PDA

View Full Version : The "Old Man's Camera"



Bruce Barlow
8-Oct-2007, 09:41
Just held the bed and rail system of Richard Ritter's 4x5/5x7/8x10 camera system. It weighs 8 ounces. Aircraft aluminum and carbon fiber. It will use a single front standard, with interchangeable backs+bellows (as with his ULF system) to go from 4x5 to 5x7 to 8x10, maybe bigger.

Hmm. Other backs+bellows in one cooler bag, an assortment of holders in a second cooler bag, and the whole 3-format kit less than, oh, fifteen pounds at the most? An 8x10 camera weighing, oh, four pounds? Richard extends the rail system and stands on it, so it's strong and stable (but he is skinny, I don't think I'll try it).

It's the camera for my advanced age. Richard says he should have a prototype by Thanksgiving, and hasn't figured out any pricing yet. He's waiting for bellows to arrive from England, and has a few more tweaks he wants to do. I suspect I'll have to fight John Bowen for serial number 1...:)

Hey Richard, did you want me to post this?:eek: I didn't ask.

Can mine use Sinar lensboards, please?

Rob_5419
8-Oct-2007, 09:54
8 ounces.... 8x 50g = 400grams.

Wow! That's incredible!

Or is that my ailing maths in my own senescence?
:confused:

Nick_3536
8-Oct-2007, 10:08
Bad math. It's about 227 grams.

Rob_5419
8-Oct-2007, 10:11
Yes....I was wondering how many ounces in a gram or vice versa.

Age ;)

227gram - even more incredible! That's the same weight as a few chocolate bars to hike on!

Bruce Watson
8-Oct-2007, 10:12
8 ounces.... 8x 50g = 400grams.

Wow! That's incredible!

Or is that my ailing maths in my own senescence?
:confused:

I think you're a tad high. I make that 0.227 KG. But that's just the bed. It'll be interesting to see what goes with this system. I personally would love to see a 4x10 option (to use Canham film holders). And yes, I do need to be able to make vertical panos with it.

George Hart
8-Oct-2007, 10:24
Is this thread about wind?? If I remember correctly, acceleration = force ÷ mass, so the lighter your camera, the faster it falls to the ground…

Rob_5419
8-Oct-2007, 10:30
That's another interesting take George.

Being retired, I do pay attention to the weight of gear. My own hiking camera is a whole plate field camera and with bookform plate holders, I would describe it as being manageable for those of us who don't have ADHD and are over 55.

A novel lightweight solution is always a welcome alternative.

Bruce Barlow
8-Oct-2007, 12:21
Is this thread about wind?? If I remember correctly, acceleration = force ÷ mass, so the lighter your camera, the faster it falls to the ground…

See the opening of the DVD "Camera Repair in the Field with Richard Ritter."

Cameras fall more often when you set the mainsail with your darkcloth over the camera, although the sail might let you reach a lower terminal velocity.

By the way, Richard, I'm sure, would make a 4x10 back for this rail system if asked.

Steve Goldstein
8-Oct-2007, 16:18
How about a whole-plate back? I suppose it would be smarter to ask Richard directly rather resort to than idle speculation, but the latter is so much fun.

davidb
8-Oct-2007, 16:35
So when do we get to see this camera?

ericantonio
8-Oct-2007, 19:57
This thread is useless without any pix! :)
Want pix now!

Bruce Barlow
9-Oct-2007, 04:00
This thread is useless without any pix! :)
Want pix now!

It's a little hard to post oix of something that has yet to be assembled. Reread my first post: no bellows delivered yet (by the way, bellows are the single costliest item in the camera by far). We can all aggressively wait for the mail to arrive.

For an idea about looks, visit Richard's web site and look carefully at the ULF pictures. To see how it would work, get the ULF Owner's Manual DVD for the ridiculously cheap price of $15 including postage. The design principles are the same, with carbon fiber tubing as the rails, secured to an aircraft aluminum bed, with carbon fiber uprights and a mahogany back and lens frame. Imagine it smaller, but looking very similar. Chances are you'll never be asked if it's an antique!

You think you want pictures? I want to play with the prototype! If you're nice to me I'll try to take some digits of the bed and rails when I'm over at his house on Thursday. Not completely satisfying, but it's something. Maybe I'll take our scale and weigh it for the picture. I'll also pry out some specs like bellows draw, except that's a little misleading, because Richard can cut the carbon fiber tubing to give you just about any draw you ask for.

More later. Should I start a new thread when I have pix or add to this one?

Oh, yeah, and Richard laughed at me for doing this one! He's a good sport.

RichardRitter
9-Oct-2007, 05:46
I guess BRUCE though I needed a good kick in the seat of my pants to get going on with the project. I don't need it every time I go out with the 8 x 10 I keep thinking there is a very light weight prototype sitting in the office needing to be finished so I can go out photographing with a much lighter camera.

Bellows what length do you want. This camera being what it is is very easy to customize. Standard rail length will be around 28, 32, 36, 40 inches.
Back sizes 4 x5, 4 x 10, 5 x 7, 5 x 8, 5 x 12, full plate, 7 x 11, 8 x 10. Did I miss any. Want an odd size just supply a film holder and it can be made to it.

Pricing will be announced latter this year need to go and field test the camera first. I can hear it screaming now "oh no http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif
:eek: I'm not going out with Richard first he drags us down a steep rocky bank then he drowns us after that he beats us against a tree to dry us out then goes back to tries and do it again".

Bruce Barlow
9-Oct-2007, 09:24
I was wondering if Richard would chime in... Actually, I did this thread because I was amazed at how light the bed and rails were, and it's fun to do a little promotion on Richard's behalf.

You go, guy! An ultra-light-weight, flexible-format camera produced in the US by a capable, reliable craftsman who'll stand behind it sounds good to me.

Richard, I'll bring a loaf of home-baked bread Thursday instead of the usual brownies. But I can't think of any work I need to barter it for...

John Bowen
9-Oct-2007, 09:28
I suspect I'll have to fight John Bowen for serial number 1...:)



Damn! So serial number 1 is spoken for... Well, since this is an "old man's camera" and since I've yet to earn my AARP card, I guess I won't fight Bruce too hard for #1. :D

But Richard better save serial #2 for the "youngster".

Richard, let me know when pricing and ordering info are available.

Oh, and Bruce is right about the video manual for Richard's ULF camera. I would highly recommend you spend the $15 and view this DVD prior to purchasing ANY ulf camera. You will be amazed by the versatility of Richard's cameras.

Bruce Barlow
9-Oct-2007, 14:41
[QUOTE=John Bowen;280842]Damn! So serial number 1 is spoken for... Well, since this is an "old man's camera" and since I've yet to earn my AARP card, I guess I won't fight Bruce too hard for #1. :D

Good. Hate to have to put my teeth in and bite you.

John Bowen
9-Oct-2007, 18:07
Good. Hate to have to put my teeth in and bite you.

LOL

I'm not sure which announcement is more exciting New TMY or Richard's new cameras. The both sound like winners.

Asher Kelman
10-Oct-2007, 10:17
This is exciting. We are getting a brace of new opportunities for LF and ULF. In this case, I especially like the idea of getting a camera back and bellows and rail length to suit the film holder of choice! This must mean the lightest camera for one's needs and no adapter hassles.

What impresses me in these developments is the close relationship to design and photography. Now where would one hold the Chamonix-Ritter ULF shootout?

Asher

"Journeys To The Masterpiece" (http://www.openphotographyforums)

davidb
10-Oct-2007, 10:19
Let's do it in New Mexico....

Bruce Barlow
10-Oct-2007, 10:35
I don't want to travel. We have many wonderful places to photograph within a few miles of my house, not to mention just outside my back door! C'mon up here!

We should remember that Richard is a fine photographer (visit his site to see examples), which means the camera design comes from someone who knows what photographers need, and tested by someone who knows what he's doing.

Plus, if it's a large format camera, he's probably worked on it, or at least seen it, so the depth of knowledge of what works (and what doesn't) is considerable, and I would argue unsurpassed.

Finally, it's his design, with pieces borrowed from other places, I'm sure, but it's certainly not a knock-off of someone else's work.

Bread's going into the oven, RIchard. See you tomorrow.

Asher Kelman
10-Oct-2007, 10:40
Don't want to travel. We have many wonderful places to photograph within a few miles of my house, not to mention just outside my back door!
That's O.K. Bruce, we can send you the pictures!

Asher

RichardRitter
10-Oct-2007, 16:23
Now where would one hold the Chamonix-Ritter ULF shootout?

Asher

"Journeys To The Masterpiece" (http://www.openphotographyforums)

How about a game of king of the hill. I know of a good spot with rocks and water. It also has a big tree near by to use to bang the water out of the camera before taking the photograph.:eek:

Asher Kelman
10-Oct-2007, 18:59
How about a game of king of the hill. I know of a good spot with rocks and water. It also has a big tree near by to use to bang the water out of the camera before taking the photograph.:eek:

Well, that would limit what lenses we'd be willing to use! How about that each person has a repair kit! The Chamonix was born in the snow, LOL, so don't think that your New England weather necessarily gives you such an advantage! :)

However, I for one am so happy to see the effort made to use new materials to make the cameras light. I hope the price will follow suit

So, will the new light version of your camera have rear movements?

Asher :)

John Bowen
11-Oct-2007, 04:00
Richard's ULF cameras have rear shift, swing and tilt. I'm sure his "mini" cameras will have the same movements.

Bruce Barlow
11-Oct-2007, 04:49
Richard's ULF cameras have rear shift, swing and tilt. I'm sure his "mini" cameras will have the same movements.

The ULF has asymmetric rear swing, which is simple and elegant engineering and easy to use.

Richard tests his camera designs wearing gloves. He likes to photograph when it's reeeeally cold, and so the camera has to work and be easy to use when suited up.

Asher, Richard was bashing his camera against the tree sans-lens. The water sprays out the front better that way.:)

Bruce Barlow
11-Oct-2007, 14:40
OK. Never posted a picture here before, so here goes.

The bed for the Richard Ritter "Baby" camera inside the back of a 20x24 under construction, photographed in the rain today. What you see weighs 8 ounces.

The camera back is near the bottom. Carbon rails and the bed for the front nearer the top. Look carefully and you can see a rail for the big camera below the white card. Carbon rails can be cut to any length you need.

Rakesh Malik
12-Oct-2007, 09:08
The ULF has asymmetric rear swing, which is simple and elegant engineering and easy to use.


I've really come to like the asymmetric tilts and swings on my Ebony -- which are also the main reasons that I chose an Ebony over the alternatives. The few others that offered asymmetric movements did so with heavier cameras.



Richard tests his camera designs wearing gloves. He likes to photograph when it's reeeeally cold, and so the camera has to work and be easy to use when suited up.


If the 4x5 version retains the asymmetric movements, it's going to be a surprisingly nice camera... and with that much less weight, it might be enough to make me give up the Ebony!

Not that I'm not happy with the Ebony, but if I can get the same capabilities with a few pounds less weight, then I know what I'd prefer to carry over Asgard Ridge or up to Camp Muir when the time comes :)

Asher Kelman
12-Oct-2007, 10:13
Richard's ULF cameras have rear shift, swing and tilt. I'm sure his "mini" cameras will have the same movements.

Rear rise if possible would be superb!

Asher

John Bowen
12-Oct-2007, 11:07
Rear rise if possible would be superb!

Asher

Rear Rise = NO. Front Fall = YES.

Jeremy Moore
16-Nov-2007, 13:28
any chance for a flash shoe or 2? Just get add a grip, rangefinder, and viewer....

John Bowen
17-Nov-2007, 06:19
any chance for a flash shoe or 2? Just get add a grip, rangefinder, and viewer....

Sounds like you are lookiing for a 8x10 crown graphic. If you ask Richard, he could probably make the modifications for you...

John

Toyon
17-Nov-2007, 06:55
Grammar question: Should it be the "old mans' " camera rather than "old man's"? Unless you are speaking of your father or a specific old man.

Sal Santamaura
17-Nov-2007, 10:07
Grammar question: Should it be the "old mans' " camera rather than "old man's"? Unless you are speaking of your father or a specific old man.Grammar? In 2007?? On the Internet??? Of all the bumper stickers I've seen in 30 years of driving 100 miles each day around greater Los Angeles, the best one was:

"I feel much better since I gave up hope."

Seems like an appropriate sentiment in response to your question. :)

Rakesh Malik
17-Nov-2007, 18:01
Grammar question: Should it be the "old mans' " camera rather than "old man's"? Unless you are speaking of your father or a specific old man.

It should be "an old man's" camera. There is no such thing in English as "mans" so the construct "mans'" doesn't compute.

Jim Rhoades
20-Nov-2007, 14:29
Bruce, A bit off thread but I understand you will be at Peters Valley this summer. Are you dragging along Richard, Ted and this new camera?

Dave_B
21-Nov-2007, 05:59
Is this thread about wind?? If I remember correctly, acceleration = force ÷ mass, so the lighter your camera, the faster it falls to the ground…

The acceleration due to gravity is independent of mass. Ignoring air friction effects it is 9.8 meters per second squared. The gravitational force depends on mass thus it drops out when you calculate the acceleration. It is air friction effects that makes a feather fall more slowly than a bowling ball, not gravity. In a vacuum both accelerate at the same rate.

John Bowen
21-Nov-2007, 09:51
The acceleration due to gravity is independent of mass. Ignoring air friction effects it is 9.8 meters per second squared. The gravitational force depends on mass thus it drops out when you calculate the acceleration. It is air friction effects that makes a feather fall more slowly than a bowling ball, not gravity. In a vacuum both accelerate at the same rate.


Who says Large Format Photographers aren't smarter than a 5th grader??? :D

Rakesh Malik
21-Nov-2007, 10:59
The acceleration due to gravity is independent of mass. Ignoring air friction effects it is 9.8 meters per second squared. The gravitational force depends on mass thus it drops out when you calculate the acceleration. It is air friction effects that makes a feather fall more slowly than a bowling ball, not gravity. In a vacuum both accelerate at the same rate.

I suppose that depends on whether he was referring to the effect of wind vs the effect of gravity after the camera's already destabilized. A heavier camera will require more force from the wind before it destabilizes and falls over, and it will shift away from its stable position more slowly due to the fact that more mass yields more inertia for the wind to overcome, but other than that, you're right. :)

RichardRitter
22-Nov-2007, 08:01
About 90% of the cameras that get blown or tip over are from not being set up correctly.
So mass has little to do with if a camera going over or not. I found the heaver the camera the more damage they inflict upon then selves when the hit the only rock for 10 feet.

If you take a look at the thread http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=29140.
The camera in that thread has hit the ground about a dozen times 3 by accident the rest by being pushed over on a tripod to see what happens. Haven't broken anything yet.

Rakesh Malik
23-Nov-2007, 16:06
About 90% of the cameras that get blown or tip over are from not being set up correctly.


I can buy that. :)



So mass has little to do with if a camera going over or not. I found the heaver the camera the more damage they inflict upon then selves when the hit the only rock for 10 feet.


In some sense, mass DOES have an effect, but that's part of the setup, also. If you weight the 'pod down and set it with the legs nice and wide, it's going to take a LOT of wind to blow it over, for example... but when it does, it doesn't surprise me at all that a heavier camera takes more damage from the fall than a lighter one. It will hit the ground at approximately the same speed, but it will stop just as quickly, and as anyone with any knowledge of physics or martial arts knows, damage comes from acceleration, not momentum :)



If you take a look at the thread http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=29140.
The camera in that thread has hit the ground about a dozen times 3 by accident the rest by being pushed over on a tripod to see what happens. Haven't broken anything yet.

I did see that thread -- and I'm still impressed. I'm looking forward to seeing your 4x5, especially if it includes asymmetric movements. I'm just hoping that you get it into production before I make the Mt. Rainier summit attempt this summer :)

dpetersen
10-Dec-2007, 21:23
Any chance one of these 4x5's would be available around Feb 1st for a hands on demo?

DP

Turner Reich
10-Dec-2007, 22:19
Vector = force with a velocity & a magnitude.

How firm are these cameras to torus or flex?

They look quite interesting in design.

Bruce Barlow
11-Dec-2007, 05:25
Any chance one of these 4x5's would be available around Feb 1st for a hands on demo?

DP

You mean at the Fine Focus Snow and Ice workshop? I'm hoping. Richard is quiet, as always. He never promises anything he might not be able to deliver.

Rakesh Malik
11-Dec-2007, 10:20
Vector = force with a velocity & a magnitude.


What are you talking about?

keeds
2-Jan-2008, 09:41
Any progress on the prototype or pricing?

Bruce Barlow
2-Jan-2008, 10:33
Any progress on the prototype or pricing?

Can you believe it? Richard actually wanted to ENJOY the holidays! He went to visit his folks, he ate his mom's fine cooking, he visited with his dad. Was he building MY camera? NO! Then, he had to WAIT while the weather got good enough to drive back to Vermont from Pennsylvania, because the weather had the NERVE to be bad and delay his return! All of these things getting in the way of MY camera!

I understand he's got some parts in, but I don't know how far that gets him. Pricing, IMHO, is probably a long ways away just yet, since he has yet to decide on all the parts...and decide order quantities...and get quotes...and run the numbers when he has quotes. So at this point, even "ballpark" pricing would be unfair to guess.

Richard has the experience to be careful and thorough before announcing anything firm. I respect that. Please be patient, he'll get there. Or I'll beat him up.

keeds
2-Jan-2008, 11:22
No worries, I was just wondering out loud...