd2d+. All the films were Ilford HP5 and FP4. They all printed at different times according to the mask/stain.

[sanking]

Tmax 400 in the Pyrocat MC is just stunning and the prints really glow. I mix it in Glycol and it seems the stuff could last forever. Pyrocat may have changed my life. Thanks Sandy...Evan Clarke

Evan,

Thank you.

It is very gratifying to read such a positive testimonial.

Sandy

[chilihead]

Thanks Don- I am waiting to try the new 4x5 100/400 tmax coming soon from Kodak, in Rollo Pyro in a Jobo - P

[Leonard Metcalf]

Thanks for the replies. I was particularly worried about using it in a daylight tank. I don't have a darkroom at home, and am left to process in the kitchen with my combi plan. Does PMK work ok in a daylight tank. I understand that Pyrocat goes well with this combination, but have read that its shelf life is only one year.

Thanks,

Len

[sanking]

Thanks for the replies. I was particularly worried about using it in a daylight tank. I don't have a darkroom at home, and am left to process in the kitchen with my combi plan. Does PMK work ok in a daylight tank. I understand that Pyrocat goes well with this combination, but have read that its shelf life is only one year.

Thanks,

Len

Len,

The shelf life of Pyrocat-HD mixed in water is about a year. However, Formulary has been supplying Part A mixed in glycol for a couple of years, and mixed in glycol the shelf life is pretty much indefinite. I have some on hand mixed in glycol over three years ago and it still works fine.

Sandy King

[Jim Rice]

Another vote for Pyrocat HD. I use it with FP-4+ in 8x10 in a Unicolor drum and it just works.

[Yong-ran Zhu]

I have used Pyrocat HD bought from the PF for almost 6 months with FP4+ sheet film. I got very good results and stopped using Xtol, which I used for many years. Once I saw Evan used tmax 400 with Pyrocat MC, then I tried Pyrocat HD with Tmax 400. It gave me so good negatives which I never had before. I showed one testing picture to Evan, which was made in a sunny afternoon. The sun came from windows and direct projected on my dinning table. The table cloth was white and some white silky texture. The light range of the image was Zone 3 to Zone 9 and a half. The image was printed on the Ilford warmtone FB paper. It shows highlight part with all the details. My view is that Tmax 400 with Pyrocat HD or MC is wonderful combination. Thanks Sandy!
Yong-ran Zhu

[Shen45]

Len,

The shelf life of Pyrocat-HD mixed in water is about a year. However, Formulary has been supplying Part A mixed in glycol for a couple of years, and mixed in glycol the shelf life is pretty much indefinite. I have some on hand mixed in glycol over three years ago and it still works fine.

Sandy King

Sandy or anyone else, do you have any idea on the shelf life of PMK part "A" mixed as the concentrate stock solution using distilled water. -- In other words not mixed for use which is rather short I believe. Also the same info for part "B" ??

[Peter Lewin]

Sandy or anyone else, do you have any idea on the shelf life of PMK part "A" mixed as the concentrate stock solution using distilled water. -- In other words not mixed for use which is rather short I believe. Also the same info for part "B" ??
I've just finished a batch of (stock) PMK (purchased in liquid form from Photographers Formulary) which has lasted a minimum of 5 years (I had four years when I did no photography, then re-started, and was happy to discover that the PMK still worked fine). I really think the two stock solutions have very close to "indefinite" shelf life.

[sanking]

Sandy or anyone else, do you have any idea on the shelf life of PMK part "A" mixed as the concentrate stock solution using distilled water. -- In other words not mixed for use which is rather short I believe. Also the same info for part "B" ??

Unless you contaminate the stock solutions the shelf life of PMK mixed in distilled water is several years.

To avoid contamination use different measuring beakers or syringes for the two stock solutions, and never allow part of A to get into B, or vice-versa. This applies to all other two part staining developers such as Pyrocat, Rollo Pyro and WD2D.

Sandy King