Digital Silver Gelatin has arrived...

[Jack Flesher]

My friend Jim Collum called me a few days ago and said, "Jack, you need to try this new paper now!"

The paper is the new Harman Inkjet "Gloss FB AL." So I went to my local shop, picked up a box yesterday and set to profiling it for my Epson 3800.

The first thing you notice is the paper's surface -- identical to air-dried fiber-base silver, with a slight egg-shell finish and soft gloss. Sweet. Next thing you notice is this paper even smells like traditional silver paper. (Seriously!) Finally, it has a slightly warm white base.

This paper is thick and also swells when the ink hits it, so I needed to set my paper thickness up a notch (4 on the 3800 driver) and platten gap to "wide" to avoid head-strikes on the wet surface. Once all that was settled I printed the profiling targets, let it dry down over-night and built the profile this morning.

I am now sitting here admiring my standard large paper evaluation print -- a color test image (available for download at digital outback photo), and a long tonal range B&W image, doubled up and printed together on a single 13x19 sheet.

As for B&W, in the black patches I can distinguish patch 4 (4/4/4 rgb) from 0 and 6, and in the white patches I can distinguish 253 from 255 and 252. (I can sense 254 is different from the surrounds, but can't really "see" it as its own tone.) Anyway, this is incredible tonal range, and of course is all present in the B&W image -- pure, deep blacks with outstanding shadow detail all the way through to delicately detailed highlights. Amazing.

As for color, I was frankly surprised -- it is excellent too. There is a specific image of strawberries in the color test print that reproduce to the most delicious I've seen from any paper yet :) All other colors are exceptionally well represented too, including a blue sky gradient, foliage yellows and greens and a difficult metallic bronze.

Now for the better news: There is NO gloss differential and NO visible metamerism anywhere on the print!

Lastly, the "AL" in the paper name stands for "alumina," a reference to the fact there is aluminum in the substrate -- ostensibly it's there to emulate the slight metallic "glow" present in a silver-gelatin print. And yes, I saved the best news for last, they accomplished that feat. There is indeed a subtle metallic glow that adds traditional silver depth to the final print.

This is amazing stuff folks; I have found my paper.

More info here: http://www.harman-inkjet.com/pressroom/article.asp?n=63


Cheers,

[Jeremy Moore]

I saw some sample prints at APIS in Santa Fe on the glossy, but they were only selling the matte paper then. Glad to hear the glossy is finally shipping!

[Ken Lee]

Is there a profile for it ?

[David R Munson]

Sounds like good stuff.

[Ben R]

Now for the better news: There is NO gloss differential and NO visible metamerism anywhere on the print!

I thought that was due to the ink and printer rather than the paper itself. That said it sounds very exciting!

[Jon Shiu]

Is there a profile for it ?

Hi, if you follow the link in Jack's message, the link for profiles is on the right of the screen.

Jon

[tim atherton]

I thought that was due to the ink and printer rather than the paper itself. That said it sounds very exciting!

all three are factors

[Ben R]

Doesn't seem to be any rolls yet though no doubt it will come, seems a bit pricey too but I have no concept of inkjet paper prices.

[JPlomley]

Hi Jack,

Thanks for posting this feedback. For the B&W work, did you try the ABW mode on the 3800 with this paper? I'm curious what sort of tonal range you would see in comparison to what you have profiled. Have you compared this paper to Hahnemuhle's FineArt Pearl? I'd be interested in seeing a gamut plot comparison (if you're on a Mac this is easy to do in ColorSync)

Cheers,
Jeff

[JPlomley]

Jack, if you don't have the icc profile for the HFAP I can send you one I that I've profiled on my Epson 7800 (at 2880 dpi) using the Gretag iOne Pro spectrophotometer and larger test patch. Or alternatively you could send me your profile and I can overlay the gamut plots. To make it fair, you will have had to profile at 2880 dpi. I do an equal amount of B&W and color printing, so you have my interest piqued.

[Bruce Watson]

I'm interested in how you think this new paper compares to the gloss papers already in this "air dried F surface" market. Like Crane Museo Silver Rag and other competitors. When you get around to it - I'm sure you doing a lot of printing at the moment. ;)

[Jack Flesher]

First off, I don't profile at 2880 any more, only 1440 -- mainly because that's all I print at now. When I first got the 3800, I compared a 2880 print and profile to a 1440 print and profile for Epson Premium Gloss and could not see any visible difference in the prints. I then compared the profiles and they were virtually identical anyway.

As for ABW mode, I don't use it. My own profiles (Gretag Eye1 and big target) render dead-neutral grayscale throughout the entire tonal range on the 3800, so I print my B&W's with my profile just like I do any color image. Big advantage over ABW is WYSIWYG B&W output, even more helpful if you like to tone.

Fine art pearl (and all the other so called "air-dried F's" I've seen) are not even in the same ball game as this new Harman paper... This one really does look like air-dried F with the same kind of "depth" -- and even has slight ripples after printing like real air-dried F! To me, most of the other wanna-be's look like somebody sprayed a surface coating on a fiber substrate; the Harman makes you want to soup it to see what happens :D

Cheers,

[Jack Flesher]

I thought that was due to the ink and printer rather than the paper itself. That said it sounds very exciting!

Yes, all three factors come into play -- I was speaking specifically as respects Epson K3 (x800) printers. GD in the highlights has been an issue for them on glossy papers up till now.

[Brian Ellis]

Thanks Jack. Before springing for a box, just to be sure I get what you're talking about, you said "Gloss FB AL." The only gloss Harman paper I see listed at Freestyle is "Glass FB AI." I assume the "L" in your message is a typo?

[tim atherton]

Thanks Jack. Before springing for a box, just to be sure I get what you're talking about, you said "Gloss FB AL." The only gloss Harman paper I see listed at Freestyle is "Glass FB AI." I assume the "L" in your message is a typo?

The "I" at freestyle is the typo it should be an "l" (L)

[Marco]

Thank you Jack!!!, this paper seems very very interesting...just one question, about colour printing (since I'm a colour photographer ;) ).

You wrote that it is excellent in colour too and, in case you evere tried Pictorico Photo Gallery Hi-Gloss White Film, I'd like to know how the Harman compares to the Pictorico (or with another veeeerrryyyy glossy paper, as the Epson Premium Glossy), especially for what concern the "brilliance" of colours, I'm going to print our last workso and we (i.e. me and Cristina) want a glossy - brilliant colours look, the Pictorico is quite ok, but I'm having tons of problems finding rolls here in Europe while the Harman products are more widely sold in the UK...

Thank you!!


Ciao
Marco

[David Luttmann]

Thanks Jack. I just saw an ad in print for this yesterday and was going to head out to see if I could purchase some. Sounds like it might be a winner.

[Jack Flesher]

You wrote that it is excellent in colour too and, in case you evere tried Pictorico Photo Gallery Hi-Gloss White Film, I'd like to know how the Harman compares to the Pictorico (or with another veeeerrryyyy glossy paper, as the Epson Premium Glossy), especially for what concern the "brilliance" of colours, I'm going to print our last workso and we (i.e. me and Cristina) want a glossy - brilliant colours look, the Pictorico is quite ok, but I'm having tons of problems finding rolls here in Europe while the Harman products are more widely sold in the UK...


Hi Marco:

This Harman paper is not nearly as glossy as Pictorico film, nor is it even as glossy as Epson Premium Gloss -- it truly has a finish just like air-dried F papers. If you never used traditional materials, air-dried F is a kind of satin-gloss; glossier than semi-gloss, but not as glossy as full gloss. It has a very subtle textured surface, like that of an eggshell, coupled with a soft but definite gloss. Hard to describe in words and up until this new Harman, no inkjet paper has replicated it. IMO the closest paper we had was Epson Premium Semi-matte, if you ever used that, but this Harman paper is smoother and a bit glossier than that, and has a subtle, deep silvery-metallic glow...

Cheers,

[Chris Strobel]

This is killin me, I just put a full cart of MK in my 4800 and am about to yank it out and dump forty dollars of ink to try this.Sure wish I could get a b&w sample print somewhere.

[Helen Bach]

Adorama have it in stock at the moment. I think that, among other inkjet papers, it looks most like the Oriental baryta inkjet paper, but without the strange surface imperfections that paper has. It doesn't have quite the same strong traditional FB paper smell that the Oriental paper has either.

Chris,

Pending other work commitments, I might be able to print off a B&W sample print for you this weekend.

Best,
Helen

[Jack Flesher]

This is killin me, I just put a full cart of MK in my 4800 and am about to yank it out and dump forty dollars of ink to try this.Sure wish I could get a b&w sample print somewhere.

I still will still use Mk for art papers -- that is IF I ever print on them again :D Seriously though, this paper is so cool it may be the only paper I use from here on out...

Don't know where you're located Chris, but if it's anywhere near Los Altos, CA (Silicon Valley), feel free to stop by and take a look!

Cheers,

[David A. Goldfarb]

At PMA in Las Vegas this past year, I spoke with Howard Hopwood from Ilford Harman about this paper, which they were working on at the time. He said they started with the baryta base used for MGIV FB, and were working on subbing it so that it would give as close to the same look as possible with inkjet.

[Chris Strobel]

Thanks Jack!Probably a little cheaper for me to dump ink than drive from Los Angees to Los Altos :D I am going to order a sample pack from freestyle to at least get a feel for the surface and texture.


I still will still use Mk for art papers -- that is IF I ever print on them again :D Seriously though, this paper is so cool it may be the only paper I use from here on out...

Don't know where you're located Chris, but if it's anywhere near Los Altos, CA (Silicon Valley), feel free to stop by and take a look!

Cheers,

[D. Bryant]

[QUOTE=David A. Goldfarb;271437]He said they started with the baryta base used for MGIV FB, [\QUOTE]
This could be a great thing to keep the production level of baryta base up.

Don Bryant

[Jack Flesher]

Thanks Jack!Probably a little cheaper for me to dump ink than drive from Los Angees to Los Altos :D I am going to order a sample pack from freestyle to at least get a feel for the surface and texture.

Wise choice :D I'll be interested to hear what you think of it. FWIW< the Harman page has links to specific profiles, and they are pretty good -- but ubnfortunatley not perfect (at least for the 3800). Enough to get you started with a sample print, but IMO the paper demands a dedicated custom profile for serious work.

Cheers,

[Marco]

Jack, thank you very much!!!

Actually I have always used the Epson Premium Semimatte for our images (it was my favourite paper until Epson Italy stopped importing it :( ), so now I've a better understanding of how the Harman should look like ...mmmmhhhh, maybe for our new series of images the Epson Semimatte is not the "perfect" media for what we have in mind, but based on what you wrote the Harman is definitely worth a try, thank you again, I'll order an A3 pack from the UK...


Ciao!!
Marco

[JPlomley]

Whew, did I get lucky. Went for a latte, popped over to the camera store to see if more Velvia 50 had come in, and they were just unpacking some 8.5 x 11 Gloss FB AL. I'll get a profile made, but first a question. The enclosed documentation specifies to set the print driver media type to "Watercolor Paper Radiant White" for Epson 4800, 7800, and 9800, and yet for the 3800 to use use "Premium Glossy Photo Paper". I would have not expected this much disparity in ink chemistry between the 4/7/9800 and the 3800! Jack, did you use the recommended print driver setting to create your profile? I may have to run the Drycreek printer evaluation profile to figure out what actually is the best print driver setting for this media. When I get a chance I'll also throw up some gamut comaprisons between this media and my favorite Hahnemuhle FineArt Pearl.

[Jack Flesher]

Whew, did I get lucky. Went for a latte, popped over to the camera store to see if more Velvia 50 had come in, and they were just unpacking some 8.5 x 11 Gloss FB AL. I'll get a profile made, but first a question. The enclosed documentation specifies to set the print driver media type to "Watercolor Paper Radiant White" for Epson 4800, 7800, and 9800, and yet for the 3800 to use use "Premium Glossy Photo Paper". I would have not expected this much disparity in ink chemistry between the 4/7/9800 and the 3800! Jack, did you use the recommended print driver setting to create your profile? I may have to run the Drycreek printer evaluation profile to figure out what actually is the best print driver setting for this media. When I get a chance I'll also throw up some gamut comaprisons between this media and my favorite Hahnemuhle FineArt Pearl.

Yes, I noticed that too and in fact did use Glossy for my 3800 profile, but as I indicated I also needed to set the paper thickness up to 4 and the platten gap up to "wide" to prevent head strikes. I suspect the use of WCRW on the other x800 printers has to do with feed paths and paper thickness...

FWIW, when you build a profile, you can use prett much any paper choice you want as long as it supports the correct K ink -- usually best however to start with the paper the manufacturer recommends.

[Robert Oliver]

what developer do you recommend with this paper?:p

[Chris Strobel]

How durable, scratch resistant is this paper?

[Jack Flesher]

How durable, scratch resistant is this paper?

Appears to be as good as Premium Luster, whch is petty durable.

[David Luttmann]

Great.....

Just got back from my lab with two sample packs and when I got home, noticed they were the Matt version. Guess I'm waiting till later this week to try it out.

As an aside, the Matt paper is incredible on both my Canon i9900 and Epson 7600.

[JPlomley]

FWIW, when you build a profile, you can use prett much any paper choice you want as long as it supports the correct K ink

Yeah, thats what I use the Drycreek Printer Evaluation Target for. I print it out varying only the paper type (I override the paper thickness defaults etc to suite the media). It tells me if I'm over-inking by examining the crosshairs, prints a gray scale so that I can determine which media type optimizes shadow detail, and gives a color gradient spectrum so I can check which media type produces the smoothest overall transitions with the greatest range into the shadows and highlights. Overall color casts are not a concern since the profile will fix these. I find it is better to choose media settings (i.e. mainly paper type) that deposits slightly too much ink than not enough. The profile helps to linearize the ink output. Too little ink on the paper reduces the printers color range. You can download the target at www.drycreekphoto.com

I probably won't get to this until tomorrow, but I'll report back what I find out for the benefit of 4800/7800/9800 owners.

[tim atherton]

Great.....

Just got back from my lab with two sample packs and when I got home, noticed they were the Matt version. Guess I'm waiting till later this week to try it out.

As an aside, the Matt paper is incredible on both my Canon i9900 and Epson 7600.

scratches as soon as you look at it though (or the samples from Ilford Harman did anyway)

which is why I'm also interested to see how durable the surface on the glossy is.

(The surface on Silver Rag is one of the toughest I've come across).

Also, like regular "darkroom" paper, I'm guessing this is an alpha cellulose paper?

Has anyone seen any longevity testing on it yet?

[Helen Bach]

Yeah, thats what I use the Drycreek Printer Evaluation Target for. I print it out varying only the paper type (I override the paper thickness defaults etc to suite the media)...

I do the same, but varying the ink limit as well. I believe that it is worth finding the optimum media setting, and the optimum ink limit before profiling. DMax varies, and so does the ability to get separation in the shadows - which may not be recoverable by profiling. The aim is to get the highest DMax while keeping the ability to get shadow separation with as many of the 256 values usable (you need all those values because the density range of these papers is so high). I have found that one of the following four settings* will usually be the best for glossy paper and PK with my 3800:

Glossy 0
Glossy +5
Luster 0
Luster +5

Usually it is one of the +5 options that works the best for me with these recent glossy papers.

In case anyone is interested, for colour work I use an Eye-One with SpectraShop for these simple evaluations (I think that it has the edge on BabelColor and the full version of Measure, but BabelColor is very good value), ProfileMaker 5 for the profiles themselves with 1452 patch targets, and ColorThink Pro for profile evaluation. I'm still using Krystal Topkote for overcoating these papers - it improves DMax and shadow separation, and gives some degree of abrasion resistance to the surface.

* Four test patches will fit on one sheet of letter size paper. I use the same sheet of paper for the thickness test, which I do first then overprint it with the Dry Creek test patches.

Best,
Helen

[David Luttmann]

scratches as soon as you look at it though (or the samples from Ilford Harman did anyway)

which is why I'm also interested to see how durable the surface on the glossy is.

(The surface on Silver Rag is one of the toughest I've come across).

Also, like regular "darkroom" paper, I'm guessing this is an alpha cellulose paper?

Has anyone seen any longevity testing on it yet?

Holy cow....you ain't kidding. Just played with the paper a bit and while it looks good, there is no way I could ship this stuff without it crumbling to dust. I'm going to use the remainder of the 10 sheets I've got but I won't buy it again.

Man....did I mention it crumbles to "heck?" :mad:

[william linne]

I did some tests on this paper and I have to say I disagree with the OP very strongly. This paper doesn't even come close to having the "feel" or surface quality of a good air dried glossy FB print. It has a weird smell that several people have independently described as "like a pickle", LOL. Having said that, b&w prints on the paper do indeed look nice and have a depth that has heretofore has been elusive in inkjet. But it doesn't come close to a FB print, yet. YMMV.

[Jim collum]

I did some tests on this paper and I have to say I disagree with the OP very strongly. This paper doesn't even come close to having the "feel" or surface quality of a good air dried glossy FB print. It has a weird smell that several people have independently described as "like a pickle", LOL. Having said that, b&w prints on the paper do indeed look nice and have a depth that has heretofore has been elusive in inkjet. But it doesn't come close to a FB print, yet. YMMV.

if you open a box of Ilford Multigrade FB (silver emulsion) and smell it, you'll find the smell the same, as is the surface. The difference is one has a silver emulsion, the other an inkjet receptor. They've taken their silver paper technology and used it for this paper. Physically, it shouldn't be any less durable than the same silver fiber print. as far as image longevity.. that's still up for testing.. but i'd put my money on the silver :)

[william linne]

Yeah, it's hard to quantify, Jim. But it definitely does not feel like a FB silver gelatin print. The surface is worlds apart from that. But it does take the ink nicely.

[Jack Flesher]

Yeah, it's hard to quantify, Jim. But it definitely does not feel like a FB silver gelatin print. The surface is worlds apart from that. But it does take the ink nicely.

Okay William, you are free to disagree, but at least DEFINE "worlds apart" as the difference you feel in the surface for all of us... Just saying that means nothing. Personally, I'm *really* interested to read what it is you feel in an air-dried F surface Silver print that you don't feel in this paper (or vice-versa). And again to be really clear, I'm talking about Harmon GLOSS FB AL, not the matte...

Cheers,

[william linne]

Sure, Jack. Indeed I was looking at the Glossy version. It has a more plasticky feel to it than FB paper. When I laid it next to 10 prints made on various traditional papers, the difference was immediately apparent. The Ilford paper gave an appearance of ink laying on paper, instead of the sense of depth that some of the traditional papers had. I was excited to get a sample pack and had high expectations. But, these are all just my opinions and don't mean squat. If you love it and it works for you, that's all that really matters, isn't it? I was merely stating that for my needs, it wasn't a substitute for traditional papers.

William

[Jack Flesher]

Wow -- interesting that you think it feels like plastic; even more interesting you don't see any depth... From your description, I'd swear we were looking at two completely different papers.

Best,

[Helen Bach]

...The Ilford paper gave an appearance of ink laying on paper, instead of the sense of depth that some of the traditional papers had...

Overcoating with something like Krystal Topkote helps to reduce that 'appearance of ink laying on paper' because the ink then appears to lie under and slightly within the surface gloss. I don't see any point, however, in mimicking all the qualities of traditional silver gelatin paper and I would prefer that inkjet paper be marketed for its own qualities rather than as wannabe silver gelatin. If you want real silver gelatin printed digitally you can have it.

Best,
Helen

[Donald Miller]

I have used the matte version of this paper for the past six months while in Europe. In fact it was the only paper available other than Epson and conventional Ilford paper. While the look is different from an air dried glossy traditional paper, I actually prefer it to any of the traditional glossy silver papers that I have used over the past twenty five years.

As far as resistance to damage, I shipped about 50 prints back to the US as checked airline baggage and found no damage on any of them.

[JPlomley]

Anyone know the paper thickness (mil or mm is fine)? This is a critical parameter in the Epson 7800 print driver utility, and oddly not supplied in the enclosed technical information nor on Harmans website? I'm guessing between 0.5-0.6mm, but if someone has the exact thickness that would be great.

Just to update the media type setting, WCRW gives a noticeable benefit in shadow detail over PG on an Epson 7800. This was based on the Drycreek Printer Evaluation target.

[Ben R]

So do you feel that there is an impression of the ink below the surface Jack?

I only tried inkjet seriously once with Kodak pro paper and a Canon 8000ipf that a friend has. Behind glass the only thing that clashed with me as a print was the 2D effect of the ink laying on the paper. The paper is the same base as the kodak chemical paper so it looks very similar and the canon does extremely impressive B&W's, but for me the 3D impression comes from looking 'through' the paper to see the print, a bit like looking through a window into the scene. With the ink lying on the surface I feel it looks too flat, too unreal.

Unfortunately that was enough to drive me back to LED printing on chemical paper. The B&W wasn't as pure, but it looked more 3D, more real.

[paulr]

Has anyone used this paper with monochrome pigment inks (piezo, etc.)?

[Stephen Best]

As for ABW mode, I don't use it. My own profiles (Gretag Eye1 and big target) render dead-neutral grayscale throughout the entire tonal range on the 3800, so I print my B&W's with my profile just like I do any color image. Big advantage over ABW is WYSIWYG B&W output, even more helpful if you like to tone.

I thought the same until I really looked into ABW. ABW will give you greater Dmax, better shadow separation, a black that matches the paper (instead of just neutral) and will likely use less colour inks in the mix (and hence have a longer display life). It can also be profiled with the QTR-Create-ICC script from the QuadTone RIP package for soft proofing and linearization. For toned B&W, Duotones etc I use a colour profile, but for straight B&W ABW gives visibly superior results.

I must admit to being pretty jaded with all these silver gelatin killers but I'll give the new offering a try.

[Jim collum]

a review of the paper by Richard Lohmann. my experience with the paper has been very close to what he's written

http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/Surface2.shtml

[Sylvester Graham]

Hmm, I wonder if in color that "plastic-y" feel might be translated to something like ciba/ilfochrome?

[Jim collum]

Hmm, I wonder if in color that "plastic-y" feel might be translated to something like ciba/ilfochrome?

nope.. closest thing you'll find to cibachrome digital is the Pictorico White Film http://www.pictorico.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=49

Ilford inkjet used to have a similar product (i found it closer to the Cibachrome look.. just without the metallic feel to it). I just looked at their web site, and they've completely overhauled their product line.. so i'm not sure what they're calling it now

Cibachrome was applied to Mellinex.. a plastic substrate that was dimensionally stable. The Harmon glossy is on traditional silver fiber paper.

[JPlomley]

ABW will give you greater Dmax, better shadow separation, a black that matches the paper (instead of just neutral)

Exactly what I determined when printing on Hahnemuhle PhotoRag 308. I am going to profile the Harman paper tonight and do the comparison between my profile and ABW.

[Helen Bach]

a review of the paper by Richard Lohmann. my experience with the paper has been very close to what he's written

http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/Surface2.shtml

It is called 'the world's first Baryta based inkjet paper' on Luminous Landscape. Surely Oriental can claim that achievement (http://orientalphotousa.com/press_graphica.htm)?

Best,
Helen

[Ted Harris]

Helen, very interesting. I feel stupid that I never knew of their entry into the inkjet paper market and the paper has been around for several years, too. Anyone have any experience with the Oriental papers?

[Jack Flesher]

For toned B&W, Duotones etc I use a colour profile, but for straight B&W ABW gives visibly superior results.

I must admit to being pretty jaded with all these silver gelatin killers but I'll give the new offering a try.

Yep, I recommend you test it yourself and print a B&W using both methods. I suspect you will only see advantages to using a good (custom) color profile while printing B&W on this paper.

However I will admit that if you don't have a good, custom color profile available, then using AWB wll usually deliver superior B&W. To wit, the Harmon canned 3800 profile for this paper is visibly quite a bit weaker in black D-Max than my custom profile.

Cheers,

[Helen Bach]

... Anyone have any experience with the Oriental papers?

Er, yes. I mentioned it earlier in this thread. (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showpost.php?p=271435&postcount=20)

I still have a small amount of it that I will probably never use, so I could send you a few sheets or, to save you time, I might have some prints made on it.

Best,
Helen

[Helen Bach]

Has anyone used this paper with monochrome pigment inks (piezo, etc.)?

Paul,

I have begun tests using Piezography inks with Krystal Topkote and other gloss optimizers in an R2400 using IJC/OPM (K7 plus gloss optimizer), but it is a slow process and Jon Cone is likely to get there first and better (no surprise!).

Best,
helen

[Jack Flesher]

a review of the paper by Richard Lohmann. my experience with the paper has been very close to what he's written

http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/Surface2.shtml

Yep Jim, my experience too. In fact, the following quote from Lohmann's write up that expressed his initial reaction when he first opened the box, was almost identical to my own --- and the reason I questioned William Linne as to whether we are talking of the same paper:

"Upon opening the box I could see that Harman Gloss was very different from other inkjet papers. As I removed the first sheet I noticed something familiar. This paper carried the same delicate scent as traditional gelatin silver papers. In fact, it seemed like gelatin silver paper––the color of the paper and the slight curl of the coated side that came from the baryta coating, felt like an old friend. Between my fingers it was smooth and crisp. And for a brief moment, I panicked––thinking that the contents of the box were being exposed to light!"

So for the life of me, I simply do not understand the comment "plasticy" surface as respects this new Harman paper... Like I said, it is so close to traditional silver gelatin in look and feel and even smell (at least to my eyes, fingers AND nose), it makes me want to soup it to see what might happen :D


Cheers,

[Stephen Best]

Yep, I recommend you test it yourself and print a B&W using both methods.

I have, comparing the best I can get from tuned custom RGB profiles of my own against tuned ABW settings and a custom grayscale profile. I haven't yet tried this new paper but the gains are evident for every rag and lustre/rag paper I've used to date.

Here's some more information on ABW (and specifically for your printer) that supports my findings:

http://www.outbackprint.com/printinginsights/pi045/essay.html#20070103

Though I would have thought you'd be aware of this and have done your own tests.

[Ted Harris]

I expect to have some of the paper in hand next week and will then test it with both the HP z3100 and the Canon 6100. Will be interested in seeing the results.

[Jack Flesher]

Though I would have thought you'd be aware of this and have done your own tests.

I of course have done my own tests and have NOT seen those results... I assume my own profiles are simply --- ahem --- different than others, at least for the papers I use :)

Best,

[JPlomley]

Here are my results from an Epson 7800 running PK. I created a profile using the Gretag i1 pro spectrophotometer and large test chart printed at 1440 dpi at a specified paper width of 0.5mm. Prior to this, I determined that WCRW was the optimal print driver setting based upon my results using the DryCreek Printer Evaluation Target. I saw no signs of surface strikes when setting the platten gap to "Auto".

B&W prints using a Perceptual rendering intent were a bit warmer than Relative Colorimetric, but you have to really look hard to discern the difference. At first appearance the print using relative colorimetric looked dead neutral (more later). In comparison to Hahnemuhle FineArt Pearl, a noticeable improvement in Dmax and surprisingly, overall sharpness.

Next, I then tried to compare the prints using my custom profile to the ABW mode. But here is the catch...with PK ink loaded, you cannot use WCRW in ABW (presumeably you would need to use MK, and I just can't see this optimizing Dmax with this paper). So I switched to Premium Glossy as the media type, the next best print driver setting as detemined using the Drycreek target. Using ABW with "neutral" toning, the tonal range and shadow detail was identical to what I could achieve with my custom profile. This is quite disparite from what I observed on Hahnemuhle PhotoRag 308 which clearly benefited from using the ABW with a bit of cooling to offset the warmth of this paper. Further comparison between the print derived using my custom profile (relative colorimetric rendering intent) to that using the ABW mode (neutral) revealed that the latter was just a "tad" more neutral, or shall we say, less warm. But you really really need to look hard under a 5000K viewing booth to pick this out. Finally, to my eye (and again, this is very subjective), the most neutral looking print was achieved using ABW mode with a bit of cooling. My wife disagrees with me on the cooling in ABW mode furnishing the most neutral print, and I'm sure if you showed a dozen other people, there would be no clear consensus.

Now the color gamut plots. Well, I have to give the nod to HFAP here. It is clear that HFAP has a larger color gamut in the deep greens, blues, and reds (the white wire mesh is Gloss FB Al; where the mesh is gray, it lies below the surface of HFAP). As a landscape photographer shooting mainly Fujichrome Velvia 50 and Kodak E100VS, I want the largest color gamut possible. For my work, I will adopt Gloss FB Al for all of my B&W street photography, and continue to stick with HFAP for all color landscape imagery.

[JPlomley]

Here is another angle on the gamut plot. For those running a Mac, I can send you the ICC profile for HFAP and the Gloss FB Al if you want to do the overlay yourself in ColorSync.

[Jack Flesher]

Using ABW with "neutral" toning, the tonal range and shadow detail was identical to what I could achieve with my custom profile.

Thank you for confimring that.

~~~


Now the color gamut plots. Well, I have to give the nod to HFAP here. It is clear that HFAP has a larger color gamut in the deep greens, blues, and reds (the white wire mesh is Gloss FB Al; where the mesh is gray, it lies below the surface of HFAP). As a landscape photographer shooting mainly Fujichrome Velvia 50 and Kodak E100VS, I want the largest color gamut possible. For my work, I will adopt Gloss FB Al for all of my B&W street photography, and continue to stick with HFAP for all color landscape imagery.

Looking at your maps, it is not clear to me that HFAP is actually a LARGER gamut than the Harman Gloss (HG) -- just curious if you calculated the total volumes of each? It appears that HFAP definitley is larger in the lower greens and cyans, but that HG is conversely larger in the mid to high greens, oranges and reds, and lower magentas -- blues are a toss-up depending on which side you look at. Moreover, the total differences I see in your maps appear a pretty small percentage of the total overall -- maybe not even really significant in a final print?

I don't see how you'll live with the inferior D-Max now that you know the HG kicks it -- I love deep blacks... However, if you perceive better overall fidelity for your color prints with HFAP, then that is reason enough. Personally, that is the only reason I choose certain papers over others -- has nothing to do with gamut maps, only with how the final prints look :)

Oh, and on resolution, you are correct, this paper is really sharp! (Another factor that surprised me.) Anyway, if you are looking for the sharpest prints possible, that would certainly be another reason to consider this new paper.

Cheers,

[Stephen Best]

Next, I then tried to compare the prints using my custom profile to the ABW mode. But here is the catch...with PK ink loaded, you cannot use WCRW in ABW (presumeably you would need to use MK, and I just can't see this optimizing Dmax with this paper). So I switched to Premium Glossy as the media type, the next best print driver setting as detemined using the Drycreek target. Using ABW with "neutral" toning, the tonal range and shadow detail was identical to what I could achieve with my custom profile. This is quite disparite from what I observed on Hahnemuhle PhotoRag 308 which clearly benefited from using the ABW with a bit of cooling to offset the warmth of this paper. Further comparison between the print derived using my custom profile (relative colorimetric rendering intent) to that using the ABW mode (neutral) revealed that the latter was just a "tad" more neutral, or shall we say, less warm. But you really really need to look hard under a 5000K viewing booth to pick this out. Finally, to my eye (and again, this is very subjective), the most neutral looking print was achieved using ABW mode with a bit of cooling. My wife disagrees with me on the cooling in ABW mode furnishing the most neutral print, and I'm sure if you showed a dozen other people, there would be no clear consensus.

One thing Epson doesn't mention is that ABW will tune the blacks to the colour of the media you've selected. A warmer media type (the one you've selected from the drop-down, not the actual media you're using) will get a warmer black than a cooler one (and vice versa). As more ink covers the paper at higher densities, the driver has to warm/cool the blacks to keep the tone even throughout the range. It's aiming for evenness of tone, not neutrality. If you're selecting a media type based solely on ink loading, you can always tweak the tone manually.

Also, when using ABW I find I get optimal results by running tests with a number of media type, black generation (usually Dark or Darker) and Color Density settings and going with the combination that gives the best measurements for DMax and shadow separation (without the ink bleeding). Often the best combination of media type and Color Density with ABW is different to what you'll use for optimal profiling/printing in RGB.

[JPlomley]

Looking at your maps, it is not clear that HFAP is actually a LARGER gamut than the Harman Gloss (HG). It appears that HFAP definitley is larger in the lower greens and blues, but that HG is larger in the mid to high greens, oranges and reds, and lower magentas.

I know Jack, it is difficult to get a sense of depth with these overlay's. You need to open them up in ColorSync and rotate them at various angles to appreciate the magnitude of offset between the gamuts. The HFAP "busts through" big time in the deep greens/blues/reds, while the HG just "marginally' nudges out the HFAP in the mid/lighter hues. So overall, it looks as though HFAP has the larger gamut. Of course, I will make test prints and view them in real world lighting conditions (which are not represented by a 5000K JUST viewing booth) to see how these gamut plots translate to real world color differences.

[Jack Flesher]

Of course, I will make test prints and view them in real world lighting conditions (which are not represented by a 5000K JUST viewing booth) to see how these gamut plots translate to real world color differences.

I agree totally that is what counts, but I still rely on the viewing booth to prevent being tricked...

[JPlomley]

Cheers Stephen for that feedback. The ideal comparison would have been to run the ABW/custom profile comparison with the same media type selected. That would mean going in and creating a custom profile using Premium Glossy media type, even though it does not match the same level of shadow detail as WCRW.

[Jack Flesher]

That would mean going in and creating a custom profile using Premium Glossy media type, even though it does not match the same level of shadow detail as WCRW.


FTR, I DID make my profile using Premium Glossy and also got the longest shadow detail on any paper I've seen so far -- and when coupled with the superior D-Max, that's pretty impressive...

I don't think it's safe to claim WCRW is superior on shadow detail with this particular paper until dedicated profiles are built and the resulting test targets are actually measured and compared -- and even then, the result is only valid for the printer used...

Jim and I compared prints directly -- he profiled for his 4800 using the recommended WCRW, I profiled for my 3800 using the recommended Premium Glossy -- and both are K3 ink printers. We felt the results were essentially identical -- excellent blacks and long shadow detail in both prints, but did not empirically measure standardized targets.

Cheers,

[JPlomley]

FTR, I DID make my profile using Premium Glossy

I expected that would be the better media type for the 3800 based on the enclosed technical documentation. It was WCRW for the 7800, which I confirmed using the Drycreek Printer Evaluation Target. Having used Hahnemuhle for years, you generally learn not to trust the manufacturers recommendations for print driver settings :) I need to see it for myself.

Thanks again Jack for bringing this paper to the communities attention. You just cost me $200 :eek:

[Stephen Best]

Cheers Stephen for that feedback. The ideal comparison would have been to run the ABW/custom profile comparison with the same media type selected.

Not really. You want to compare what you get in both with settings (media type etc) that give the best results in the respective modes. These are often different.

Also, while I find gamut plots interesting, they don't tell you much about how your prints will look ... unless you know where your image colours fall within that gamut. Gamut volume is pretty low down in the criteria I personally use to evaluate papers.

[JPlomley]

Not really. You want to compare what you get in both with settings (media type etc) that give the best results in the respective modes. These are often different.

I believe I have done that with the 7800. Jack with the 3800 is in the best position to compare ABW against his custom profile since he can run the same media type in both modalities; i.e. Premium Glossy, which is optimal for the 3800/HG combination.

[JPlomley]

Also, while I find gamut plots interesting, they don't tell you much about how your prints will look ... unless you know where your image colours fall within that gamut. Gamut volume is pretty low down in the criteria I personally use to evaluate papers.

Agreed wholeheartedly.

O.K. It's tomorrow afternoon in Australia, and just about supper time in California. It's almost bed time for this Canadian, so I'm outta here for now. I'll check back tomorrow and see where this goes.

[Jack Flesher]

Actually, we should clarify something here and now: choosing a manufacturer's paper setting for your profile substrate is only an approximation anyway -- though we're often lucky and the one we choose is close enough for our needs. But to do it right, you really need to start by building a custom ink linearization for the specific paper you are profiling, then print out three large (say 3000+ patch) targets using that linearization, then build three separate profiles from those targets, and finally average those three pofiles for a final... And then hope your manufacturer maintains VERY consistent ink formulations ;)

Cheers,

[JPlomley]

Why three separate profiles for those targets? Don't you mean one profile from three targets? Not sure I understand. As well, if you are using good profiling software with top drawer interpolation algorithms, there is little benefit in running over 1,000 patches. So far, no problem with consistency in Epson's inks. BUT, to be on the safe side I always purchase the 220 mL volumes to minimize the number of batch swaps I need to make.

[Jack Flesher]

You print three targets to read -- profile targets do NOT have a profile tagged to them. Once all three targets are read and three separate profiles have been generated (yes, they'll be close, except for minor fluctuations in ink flow, paper base and colorimeter readings) you average them to get a single, more uniform profile...

As for the benefits of using over 1000 patches, the gains are minimal for many colors, but nonetheless present and helpful for subtle gradations in things that human vision is especially sensitive to, like skintones...

Agree that Epson ink is -- or at least has been for me -- very consistent.

Cheers,

[JPlomley]

Of course targets have no profile tags. That would defeat the purpose. So all you are doing is creating an average profile based on repetitive printing of the same target to minimize any mechanical/process variability. What software are you using to average the A/B lookup tables, or are you just doing this in Excel?

[Jack Flesher]

Of course targets have no profile tags. That would defeat the purpose. So all you are doing is creating an average profile based on repetitive printing of the same target to minimize any mechanical/process variability. What software are you using to average the A/B lookup tables, or are you just doing this in Excel?

To be clear, I don't bother with doing that for myself -- it's not necessary for MY work. However I know folks who routinely do use it. The averaging feature is common in most high-end profiling software packages.

[MGraf]

Any thoughts on how off-gassing might compare with this paper against others known to have it (ie. RC, etc)?

Mark

[Marco]

And here's the Hahnemuehle "reply":

http://www.hahnemuehle.com/site/en/1717/pr-hahnemuehle-announces-genuine-fine-art-baryta-paper.html



Ciao!!
Marco

[JPlomley]

Paper Thickness from harman Technical Services:


Dear Sir,

Harman Gloss FB Al has an approximate paper thickness of 0.32mm


Kind Regards

Jason Thom
Product Technologist
Technical Services

[tim atherton]

And here's the Hahnemuehle "reply":

http://www.hahnemuehle.com/site/en/1717/pr-hahnemuehle-announces-genuine-fine-art-baryta-paper.html

Ciao!!
Marco

I have some samples on the way from Germany

So I should have both papers on hand soon to compare

[Marco]

Thank you Tim, I'd be very interested to hear your impressions!

btw, where did you purchase the Harman here in Europe?...I placed my order in the UK, and they asked me 25 &#163; for shipping :eek:, i.e. shipping will cost me more than the paper itself! :( ...



Ciao!!
Marco

[Ted Harris]

I just got some of the Matte, Warm Matte and Gloss. Ran three prints on the matte using the HP B9180 and was impressed. Will run some more tomorrow using the z3100 and then some on the Canon 6100 next week. Sometime in the next few weeks ill do a one-on-one comparison with the similar Crane and Inova papers. My client and I both really liked what we saw today.

[tim atherton]

I just got some of the Matte, Warm Matte and Gloss. Ran three prints on the matte using the HP B9180 and was impressed. Will run some more tomorrow using the z3100 and then some on the Canon 6100 next week. Sometime in the next few weeks ill do a one-on-one comparison with the similar Crane and Inova papers. My client and I both really liked what we saw today.

did you run you finger nail lightly over the matte...?

[geoffsm]

Has anyone tried printing on the back of this paper? Just wondering because sometimes I like to make very small batches of promo cards (really just small prints) that I send to friends and a few editors.

I printed my address, website and phone number on the back of a test print (this is on a 2400) with EEM as the paper type and using an Epson profile that looks like it's for EEM with photo black ink loaded. The results... well, it didn't smear, which is good, but there's some bleeding (owing to the lack of coating, I assume) which makes the text looks like it was printed with an old dot matrix printer from the 80s. So, not as bad as printing on the back of an RC-type paper, but not good enough to send out to anyone.

Anyone have any tips on what paper type and maybe ink load might yield crisper text printing on the back of Harman FB AL with Photo Black (not willing to change to matte black just to do this, even if it would produce better results)?

Thanks,
--Geoff

[Ben R]

Would it be worth printing on labels and sticking them on the back of the photos? Especially if the surface is sensitive I would imagine that feeding it back through with the printed side the wrong way round would be rather nerve wracking?

[Sylvester Graham]

You could also have a custom stamp made.

[geoffsm]

Thanks, both good ideas. For what it's worth, I didn't notice anything bad on the test print from having been fed back through print side down. I'd let this one dry for a couple days. On another test print, where I'd printed 6-up square images with different settings to compare, I did notice pinwheel roller marks on the print, which I think can be put down to not allowing enough drying time (I've got "thick paper" checked in the printer driver).

[Stephen Best]

I just today got a hold of this paper, and it definitely seems like a step up from the lustre/rag papers I've used in the past for B&W. I spent half a day doing media tests and here's the measured output results for my Epson 4800 (printing a grayscale 51-step wedge with a L* gamma).

Firstly with Harman's recommended media type for this printer of Watercolor - Radiant White, 1440dpi in RGB mode using the profile available for download:

6606

Secondly, ABW with a media type of Premium Luster 260, 2880dpi, Darker tone curve and a custom grayscale profile from QTR-Create-ICC:

6607

As predicted, the Dmax increased from 2.1 to 2.5 with ABW, the tone curve for the latter is more linear and the blacks show an even progression from paper white to neutral black.

If anyone has an Epson 4800/7800/9800 they can use the linearization profile I created below. Use with Perceptual rendering in conjunction with the ABW settings I outlined.

6608

[Greg Lockrey]

Not to change the subject too much but Epson now has a similar paper coming out. http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/exhibition-fiber.shtml

[Jack Flesher]

Hi Greg:

At current count there are four new FB papers claiming to be "Silver-Gelatin-like," three of which are Baryta based; the Epson is not Baryta but apparently looks a lot like Harman only a lot brighter white base.

Personally I have not tested the three latest entries, since Harman, the paper I started this thread over, is just so darn good --- excellent in fact, and enough so I feel no need (or desire) to search any further. :)

Cheers,

[Greg Lockrey]

Yes it is nice paper. I ordered the 13x19 when I first leaarned of the paper and recieved it in about 3 days. Once I tested it, I ordered the 17x25". Well that took a lot longer, just got it today. I will give the Epson a go when it comes into stock. I've been very satistfied with their papers. The idea that it looks like Kodak F before the ferrite sheen appeals to me.

[Don Hutton]

Last weekend, I finally managed to get my hands on some of the Harman Gloss. I've been doing some tests this week with a custom profile on my 3800 and in my opinion, this is without doubt, as close as I have ever seen an inkjet print get to a traditional fiber silver gelatin print.

Today I showed some people an inkjet print on the Harman Gloss together with the same print made on selenium toned Ilford Glossy multigrade FB optically in the darkroom. The feel of the prints is very close, the surface is very close and tonality etc. was a wash. The injet print had a little more apparent sharpness, and the selenium toning had caused the wet print to move slightly from dead neutral (it had 10 minutes in 1:20 KRST - about 5 would have been better). I'm blown away by how similar the final prints are. Interestingly, it appears that the ink penetrates this paper quite far when printing - the prints are quite floppy when they come out the printer and the paper curl in fact reverses when wet (sort of bulges out). After they have dryed down, the resulting prints have excellent depth, sharpness and just about everything which most folks value in traditional fiber based silver gelatin prints.

[Chris Strobel]

Ok you guys are killing me.I'm about to dump the MK out of my 4800 to give this a try.Can I use ABW mode with this, or do I need to buy a custom profile.I have no profiling equipment and have used only ABW mode since I've had my 4800.I've never used anything but mat papers so I'm a little nervous here.

[Greg Lockrey]

Ok you guys are killing me.I'm about to dump the MK out of my 4800 to give this a try.Can I use ABW mode with this, or do I need to buy a custom profile.I have no profiling equipment and have used only ABW mode since I've had my 4800.I've never used anything but mat papers so I'm a little nervous here.

Yes, ABW is excellent. Too bad you don't have a 3800 as a backup.;)

[Jack Flesher]

Ok you guys are killing me.I'm about to dump the MK out of my 4800 to give this a try.Can I use ABW mode with this, or do I need to buy a custom profile.I have no profiling equipment and have used only ABW mode since I've had my 4800.I've never used anything but mat papers so I'm a little nervous here.

You can use ABW, but you don't get WYSIWYG like you do with a good profile. You'll find "tests" on the web that show AWB delivers higher D-Max, but IMO that test was flawed --- with good profiles, Jim Collum and I both got 2.4 using a color profile on the B&W image. Jim got it on his 4800 using the Watercolor RW paper base, I got it on my 3800 using the Premium Gloss paper base.

Cheers,

[Jack Flesher]

Last weekend, I finally managed to get my hands on some of the Harman Gloss. I've been doing some tests this week with a custom profile on my 3800 and in my opinion, this is without doubt, as close as I have ever seen an inkjet print get to a traditional fiber silver gelatin print.

Today I showed some people an inkjet print on the Harman Gloss together with the same print made on selenium toned Ilford Glossy multigrade FB optically in the darkroom. The feel of the prints is very close, the surface is very close and tonality etc. was a wash. The injet print had a little more apparent sharpness, and the selenium toning had caused the wet print to move slightly from dead neutral (it had 10 minutes in 1:20 KRST - about 5 would have been better). I'm blown away by how similar the final prints are. Interestingly, it appears that the ink penetrates this paper quite far when printing - the prints are quite floppy when they come out the printer and the paper curl in fact reverses when wet (sort of bulges out). After they have dryed down, the resulting prints have excellent depth, sharpness and just about everything which most folks value in traditional fiber based silver gelatin prints.

Don, thanks for this objective comparison! I know you are a picky traditional wet printer, so coming from you this is HUGE praise for this new paper.

Cheers,

[Doug Fisher]

I was one of the people lucky enough to see Don H.'s prints today. The paper is really, really nice (and so were Don's images on the paper!). Don had some luster surface paper for comparsion and I definitely preferred the Harmon. It has the nicest surface I have seen so far in terms of not being too glossy and not have the luster-like stipple.

Hopefully there will be competition in this category and it will drive the prices down!

Doug
---
www.BetterScanning.com

[Tyler Boley]

good color managed wysisyg ABW driver output is viable and easy with QTR's "createICC profile".
Tyler

[D. Bryant]

I was one of the people lucky enough to see Don H.'s prints today. The paper is really, really nice (and so were Don's images on the paper!). Don had some luster surface paper for comparsion and I definitely preferred the Harmon. It has the nicest surface I have seen so far in terms of not being too glossy and not have the luster-like stipple.

Hopefully there will be competition in this category and it will drive the prices down!

Doug
---
www.BetterScanning.com
I will echo Dougs comments about the prints that Don H. showed us today. I was very very impressed. IMO, it's the best version of these new generation papers that I've seen. Of course it didn't hurt looking at Don's work either. I was really impresed when comparing a print made on Ilford MGIV and looking at the same image printed on the new Harmon FB.

And the color prints were just as impressive!

Don Bryant

[Ken Allen]

the alumina likely refers to the material used to create the microceramic coating. Alumina is used in many of the pigment ink compatible papers. We usually dont know e actly which ones use what materials because the manufactures protect that information.
Ill have to check this paper out but im skeptical that its any better than the crane museo silver rag. I tested so many and most have some mfg problem that keeps me from using them. Others seem to be good but not enough for me to switch.
Can you provide a comparison to crane museo silver rag?
best,
ken Allen

[Remigius]

Ken,

While not being able to provide some "scientific" comparison between the teo (CMSR and HFG), I have recently printed some bw photos on both papers. My impressions:

CMSR: not completely glossy, has some texture, slightly warm overall tone, good contrast/density, strong, almost carton like paper weight
HFG: very glossy (and thus very sensitive to fingerprints!), no texture, very white, high denstiy, paper weight feels a bit less than the CMSR

In both cases, the photos look very crisp, maybe a little crisper on the HFG (maybe a tad more density). I have used the factory profile for the HFG on the 3800 (which seems to be excellent), but only ABW with the "premium luster" paper setting for the CMSR (maybe there's room for improvement - I'll try a factory profile next time). Now for me it becomes really difficult, as both papers have their charm. The look is clearly different. While HFG seems to come close to a traditional glossy silver fiber print, CMSR imho establishes its own class that cannot be compared to other papers I have seen (which admittedly aren't that many, I'm afraid). All in all I'm very undecided on which paper to use in the long term.

Cheers, Remigius.

[gr82bart]

Hmmm ... maybe it's just me, but I find it a bit flawed to generalize this paper as digital silver gelatin (actually it should be digital gelatin silver, but I'll leave that to grammar/spelling fascists with OCD :p ). To me, true digital silver gelatin prints are those that are printed on a Lambda or Lightjet using paper such as Ilford new Digital Fibre Base (I don't know what it's called), Fuji Crystal Archive, Kodak whatever it's called, etc... and developed in chemicals. You know, like the 'old' way.

Sorry folks, inkjets are a medium (dye sublimation, etc...) all on it's own and are not silver gelatin at all. The way I see it, if you're making an inkjet, then be proud of it and call it what it is - an inkjet (or glicee if you're a pretentious marketing type ... oops, let that one slip).

OK, rant over, nothing more to see here, back to the original thread. :rolleyes:

Regards, Art. (Notice my use of emocons for the sarcastically challenged?)

[Greg Lockrey]

Hmmm ... maybe it's just me, but I find it a bit flawed to generalize this paper as digital silver gelatin (actually it should be digital gelatin silver, but I'll leave that to grammar/spelling fascists with OCD :p ). To me, true digital silver gelatin prints are those that are printed on a Lambda or Lightjet using paper such as Ilford new Digital Fibre Base (I don't know what it's called), Fuji Crystal Archive, Kodak whatever it's called, etc... and developed in chemicals. You know, like the 'old' way.

Sorry folks, inkjets are a medium (dye sublimation, etc...) all on it's own and are not silver gelatin at all. The way I see it, if you're making an inkjet, then be proud of it and call it what it is - an inkjet (or glicee if you're a pretentious marketing type ... oops, let that one slip).

OK, rant over, nothing more to see here, back to the original thread. :rolleyes:

Regards, Art. (Notice my use of emocons for the sarcastically challenged?)

You have a point. It's not really digital silver gelatin, but merely looks similar to silver gelatin.

Inkjet and Proud. ;)

[Don Hutton]

Hmmm ... maybe it's just me, but I find it a bit flawed to generalize this paper as digital silver gelatin (actually it should be digital gelatin silver, but I'll leave that to grammar/spelling fascists with OCD :p ). To me, true digital silver gelatin prints are those that are printed on a Lambda or Lightjet using paper such as Ilford new Digital Fibre Base (I don't know what it's called), Fuji Crystal Archive, Kodak whatever it's called, etc... and developed in chemicals. You know, like the 'old' way.

Sorry folks, inkjets are a medium (dye sublimation, etc...) all on it's own and are not silver gelatin at all. The way I see it, if you're making an inkjet, then be proud of it and call it what it is - an inkjet (or glicee if you're a pretentious marketing type ... oops, let that one slip).

OK, rant over, nothing more to see here, back to the original thread. :rolleyes:

Regards, Art. (Notice my use of emocons for the sarcastically challenged?)The point you're choosing to ignore, is that a lot of folks are interested in making B&W inkjet prints which feel and resemble traditional wet fiber prints. Until now, IMO, this has not been possible - it's certainly been possible to make excellent (outstanding) B&W prints with an inkjet, but we haven't, until now seen a combination of materials which would allow one to produce prints which have that same look and feel as traditional wet process fiber based prints. This Harman paper has, in my opinion, changed that. It isn't silver gelatin - it's ink. No one suggested otherwise.

[gr82bart]

The point you're choosing to ignore, is that a lot of folks are interested in making B&W inkjet prints which feel and resemble traditional wet fiber prints. No Don, I'm definitely not choosing to ignore it. Quite the opposite.

Regards, Art.

[tim atherton]

I quite like the new Ilford Paper. It's very good. It's main weakness is that it's very susceptible to scratching and surface damage, especially lots of little micro scratches.

It's much less tough than the Crane Silver Rag, which has a very tough surface.

I still really like the Crane btw - not quite as "photographic paper" looking, but very good - almost a unique look in its own right. And I've always liked slightly warmer papers for a lot of stuff so that doesn't bother me.

Both are good. Blacks are pretty close. The Ilford may be a touch sharper (but both are pretty darned sharp). Slightly different surfaces. Possibly (??) better longevity of the subsrtate on the Crane - but no real tests out yet - and no OBA's to fade on the Crane either.

[Jack Flesher]

It's main weakness is that it's very susceptible to scratching and surface damage, especially lots of little micro scratches.

Sorry Tim, but I just don't see this. Not picking on you because I have heard a few others report the same thing and just trying to get to the bottom of it. My prints have proven to be VERY durable. I have shown them to dozens of folks who have handled them normally and none of them exhibit any of this supposed fragility other folks are claiming. In fact, they still look like they did the day I printed them for the most part. Makes me wonder if there is a difference between the inks? All of mine have been printed with Epson K3 inks --- what printer are you using?


Cheers,

[Peter Langham]

Tim,

Are you refering to the Harman paper or the new Ilford barayta paper?
(this is where it is going to get confusing!)
Peter

[tim atherton]

I'm referring to the Harman Inkjet Gloss FB AL

(yes, I'm using Epson K3 inks) Some I've sprayed with Print Shield to remove differential, some I just left.

But just from them laying around mixed with other prints and papers, several are now showing micro scratches.

and it just takes a corner of one print to rub across another to scratch the surface, never mind a finger nail. The Crane, by comparison, seems as tough as old boots

I also did the postcard test with this and sent it through the mail (I frequently do inkjet promo postcards). It didn't fare very well. By comparison the Crane Silver Rag came through just fine

[Jack Flesher]

I'm referring to the Harman Inkjet Gloss FB AL



Yep, me too and no issues yet. Weird.

[Ben R]

Humidity?

[Jack Flesher]

So I did a little experiment and Tim, you are correct... Not that I normally treat prints this fashion, but I took my prints out of the portfolio case and dropped them in an empty paper box with no interleaving, sat it sideways in the car and drove around like that for two days. The jostling of paper against box did impart some fine scratches in the surface of the print, that while not obvious can be seen by holding the print at an extreme angle.

Cheers,

[tim atherton]

So I did a little experiment and Tim, you are correct... Not that I normally treat prints this fashion, but I took my prints out of the portfolio case and dropped them in an empty paper box with no interleaving, sat it sideways in the car and drove around like that for two days. The jostling of paper against box did impart some fine scratches in the surface of the print, that while not obvious can be seen by holding the print at an extreme angle.

Cheers,

Hi Jack,

I usually treat my prints fairly carefully, but most of these were "just" test prints, playing around with different settings etc. So they tended to sit around on my desk and get handled a bit less carefully.

The main thing being that other similar papers - especially the Silver Rag, which I use a lot, seem quite a bit tougher in this aspect

[bob carnie]

I am going to test this new ink jet paper and compare it to the Harmon Fibre Paper that I am printing on my Lambda.
I will post on this thread some observations of the two media.
I have just been so damm busy lately, but we are putting an 7600 right beside the lambda to start comparing files on inkjet to wet prints from files as we work daily with clients permission of course.

[gr82bart]

I am going to test this new ink jet paper and compare it to the Harmon Fibre Paper that I am printing on my Lambda.Bob's work, as many of you know, is second to none. If you get a chance to see this stuff in person - the Lambda prints that is - you will be blown away.

Regards, Art.

[Doug Dolde]

Jack, It's Harman not Harmon...says so right on the box. I just made a few test prints and while I can say it is heads and shoulders better than Crane Museo Silver Rag, I am getting a little gloss differential on one particular image. This is printing in color not black and white on an Epson 3800.

I think the new Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta will be interesting to try as well.

[Doug Dolde]

Funny but after 4 or 5 hours drying the gloss differential or whatever it was seems to have disappeared.

[fstop]

Still having issues getting the 24" rolls of this stuff but picked up a box of Super B and letter and am having a field day! Printed some b/w images taken on my way to the LF Conference this summer and I must say I'm quite impressed. AND I don't have to throw them in a mounting press to flatten them! BONUS!

[tim atherton]

This came to my inbox last week

Harman Gloss


Booksmart Studio would like to let you know that we now have the Harmon FB
Al Gloss rolls in stock. We currently have a limited selection of 17", 24",
& 44" rolls. We are hoping this initial shipment will lead to normal
stocking levels in a week or two.
http://www.booksmartstudio.com/store


might want to see if they have any left

[Ted Harris]

Update on Harman Gloss on the Z3100 ...

I just profiled the paper and made a print. I set the profile for heavyweight paper to guard against and roller impressions. The print is lovely. I am very impressed with the richness of the blacks and the tonal range of the paper. I may be losing a few of the highlights in the model's hair but that is it and I think I can adjust for it. There is no bronzing, no metamerism and no gloss differential. I printed with the Gloss Enhancer on.

[jetcode]

Update on Harman Gloss on the Z3100 ...

There is no bronzing, no metamerism and no gloss differential. I printed with the Gloss Enhancer on.

That's a really nice image Ted. I take it the Z3100 is a color printer?

[Ed Richards]

Ted,

Try it with the gloss enhancer off. I am getting perfect prints on the Epson 3800 in ABW mode. (Even better than with Imageprint.) I decided that the slight green tint in the paper is not a problem as long as you keep any bright white or warm paper off the same table with the Harman prints.:-)

[Ted Harris]

Hi Joe,

Thanks. A lot of credit to a superb model too. As for the printer. The HP Z3100, like all of the modern wide format photo printers from HP, Canon and Epson, is a color printer. In this instance, a 12 ink printer. Of course, you can dedicate a printer to printing black and white only using something like the Cone inks. I don;t find that to be necessary when running a printer with a sophisticated RIP that allows you to print with the black inks only (as the Z3100 ps does). The print I am discussing was printed with the black inks only.

[Kirk Gittings]

Ed what does this mean. In what way are the Epson ABW prints better? With ImagePrint are you using this profile for the Harman Gloss?? Just curious.

ep38pk_grayHMFBGL_1440.icm