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ljsegil
14-Sep-2007, 21:49
I am getting dangerously tempted by the reach that I might be able to achieve shooting a 600mm telephoto lens with my new (part of why I am dangerous) 4x5 Master Technika. It appears to me that I have more than just adequate bellows draw for either the Nikkor or Fuji 600T lenses, and with an extension board could probably even focus to a reasonable distance short of infinity and still have minimal movements, at least rear. I am mostly thinking of these lenses for landscapes/nature. However, both these lenses, particularly the Nikkor (although I cannot find an exact weight) are quite heavy; are they perhaps too heavy for the camera at full extension, or for my back with a pack? I imagine they have other drawbacks of which I am as yet unaware? I don't have nearly the draw for a non-telephoto lens of such focal length although the Fuji 600C certainly sounds ideal. I am very curious to hear of anyones' evaluations of these lenses, their image quality and handling, how well suited they might be for my tasks and camera, are there better alternatives, or will I be disappointed by their performance/crushed by their weight and just forget the whole idea and save my money for my next hare-brained scheme?
Any and all help, accumulated wisdom and experience, and kindness will be most appreciated.
Thanks,
LJ
And if anybody is looking to sell a Fuji Compact 450mm lens, please let me know--it appears that none of the dealers have any in stock.

Dave_B
15-Sep-2007, 07:33
Nikkor makes a number of telephoto lenses, both for 4x5 and 8x10. For 4x5 they have a 270mm and a set of lenses with interchangable backs for 360mm, 500mm and 720mm. For 8x10 they have a physically much larger set of lenses with interchangable backs for 600mm, 800mm and 1200mm. I have them all and they are fine lenses. For 4x5 only, I recommend the 360-500-720 set. They are reasonably light, have good performance and the flexibility of having only one shutter and front element for three different lengths is a plus. The difficulty is finding them. Typically, the 360 is sold complete and the 500 and 720 rear lenses are sold separately but YMMV.
Good luck,
Dave B.

Dave_B
15-Sep-2007, 07:40
Nikkor makes a number of telephoto lenses, both for 4x5 and 8x10. For 4x5 they have a 270mm and a set of lenses with interchangable backs for 360mm, 500mm and 720mm. For 8x10 they have a physically much larger set of lenses with interchangable backs for 600mm, 800mm and 1200mm. I have them all and they are fine lenses. For 4x5 only, I recommend the 360-500-720 set. They are reasonably light, have good performance and the flexibility of having only one shutter and front element for three different lengths is a plus. The difficulty is finding them. Typically, the 360 is sold complete and the 500 and 720 rear lenses are sold separately but YMMV.
Good luck,
Dave B.

Correction: Nikkor made a number of telephoto lenses, not "makes". They are currently out of the LF lens business.

ljsegil
15-Sep-2007, 08:49
On the other hand, if I can find them, I like the spacing, versatility, and longer reach of a 300, 450, and 600mm set versus the 300 (already have this), 360, and 500mm set that I can achieve with the Nikkor lenses (although the exchangable rear element does sound good). I don't know that I could manage the 470mm draw needed for the 720mm lens back on the Technika, even with an extension board, and that brings back the question of a 600mm lens instead.
Such problems.
LJ

KenM
17-Sep-2007, 05:40
A buddy tried the 600-T on his Tech V, and the bellows were pulled taut, which is definitely not good for them. He could just barely focus at infinity. You also have to rack the camera out to it's limits (using both front extension, and by extending the back).

I have the Nikkor 500mm, and it fits quite nicely on my Master Tech. I have not tried the 600-T, so I can't tell you if you have more focusing latitude than you have on the Tech V.

Bob Salomon
17-Sep-2007, 06:54
To safely use this lens you would need the Extension Lensboard set from Wista for the Linhof Technika.

Ed Richards
17-Sep-2007, 07:07
I use a Fuji 400T on my Technika IV, which I think has the same bellows draw as yours. This puts the lens at the full reach of the rack on forward extension, but not cranked out beyond that, except for focusing closer than infinity. Ken's experience may be different, but I found keeping the rig steady enough to get sharp pictures is very hard with a 400, and would only be worse with the 500. But I shoot in the field and conditions are not always ideal. No wind and solid ground for the tripod and it should be fine.

KenM
17-Sep-2007, 11:48
I use a Fuji 400T on my Technika IV, which I think has the same bellows draw as yours. This puts the lens at the full reach of the rack on forward extension, but not cranked out beyond that, except for focusing closer than infinity. Ken's experience may be different, but I found keeping the rig steady enough to get sharp pictures is very hard with a 400, and would only be worse with the 500. But I shoot in the field and conditions are not always ideal. No wind and solid ground for the tripod and it should be fine.

I've never had a problem with the 400-T, nor with the Nikon 500-T. However, I do have a pretty solid tripod - Gitzo 3540XLS - so I have a very solid platform to work on. Just this weekend, I made a 3 minute exposure with the 500-T, and the image was absolutely tack-sharp. When shooting with shorter focal length lenses, I tend to use the tripod hold on the bottom of the back; when I move to the 500, I use the hole on the bottom of the bed, which centers the camera (more or less) over the tripod head. That definitely makes a difference.

Most definitely, wind would be an issue, especially with a longer exposure. However, for my 3 minute shot from this past weekend, there was no wind, so I had no real issues. Other than having a moment of fear an hour later and 25 miles away that I botched the exposure :D Thankfully, I did have it correct.

MJSfoto1956
17-Sep-2007, 15:17
I've used the 500T with my Technikardan in Ireland where the wind is pretty much in constant flux. And I can assure you that you must make extraordinary effort to keep the tripod AND the camera completely still during your inevitable 2-3 minute exposure.
I used two things:


Large Umbrella protecting the camera
Weighted tripod with mesh bag and rocks

I wish I had also done:


Weighted camera with a slab of heavy slate on top of everything!


Anyway, the 500T is such a great lens. I think you'll find it plenty long when used with large format.

ljsegil
17-Sep-2007, 15:43
You all are making the Fuji 600T (flange-back distance 384mm) and the Nikkor 600T (410mm) sound pretty untenable for use on a Technika, extension board or no. I don't even know the weight of the Nikkor, but I found a weight for the Fuji of an even kilo. The whole thing just doesn't sound too stable or user friendly to me now. Oh well, maybe I can actually save a little cash for a change (or until the next dumb idea comes along).
Thanks,
LJS

steve simmons
17-Sep-2007, 16:27
Nikon never made a 500Tmm lens. Fujinon made the the 400T and 600T. Nikon did make a series of telephoto lenses for 4x5 . The front element stays the same and the back element changes according to the focal length - 360-500-720. These lenses are designated as T360, T500 or T720.

A telephoto lens generally requires a bellows extension of 2/3rds its focal length for an infinity focus. Infinity is generally considered to be 100 times the focal length of the lens.

The Nikon 360 has a flange focal length of 261mm, the 500 a ffl of 350mm, and the 720 has a ffl of 469mm.

The Fuji 400T has a ffl of 259mm and the 600T has a ffl of 384mm.

Osaka telephoto lenses, sold by Bromwell Marketing, have a 400mm lens with a ffl of 236mm and a 500mm lens with a ffl of 295mm.

I generally recommend that the bellows extension capability of a camera be at least 25% longer then the draw needed for an infinity focus on any lens and this would include one with a telephoto design.

View Camera magazine has run an extensive series of articles on lenses and has a collection of them available as pdf files on a CD.

steve simmons
publisher, view camera magazine
www.viewcamera.com

ljsegil
18-Sep-2007, 03:39
Steve,
If you care to check with Andrea you will understand why I have not, as yet, had the opportunity to read the articles on your CD, which I fully intend to do. The bulb which is slowly lighting in my otherwise dim head is that despite the fact that the Technika with an extension board can in fact focus the Fuji 600T at infinity, it would probably not be a very practical or rewarding lens to use on that camera. This is the sort of wisdom that I seek when I turn to the forum for advice. I am coming to the conclusion that the Fuji 450-C on an extension board will be a better choice, though without quite the reach of the 600T or much (if any) advantage in bellows draw (still pretty much limited to infinity focus), but better for handling and successful shooting than a 600T for my purposes and abilities. I am getting the impression that the difficulties in achieving satisfactory photos go up dramatically with the focal length and weight of the lens being used, thus giving a significant advantage to a light 450mm lens over a heavy 600mm sample.
If I am missing the point, please do help correct me. As I began the thread, I welcome all the help I can get.
(And extension board recommendations would be quite welcome at this time).
Many thanks,
Larry

steve simmons
18-Sep-2007, 06:40
Your CD went out yesterday, USPS.

I am not sure I agree about the 600T not working. It only has a ffl of 384mm and there is the Osaka 500 with a ffl of 295mm.

Do you need a lens that long. A 600mm is 4X the normal for a 4x5.

steve

ljsegil
18-Sep-2007, 07:09
I am new to LF photography and not at all sure what I need, although I (think I) know what I like (or think I need?). My desire for long lenses is driven by my shooting patterns with 35mm and MF cameras (and simple lens lust). I tend to shoot (in 35mm) quite a bit between 200 and 300mm, and thought I might like to try and replicate that ability. Of course, that may be completely fallacious thinking. I think the sensible thing for me to do is get some experience with the Fuji 450-C (hopefully in my grubby little hands sometime next week) and then make a more informed (though probably not more intelligent) decision as to whether a 600T would be a valuable addition to my lens armamentarium. I'm just tempted right now while Midwest Photo has a 600T available, and it seems the Fuji lenses are getting hard to find. Thus I am trying to find out whether the 600mm lens is even feasible for use on the Master Technika, or will I just run into difficulties that will be more than my limited experience and knowledge can handle. Of course, the bellows extensions for the 450mm and 600mm lenses are similar, but the weights of the two lenses are dramatically different and the sensitivity to vibration and movement would also favor the 450mm, so I'm hoping that the 450mm would be a signigicantly easier lens to learn to use. (And any recommendations for an appropriate extension board for either lens would be appreciated, as in fact would a recommendation for a recessed board for the SA 72XL, which ought to be an entirely different thread, sorry for the intrusion).
Anyway, once more I throw myself on the mercy of the forum, and and all advice, assistance, wisdom, or simply derision (if deserved) will be most appreciated.
Thanks,
Larry

David A. Goldfarb
18-Sep-2007, 07:20
There are a few considerations about long lenses with LF that are a bit different from smaller formats.

While non-tele lenses are generally sharper than tele lenses, for instance, you also need to consider that it's harder to make a sharp image when you have more bellows draw. The bellows can become a sail in the wind, and the fully extended rail is less stable than a shorter rail and might require extra support (like a Bogen Magic Arm between one end of the camera and a tripod leg, an extra monopod, or even a second tripod).

You've also got more film real estate, if you want to crop or switch to a rollfilm back.

The longest lens I usually carry with my 4x5" kit is a 360mm tele, and if I need something longer, I usually switch to a 6x7 back or crop if it's just a few shots.

Matus Kalisky
18-Sep-2007, 07:40
To comment a bit on the experience with tele lenses. I am using Osaka 400/8 (probably the same witht the Congo lenses) with my Tachihara. While with its weight of rather moderate 500 g (including lens board) it is not that heavy and bellows draw for infinity focus is some 235 mm, it is completely different animal than non tele lenses. Imgage circle of this one is somewhere about 200 mm, but it is very easy to get vignetting even witht very small movements. Framing and focusing gets more compicated with tele lenses as the camera is getting nose - heavy though some quick release system with long camera plate would help on this. I am using a very stable Linhof 3-D tripod head but might go for Manfroto 410 geared head if I would be using this lens more.

Steve mentined the Osaka 500/9.5 lens but you should better avoid this one as it was designed more for 6x9 (or 6x12) as it has image cirlce of only 160 mm. Some users have reported that wahtever they did the lens did vignett on 4x5 in infinity.

If you really want to use 600mm on 4x5 you might as well consider a different camera. Still you will need very stable head and tripod.

good luck

steve simmons
18-Sep-2007, 08:29
OK, we need some more info.

All tele lenses will have a small image circle. It is a function of their design. Very little rise and fall or shift can be used. Back sweing and tilt is better than front swing and tilt for these lenses.

I would not say that one of these lenses makes the camera nose heavy. They require less bellows extension than a non tele design of the same focal length and most are in #1 shutters which are not that big.

If you are seriously interested in one of these lenses look back through your View Camera issues to 1991 and find the article which explains how these lenses are designed and how to use them.

steve simmons

sog1927
18-Sep-2007, 10:02
Well, if you're really suffering from long lens lust there's always *this* example of wretched excess from the Auction Site That Must Not Be Named:

http://cgi.ebay.com/NIKKOR-T-ED-1200MM-800MM-600MM-MIZUTANI-RIG_W0QQitemZ120163290760QQihZ002QQcategoryZ30076QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

;-)

Steve

KenM
18-Sep-2007, 12:00
Nikon never made a 500Tmm lens. Fujinon made the the 400T and 600T. Nikon did make a series of telephoto lenses for 4x5 . The front element stays the same and the back element changes according to the focal length - 360-500-720. These lenses are designated as T360, T500 or T720.


You're being pedantic.

I have a lens. It's made by Nikon. It's a telephoto. The focal length is 500mm. Ergo, Nikon makes a 500mm Telephoto lens, which can be abbreviated as Nikon 500T.

By using the term 500T, people can infer that the lens is a Telephoto design. Who cares if the T is at the end?

steve simmons
18-Sep-2007, 12:06
This was someone new to the field and I did not want them looking for a lens that did not exist. Being specific is more helpful.

steve simmons

ljsegil
18-Sep-2007, 18:22
Actually, I have been doing my homework for some time now, and I do understand the differences between telephoto and non-telephoto lenses, and that Fuji and Nikon both have 600mm telephoto lenses, but I am afraid I don't always remember the exact nomenclature when I am composing at the keyboard. The essence of my original and rather too wordy question was really pretty simple, but I'm not sure if it has been answered in this thread. Is a 600mm telephoto lens practical, or perhaps better stated, desirable, to use on a Master Technika? Is such a pairing, given one wants to use that long a lens, reasonable, or are the mechanics too difficult to expect to achieve good results? In other words, is this a good idea or one that belongs in the trash.
Just wondering.
LJS

David A. Goldfarb
18-Sep-2007, 19:07
It's possible, and the question is really--under what conditions are you shooting and how hard are you willing to work to do it? As Bob Salomon said, you could use a 600mm tele safely with a Wista extension board. I have a Wista extension board, and I've put some large lenses on my Technika, so I know that such things are possible, and that a Technika is strong enough to hold surprisingly large lenses. If you're going to use this combination in the field, and there might be wind, then you'll want to think about some extra support for the camera.

Another question is whether you are familiar enough with the format to know whether this is something you really want or need. The fact that you like lenses that are about 4x the normal focal length in smaller formats doesn't necessarily mean you'll see the same way in large format. When you have a larger sheet of film, for instance, you can resolve more detail with a wide lens, so if you didn't use wide lenses that often on smaller formats, you might decide they are more interesting on 4x5". On 35mm you might like the look of a longer lens, because you like short DOF for selective focus, but on a view camera, you can get selective focus with any lens by using the camera movements.

If you're new to 4x5", shoot for a while. Start with maybe a 150mm, and then maybe a 90mm and a 210mm--these are fairly standard lenses. If you find you're always stretching for something longer, and you're comfortable operating the camera with what you've got, then look into a longer tele.

ljsegil
19-Sep-2007, 12:28
Thank you David, that is the sort of thing that makes sense to me and is very helpful.
LJS

Sunny Boaz
23-Sep-2007, 22:27
It's possible, and the question is really--under what conditions are you shooting and how hard are you willing to work to do it? As Bob Salomon said, you could use a 600mm tele safely with a Wista extension board. I have a Wista extension board, and I've put some large lenses on my Technika, so I know that such things are possible, and that a Technika is strong enough to hold surprisingly large lenses. If you're going to use this combination in the field, and there might be wind, then you'll want to think about some extra support for the camera.

Another question is whether you are familiar enough with the format to know whether this is something you really want or need. The fact that you like lenses that are about 4x the normal focal length in smaller formats doesn't necessarily mean you'll see the same way in large format. When you have a larger sheet of film, for instance, you can resolve more detail with a wide lens, so if you didn't use wide lenses that often on smaller formats, you might decide they are more interesting on 4x5". On 35mm you might like the look of a longer lens, because you like short DOF for selective focus, but on a view camera, you can get selective focus with any lens by using the camera movements.

If you're new to 4x5", shoot for a while. Start with maybe a 150mm, and then maybe a 90mm and a 210mm--these are fairly standard lenses. If you find you're always stretching for something longer, and you're comfortable operating the camera with what you've got, then look into a longer tele.

As a novice to the LF, I like the way you put those guidelines(?) for persons like myself and the OP.
Thanks,