graduated ND filter vs. darkroom manipulation

[Seymour]

I shoot 8x10 color negative and my two lenses are 210mm and 300mm and both have a 105mm front diameter; in order to avoid vignetting when using movements and a 2 stop graduated ND filter I would probably need a custom rectangular filter such as one by Singh ray that costs over $300 and is 130mm x 170mm. Is there a less expensive alternative, and could dodging in the darkroom achieve the same results...I print up to 30"x40" using an optical enlarger and RA4 processing.

[Brian Ellis]

Trying to fix vignetting in the darkroom by dodging is very difficult with b&w film and more difficult with color. The problem with b&w is getting the blend from the vignetted area into the non-vignetted area to look right. That's hard to do because the dodged area has to be the exact same tone as the non-dodged area and it isn't easy to do that without leaving an obvious line or gradual separation between the two areas. That's especially true when the area in question is a single tone such as a sky. With color you have that problem plus the coloar balance problem that almost always exists when you try to dodge (or burn) in color. Maybe someone else can suggest a dodging technique I never learned but I was a pretty good darkroom worker and I found it impossible to eliminate vignetting by dodging and have it look right.

Sorry I can't help with the filter question, I've heard of six inch ND filters but I don't know where to buy them or what they cost.

[Seymour]

thanks for your thoughts, but I was asking if it is practical to correct the light/dark imbalance in a negative in the darkroom if one does not use a graduated ND filter in the field, not the vignetting that would occur if a filter of insufficient size is used

[Eric Leppanen]

I think a better alternative might be to use a Lee 130x170mm ND grad, which would be considerably less expensive than the Singh-Ray:

http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/lee.htm#LabelLeeGradsCXP

[John Berry]

The ND's are well worth the cost. I use the lee's.

[Bruce Watson]

I shoot 8x10 color negative and my two lenses are 210mm and 300mm and both have a 105mm front diameter; in order to avoid vignetting when using movements and a 2 stop graduated ND filter I would probably need a custom rectangular filter such as one by Singh ray that costs over $300 and is 130mm x 170mm. Is there a less expensive alternative, and could dodging in the darkroom achieve the same results...I print up to 30"x40" using an optical enlarger and RA4 processing.

As to a less expensive alternative, I'm don't know of one. Sorry.

But just my $0.02 USD. It's always better to make a good negative than it is to try to fix it in post (darkroom or scanning either one). You'll spend a lot of time and effort (and lots of test prints) trying to get it right. On occasion you might even equal what you could have done with a negative that didn't require all that work. But in my experience that would be the exception, not the rule.

[Caroline Matthews]

Trying to fix vignetting in the darkroom by dodging is very difficult with b&w film and more difficult with color. The problem with b&w is getting the blend from the vignetted area into the non-vignetted area to look right. That's hard to do because the dodged area has to be the exact same tone as the non-dodged area and it isn't easy to do that without leaving an obvious line or gradual separation between the two areas. That's especially true when the area in question is a single tone such as a sky. With color you have that problem plus the coloar balance problem that almost always exists when you try to dodge (or burn) in color. Maybe someone else can suggest a dodging technique I never learned but I was a pretty good darkroom worker and I found it impossible to eliminate vignetting by dodging and have it look right.

Sorry I can't help with the filter question, I've heard of six inch ND filters but I don't know where to buy them or what they cost.

Brian, You need to start reading these posts before responding (see also: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=29595).

Cheers!

[Mick Fagan]

Seymour, it is feasible to do it in the darkroom, the success rate is usually quite reasonable, although I wouldn't say you should do it often, however more practice makes it easier and repeatable.

This afternoon I printed a 4x5 colour neg and had to burn in a section close to 2 1/2 stops, white painted building with one wall in full sunlight. I had no discernable colour shift in the wall or the surrounding vegetation which also copped some extra exposure.

People often talk about colour shifting with increased or decreased darkroom exposures. This does happen, but realistically I find if the range of exposure change is less than 4 stops, then any colour shift is minimal, so minimal for normal purposes, it doesn't matter.

However if this is a commercial application and colour accuracy is paramount, then about 3 stops is about it.

Burning, dodging etcetera in colour, is roughly the same as B&W as far as density goes. If you have accurate colour balance, then you should be alright, at least that is my experience.

I have a shot in my darkroom on the wall it is an 8x10" colour picture of a huge crowd at a race meeting, I burnt the clouds and sky in, to the tune of 4 1/2 stops, there is not even a hint of colour balance being incorrect in the clouds.

Mick.

[Seymour]

I appreciate the info, and was surprised to learn custom 130x170mm filters can be ordered from Robert White UK; when I spoke to Lee USA about a year ago this option was not offered. Since I will be leaving Oct. 24 for Zion/Bryce/Capitol Reef have no time to order this oversized filter... heard it would be usefull for the shadows which can be a problem in Zion. If the scene is outstanding and high contrast present might be worthwhile to attempt dodging in the darkroom as suggested, although you can imagine the logistics involved when doing this on a 30"x40" print

[Donald Miller]

You might try making up a graduated printing mask from a separate piece of 8X10 black and white film. If I were doing this I would use an inexpensive film like APHS. Once made, this mask would be printed in combination with your color film.

It may take a few attempts but you should be able to come up with anything from 1/2 stop to higher densities in the mask....the basis for the mask could be a smaller graduated ND filter projected onto the baseboard and the previously unexposed black and white film.

[Eric Leppanen]

The new generation of "2 electron sensitization" Portra films claim to have enhanced exposure latitude, so they might be worth checking into prior to your trip. Ctein evaluated them versus their Fuji counterparts in the May-June 2007 issue of Photo Techniques magazine, but I don't remember his conclusions regarding latitude. When I shot Zion last fall I could barely hold the highlights and deep canyon shadows by overexposing Pro 160S by three stops, but it was a real stretch and I'm not that picky about color accuracy.

[Brian Ellis]

Brian, You need to start reading these posts before responding (see also: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=29595).

Cheers!

Gee Caroline, did my post waste your precious time? If so I truly am sorry and I do apologize for thinking that when the OP asked about avoiding vignetting and achieving the same effect in the darkroom he was asking about dealing with vignetting in the darkroom. Your own responses here certainly have been most thoughful and reflect the careful reading you give to the questions that generated them. Here are a few of your recent responses to varous questions:

"Why Can't People Spell On This Forum? Idiots!!!"

"You are such a twinky gadfly"

"Why are you asking a question about ebay here? Should you not go to ebay? This is most inappropriate."

"What a foolish way to treat an expensive piece of equipment. I hope you thoroughly cleaned that tent. The human body is the single bigest source of dust."

"Threads that complain about other threads."

"Stores about buying gear do not count. There is no 'adventure' there."

"See"

"Maybe he's dead."

"Especially me"

"Your garden looks very nice too."

"If it's anything like Chinese toothpaste, fish, etc. I would stay away."

"Loch Ness monster?"

And on and on in that general vein. In fact all but a small handful of the 72 messages you've managed to post in the six years since you joined consist of a few words criticizing other people or cutesy nonsensensical one-liners which I guess you think are clever but which are of no use to anyone.

Cheers!

[Pete Roody]

Cokin X-Pro filters are 130mmx170mm and they have nd's. They sell for $77usd at B&H.