Ilford/Harman Acquires Kentmere

[steve simmons]

FYI from Steve Simmons


UNITED KINGDOM: HARMAN technology Limited, the company behind ILFORD
PHOTO and HARMAN PHOTO, has announced the addition of Kentmere
Photographic Limited to its business. The move, which comes following
a period of extensive negotiations, is being welcomed as a good thing
for the brands involved as well as for the wider photographic community.

[John Kasaian]

An interesting development (pun intended!) It should certainly strengthen Harman Technology Ltd.'s position in traditional photography. Something thats been a concen is that apparently Harman acquired Ilford but not title to the production facility's real estate. If Kentmere comes with the land then Ilford may have a home for production when that lease runs out, as well as a passel of great photo papers!
Thanks, Steve!

[David Karp]

I wonder what this means for Freestyle's agreements with Kentmere to rebrand their products as Arista. I hope Ilford does not kill Kentmere products like their MC FB paper. It is different than Ilford and very nice.

[David Karp]

Well, here is an answer to one of my questions, for now anyway:

"Following the buy-out, HARMAN is keen to stress that the Kentmere brand will remain relatively unchanged. It will continue to offer the same resin coated and fibre based monochrome papers and inkjet products, including Opaljet, whilst employing the same marketing approach."

This from Ilford's press release.

[Pete Watkins]

I see this as really bad news. We've lost Document Art (probably for ever now) and I can't see a pack of gold diggers like Harman continuing to produce POP. A sad day!
Pete.

[Turner Reich]

Crap, up goes the prices, sure the product might remain unchanged but sure enough some excuse or any excuse to up the price is most likely in the works. Sad, very sad.

[Jan Pedersen]

I see this as really bad news. We've lost Document Art (probably for ever now) and I can't see a pack of gold diggers like Harman continuing to produce POP. A sad day!

Neither Ilford nor Kentmere is making POP paper as far as i know. I wish they did

[Oren Grad]

Neither Ilford nor Kentmere is making POP paper as far as i know. I wish they did

I think Kentmere still manufactures Centennial POP, distributed in the US by Chicago Albumen Works.

[Pete Watkins]

Kentmere DO make POP as far as I know. I understand that due to certain problems it's not made all year round, but they make it.
Pete.

[David A. Goldfarb]

Did we lose Document Art because of a decision on Kentmere's part or because of the availability of the paper base? I know that Charcoal R was discontinued because the paper base became unavailable, and this happened with some of the other special surface papers they were making.

[Jan Pedersen]

My bad. Wasn't aware that Centennial was made by Kentmere.
Simon Galley did over on the APUG forum state that there would be no change to the current product line but time will tell i guess.

[Pete Watkins]

Simon Galley wouldn't even answer my e-mails when I offered to drive to the factory to collect some 11x14 sheet film so his opinions are best disregarded. We have a word to describe people with such attitudes in England, but I'm far too polite to use it. Document Art was discontinued due to problems obtaining the correct paperbase BUT Kentmere were looking for a replacement, I doubt Harman Technologies will bother. I understand that a similar paper is available from eastern Europe, has anybody tried this stuff?
Best wishes,
Pete.

[Toyon]

This could be good. Maybe Ilford will eliminate the edge fogging characteristics of some of the Kentmere papers.

[jwaddison]

Simon Galley wouldn't even answer my e-mails when I offered to drive to the factory to collect some 11x14 sheet film so his opinions are best disregarded. We have a word to describe people with such attitudes in England, but I'm far too polite to use it. Document Art was discontinued due to problems obtaining the correct paperbase BUT Kentmere were looking for a replacement, I doubt Harman Technologies will bother. I understand that a similar paper is available from eastern Europe, has anybody tried this stuff?
Best wishes,
Pete.

To me this sounds quite unfair. You weren't doing Ilford a favour by offering to pick it up at the factory. I doubt they normally do factory sales, so someone would have to pluck it out of a production line and deliver it to the front desk. And just because you have an unanswered email doesn't mean his opinions should be disregarded.

[Colin Robertson]

Pete, with all respect, you better get your head round the fact that if you want to be shooting film in ten years time you better pray Ilford/kentmere make it.
Kodak? B&W paper gone, film will go as soon as the motion picture industry move to digital.
Fuji- god bless them, but they major in colour, and and they're unlikely at this late stage in the game to begin expanding their B&W range. Who else? Foma, Rollei, Slavich, Lucky? Right now Ilford are it. A full range of film from 50 to 3200 ASA, traditional and T-grain. Papers, RC and FB, graded and multigrade, in a variety of tones and surfaces. Chemistry, including a new toner, reintroduced SFX200 to please the public. Involved in ULF film. Promoting silver photography actively. Right now, Ilford come about as close to one-stop-shopping for traditional B&W photography as we'll ever get. No, they don't make Alt process kits like Fotospeed, but do you buy those?
Just what more is it you want from them? Simon Galley to come round your house and wash your car for you???

PS My favourite paper of all time? Kodak Royal Bromesko. Now, where did that go?
My favourite Colour film? Kodachrome 25. Now, where did that go?

[evan clarke]

In 10 years, the majority of active photographers will no longer have any link to film based photography. Ilford needs to pay the rent, the employees, the shareholders and the taxes. As the market shrinks and film fades into the past, prices need to spiral upwards for this product to exist. Ilford equipment has the capacity to coat MILLIONS of square yards of product and needs to run continuously once started, the purchase of a couple boxes of film has no impact on their sales picture...Evan Clarke

[Colin Robertson]

Hi Evan. Not sure exactly what you're saying. Should all film manufacturers quit today, because of what things will/might be like in the future? Perhaps I personaly don't buy hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of materials each year, but I spend steadily and regularly. I'm guessing that I'm not yet alone.
What I can forsee is Ilford (who apparently don't own their current premises )downsizing at some point. Just possibly that's why their aquiring Kentmere now- as a future fall back location.
Is the market shrinking? Of course it is. In another thread I myself pointed out that the loss of new, affordable film cameras is a disaster for film manufacturers. However, with seven billion human beings on the earth, just possibly there will be enough business to support some kind of silver halide industry. Even if, in the end, it is a tiny market, the only way to be last man standing is to stay in business now. From what I see, Ilford certainly intends to try being there for the end game.
Me? I'm still shooting Pan F 120, 5x4 FP4, and 35 mm HP5 every chance I get.
Gotta go, got a bundle of 20x16 prints (Ilford FB warm-tone) washing.
Cheers, and good shooting Evan.

[scott_6029]

Combine marketing, distribution, sales, acctg, overhead, etc...good for the industry I would think...should serve to preserve it.

[Oren Grad]

In 10 years, the majority of active photographers will no longer have any link to film based photography. Ilford needs to pay the rent, the employees, the shareholders and the taxes. As the market shrinks and film fades into the past, prices need to spiral upwards for this product to exist. Ilford equipment has the capacity to coat MILLIONS of square yards of product and needs to run continuously once started, the purchase of a couple boxes of film has no impact on their sales picture...

The equipment at the Mobberley factory is actually well-suited to manufacturing in batch mode, and that is how it's used. This may have been a competitive disadvantage 15 years ago, but it's a good match to today's market, which demands smaller quantities of a range of products.

Also, Harman's new inkjet papers take advantage of the existing infrastructure to serve a new, growing market, and thereby preserve the economic viability of that infrastructure even as the market for traditional silver products continues to shrink. Wish them success in this new venture.

And a PS, to address the earlier point: Harman is not equipped to conduct retail sales in Mobberley. There is no retail storefront. The accounting and materials handling systems in the warehouse are set up to process orders from dealer and distributor accounts and pick and deliver product, packaged for shipping, to a truck loading dock. Just receiving a visitor requires somebody to drop what he's doing and escort the visitor for as long as he's on the factory grounds, which is costly in itself.

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

To me this sounds quite unfair. You weren't doing Ilford a favour by offering to pick it up at the factory. I doubt they normally do factory sales, so someone would have to pluck it out of a production line and deliver it to the front desk. And just because you have an unanswered email doesn't mean his opinions should be disregarded.

Right on!

[SamReeves]

This could be good. Maybe Ilford will eliminate the edge fogging characteristics of some of the Kentmere papers.

Agreed. And perhaps give it a boost of contrast. Though we'll have to pay Ilford prices now. :(

[evan clarke]

Hi Evan. Not sure exactly what you're saying. Should all film manufacturers quit today, because of what things will/might be like in the future? Perhaps I personaly don't buy hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of materials each year, but I spend steadily and regularly. I'm guessing that I'm not yet alone.
What I can forsee is Ilford (who apparently don't own their current premises )downsizing at some point. Just possibly that's why their aquiring Kentmere now- as a future fall back location.
Is the market shrinking? Of course it is. In another thread I myself pointed out that the loss of new, affordable film cameras is a disaster for film manufacturers. However, with seven billion human beings on the earth, just possibly there will be enough business to support some kind of silver halide industry. Even if, in the end, it is a tiny market, the only way to be last man standing is to stay in business now. From what I see, Ilford certainly intends to try being there for the end game.
Me? I'm still shooting Pan F 120, 5x4 FP4, and 35 mm HP5 every chance I get.
Gotta go, got a bundle of 20x16 prints (Ilford FB warm-tone) washing.
Cheers, and good shooting Evan.

Hi Colin,
I'm sorry, I may not have expressed it well (I am aging ungracefully). We photographers are in a time of transition, film to digital. I think a majority of those who have interest in this forum started with film and have some ties to it. The 10 year-olds are now starting with digital media and will always accept that medium as their anchor.
In 10 years we may be fortunate to buy film at any price and will probably be very happy if there is one company manufacturing it, definitely not upset over an acquisition like the one discussed in this thread. I hope I am wrong because I will use film until I die or can't get any more.
Oren, I know that Ilford are much more efficent in their coating operation than they used to be and I am sure you have seen the lines. Coating machines are fairly intricate and when combined with emulsion chemistry require a fair amount of finesse to keep happy. I get the feeling that the forum viewers believe that one can go to "Coating Machines R Us" and bring one home in a pickup truck. My brother in law was technical services director at Ansco/Gaf, actually while they owned Ilford, and I got to see their coating machine in operation on a number of occasions. The entire line was several stories high and blocks in length..to build one of these machines that works is a good accomplishment....Evan Clarke

[Oren Grad]

Oren, I know that Ilford are much more efficent in their coating operation than they used to be and I am sure you have seen the lines. Coating machines are fairly intricate and when combined with emulsion chemistry require a fair amount of finesse to keep happy. I get the feeling that the forum viewers believe that one can go to "Coating Machines R Us" and bring one home in a pickup truck. My brother in law was technical services director at Ansco/Gaf, actually while they owned Ilford, and I got to see their coating machine in operation on a number of occasions. The entire line was several stories high and blocks in length..to build one of these machines that works is a good accomplishment....Evan Clarke

Yes. They have two coating lines, a very small one that's primarily for R&D and the main production line, which is a city block long and a wonder to behold. Amazingly, they do manage to run all the different varieties of film and paper - all the different emulsions and bases - on that one coating line. It is indeed a very impressive accomplishment, and requires an enormous amount of experience to pull off - it's not something you can read out of a cookbook and get right. The experience, skill and judgment of the engineers and technicians who have been running the line for years are a critical part of the value that Harman/Ilford provides to the market and would be difficult or impossible to duplicate. As Ron Mowrey has pointed out elsewhere, the tacit knowledge in the heads of these people is a precious resource that's depeleting steadily as the market shrinks, people retire, and new resources and new hires are focused elsewhere.

The finishing equipment is much smaller scale, and very well-suited to batch mode production.

[davidb]

So Ilford, excuse me, Harman, now owns Ilford, Kentmere and Forte ?

[Pete Watkins]

Harman owns Forte? I missed that bit of news.
As I've said before on this forum I'm prepared to put all my faith in the East, Europe or Asia.
Going back a few posts, I offered to go to the Ilford factory and collect some 11x14 film because they were marketing this size in the U.S. BUT not in the U.K. where the stuff is made. Yeah, things have changed, they claim that 11x14 is now available in this country but as I've lost interest in Harmans products I can't be bothered to find a retail outlet. Just to get the facts right not only one e-mail was ignored.
I'll try coating my own plates/filmbase before I go digital, but I firmly believe that film, especially B & W film, has a future. This is a shrinking world thanks to the Internet and if the stuff ends up being available only from China (or wherever) it won't be a problem, will it? If some of you are prepared to order a camera from Chinese manufacturers where's the problem in ordering a box or two of film?
Pete.

[Oren Grad]

So Ilford, excuse me, Harman, now owns Ilford, Kentmere and Forte ?

Harman owns Ilford (silver halide product lines) and Kentmere. Forte is out of business. Bergger used to sell product manufactured by Forte. Now they will have product manufactured for them by Harman. Nobody on the outside knows yet whether the products manufactured by Harman under contract for Bergger will use the old Forte formulas or not.

[Michael Alpert]

I've lost interest in Harmans products I can't be bothered to find a retail outlet. . . . If some of you are prepared to order a camera from Chinese manufacturers where's the problem in ordering a box or two of film?
Pete.

Pete, you are Angry. If you emailed me with this kind of attitude (please don't) I'd ignore you too.

The fact is that no one will ever again become rich making silver-based products; I hope that people with an interest in traditional photography will own and manage companies that are profitable enough to keep going. And I hope that Ilford and Kentmere products survive. If that means that the prices of reliable paper and film need to go up by a reasonable amount, so be it.

Steve, thank you for keeping the forum informed.

[Pete Watkins]

Thanks for the explanation Oren. I didn't know that Bergger was made by Forte.
Michael, don't worry, I got over it months ago.
Pete.

[Peter Lewin]

Just back from PhotoExpo; the Harman rep was happy to let me know that they are actually seeing an increase in film sales, rather than the decrease most of us probably expect (as most of you may know, Harman Technologies is now the producer of Ilford's "wet darkroom" film, paper, and chemistry, while Ilford produces the digital paper). Perhaps things aren't quite as gloomy as we make out. (Granted, he didn't explicitly mention paper, but at least outwardly the people both at Harman, and over at the FS Distribution/Kentmere booth) seemed upbeat.

[Steve Kefford]

....they are actually seeing an increase in film sales, rather than the decrease most of us probably expect ....

I don't know why, but there are too many people assuming (without reason) that it is only a matter of time before film based photography is no more. This is often based on some alarmist figures, such as the reduction in sales of new film cameras and something else. They make the assumption that because nobody is buying new film cameras, nobody is using film, which is nonsense. Don't forget, "assume" makes an "ass "out of "u" and "me".

Whilst people are entitled to their own opinions, too many people expressing this as fact can create a self-fulfilling prophecy. I.e. the more it is written, the more people read it, and use digital instead, so reducing the viability of the market. This I see as the biggest danger to film based photography, an own goal if you like.

Whilst some sectors of the film based market have declined very rapidly, some are holding there own, and it is clear that Harman/Ilford are confident that there is a good future ahead. Just lets hope enough photographers do as well.

Steve

[tim atherton]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Lewin
....they are actually seeing an increase in film sales, rather than the decrease most of us probably expect ....



I don't know why, but there are too many people assuming (without reason) that it is only a matter of time before film based photography is no more. This is often based on some alarmist figures, such as the reduction in sales of new film cameras and something else. They make the assumption that because nobody is buying new film cameras, nobody is using film, which is nonsense. Don't forget, "assume" makes an "ass "out of "u" and "me".


Interesting assumption though not necessarily correct

Another take on it would be that considering Agfa and Forte/Bergger (have I missed any?) are recently gone from the B&W business and Kodak seems to have managed to piss off a lot of film customers, combined with Ilford's concerted push to capture a bigger share of the b&w market, it's not that surprising Ilford's share of the pie has increased?

It could be an overall increase in film sales figures. It could just be Ilford is getting a bigger share of the customers

[David Karp]

A well known manufacturer of LF cameras recently told me that he has information from Kodak, Ilford and Fuji that their sheet film sales have steadily increased for several quarters.

[Gene McCluney]

Interesting assumption though not necessarily correct

Another take on it would be that considering Agfa and Forte/Bergger (have I missed any?) are recently gone from the B&W business
It could be an overall increase in film sales figures. It could just be Ilford is getting a bigger share of the customers

Bergger is not out of the photo paper and film business. They just lost their contract manufacturer. They have now picked Harman to make their products.

[Michael Alpert]

"If you emailed me with this kind of attitude (please don't) I'd ignore you too."

Not answering shows he is not interested in telling this disgruntled customer (former or prospective) that his company can take care of his needs. That is the Kodak attitude. A shame if it is infecting Ilford as well.

Now if they will bring back 8x10 Delta 400 it would be nice. Also let PhotoWarehouse custom cut odd film sizes that some of us use and Ilford doesn't seem to want to supply.

Dakotah,

You and I do not know what was written to Ilford. If someone writes with a simple question, then of course the inquiry should be answered. If the message is inflammatory, then silence may be best. (I apologize for stating the obvious.)

After speaking recently with people at Kodak, it seems that even Kodak is changing to a friendlier culture (at least that is my experience). I am sure that the owners of Ilford are not trying to alienate anyone. The Internet is filled with accounts of idiosyncratic experiences. So wrong impressions proliferate. That was the motivation to my initial response. But this is, at best, a side issue. The important point is that Ilford is committed to making film and silver paper.

Odd sizes are, well, odd. It may be economically impossible for Ilford to do what you want.

[Steve Kefford]

Interesting assumption though not necessarily correct

Sorry, what assumption do you mean? My meaning ws that the reduction of the sales of new film based cameras does not prove the idea that film based photography is about to dissapear. Some people do use this as proof, which is incorrect. However, it could still be the case that it is, but this does not prove it, or even suggest it. This is not an assumption.



...Another take on it would be that considering Agfa and Forte/Bergger (have I missed any?) are recently gone from the B&W business and Kodak seems to have managed to piss off a lot of film customers, combined with Ilford's concerted push to capture a bigger share of the b&w market, it's not that surprising Ilford's share of the pie has increased?

It could be an overall increase in film sales figures. It could just be Ilford is getting a bigger share of the customers

It could be, but considering the small (?) market share that suppliers that have gone out of business, and that the impact of their demise might not yet be fully felt on market share, it might not be.

Besides, if it is just Harman increasing market share due to the demise of these companies, then that indicates that the market size is not diminishing. Companies go out of business for many reasons, not just dissaperance of a market. Unfortunatley, there appears to be a trend whereby profit is not the sucess indicator that it was. Growth appears to be more important.

Anyway, my main point was that the demise of film based photography is not the foregone conclusion that a lot of people are making it out to be.

Steve

[Gene McCluney]

With each closure of a film/paper manufacturer, the remaining manufacturers will experience an upturn in business. If this peaks, levels off, and then slowly declines, then one can assume that film is still sinking, however if the level of sales remains stable after the upturn, then one can assume that film is "holding its own". If sales continue to grow at some length (not tied to a closure), then it is great for all of us.