Mac Experts-Diagnosis needed

[matthew blais]

My last effort before sending my G4 Power PC in..

Symptoms: Would not boot up from either of two internal Hard drives. Just the Apple and the clock under which kept spinning.

It did boot up off the external which had the OS installed. Then, that did not work.
Took to Apple "Genius Bar" and the booted up off their 'puter, ran disk utilities, etc (as I had) then tried to boot up off my two internals-same problem.

They suggested a corrupt OS on all drives and to reformat drive/clean install.
I took out the two internal drives, installed a new internal 500 gig, OSX 9.3.3 installed fine. Booted up-same thing...spinning clock under the apple. Like the energizer bunny it just kept going and going and going...

So next I took out one of the two 1 gig ram chips (left the one in the first slot) rebooted-no change. I replaced t
he one ram chip with one I took out, rebooted, no change.

Next thing I was told to try is take out the 2906 card I have installed and try a reboot
which I have not done yet.
After that or even before, what do you wizzards suggest?

Stats: Mac G4 Power PC dual 1.47 ghz processors. The last G4 made I believe.
Firewire 800/400

It also would not recognize the airport extreme card I installed-if'n it gets back to working, any thoughts on that?

To add insult to injury, this laptop took a hard drive dump last week as well. Managed to copy files off when holding upside down which was the only position the drive would boot from. Installed new internal, reloaded and now I have one working 'puter.

Thanks in advance. No Anti-mac or "get a pc" comments please...:o :o

Matt

[Marko]

Thanks in advance. No Anti-mac or "get a pc" comments please...:o :o

How about "Get a new Mac"? :) It sounds like controller and/or motherboard problem to me. Since it's been more than 3 years since that Mac was new, your AppleCare would have expired by now even if you had one. So, while it may be possible to repair, you might be better off to just get a new one. It will cost you a bit more, but the improvement will be worth it, IMO.

On the side note, if I were you, I'd buy external disk enclosures for those disks you have and turn them into external FireWire drives and use them for less than critical storage for at least a few months or until you're fairly certain nothing's wrong with the drives themselves.

[Photomax]

Apple does not make hard drives so the usual debate is not worth discussing.
If you own multiple older Macs then get a copy of Discwarrior. Drives are delicate instruments that spin at high speed. They just poop out after a while. Get Smart Reporter which is a handy little Finder utility that gives a graphic color report on the condition of your drive: a must for Powerbooks etc

I like to use multiple drives with the OS and apps on one drive and all my Files on another drive. I run a mirrored drive to backup my Files drive. Super Duper is a good backup system.

What kind of drives are you using? I think OS X has requirements. This might be a motherboard issue. Still, Discwarrior is worth the $100 to have. In the end I would not spend a lot of money on an old G4 system though...

[JohnnyV]

I would think the Mac Geniuses would have zapped the pram, checked the battery and reset the pram via the Cuda/PMU button?

Have you Zapped the Pram?

How to Zap Pram from http://www.techsurvivors.net/faqs/pram_how.html:

“The Mac OS provides a procedure to do this at boot time. Reboot, then as soon as you hear the startup 'bong', hold down these four keys: Command-Option-P-R. It will bong again. And again. Continue to hold down these four keys until it has 'bonged' a total of three times (the initial startup bong and two more after you hold down those four keys).

Now your PRAM is cleaned out and uncorrupted, and the PRAM values are restored to their factory defaults.”

Also there is a good chance the computer's battery is dead. If the zapping pram doesn’t work try replacing battery and zap pram again...

Here's link to resetting using the Cuda/PMU button:

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=86760

On bottom of page is a link to images for your G4.

[Henry Ambrose]

Take out everything that didn't ship in the machine like your scsi card you mentioned and the airport you just put in. Got the old memory? Put that back in place of whats there now.

Remove the processors and re-seat. Some have resets on the processor. Read up about this at Apple's support pages.

After all the above, try to boot it.

Will it run in Firewire disk mode when attached to another Mac?
If so then prod and poke it with disk utility while in FW mode.

If its still dead, its hardware, so try these guys:

http://www.dttservice.com/

I have not bought anything from them for a while but they used to have MB and power supplies pretty reasonable. They would be a likely choice for repair. Apple is liable to so expensive your head will spin around.

Good luck.

[Jack Flesher]

No Anti-mac or "get a pc" comments please...:o :o



Why is it that Mac guys *ALWAYS* add this comment when posting on issues with their machines, but when somebody posts a PC issue, they are the first to say, "Get a Mac!" :D

Seriously, computer issues totally suck regardless of machine, so best of luck in getting it fixed soon!

Cheers,

[matthew blais]

I did Pram, also opened case and removed battery and pressed Cudo biutton for abouot 20-30 seconds.

The G4 is a beautiful machine...yes it's "old" byputer standards, but in lieu of spending 1500-1700 on a new iMac, which is the route I'd go, am trying to revive it.

I did remove the two drives and bought external cases for them to use as storage..

I'm unsure of how to remove and replace processor chips Henry (??)
I'm pretty sure the original memory chips are gone...then again, I think it came with the one 1 gig and I added the second.

I'll try the firewire but the disk is new and OSX installed fine...anything to avoid apple repair.

Jack Jack Jack...what can I say? :)

[Ted Harris]

It's been a long time since I had a G4 in front of me but .... assuming my memory is correct and I am pretty sure it is ..... there is a system reseet button on the motherboard. The motherboard is somewhere in the upper right of the machine and the reset button is a little green button that will push with a definite "push feel" to it. That should do the job if the machine is salvagable.

[Henry Ambrose]

Matthew,

Check around at Apple support or maybe a supplier of cpu upgrades for info on re-seating your processors. I've not had your exact machine apart. My old G4 is much older and they changed. But basically you can unplug and replug like memory chips. Yours may be paired on a daughter card that can unplug. I don't know for sure.

If it started from the install CD when you installed OSX on the 500GB drive then its -maybe- not totally dead. If you can't do anything else contact the DT&T guys and ask them what's going on.

That G4 isn't that bad a machine so if you can fix it for a couple hundred, you saved yourself some big bucks. And it'll always be good to run a scanner or be your back up machine for next time things go kaput.

[matthew blais]

Thanks for all the input.

I'll try a few more things than whip out the plastic if all fails...

[fred arnold]

That sounds disturbingly like my iBook, which in the end apparently has a bad hd controller, which means the logic board is toast. Run your system diagnostic disk (it's either a separate disk, or on one of the OSX install disks), and do the extended test. Unfortunately, a bad HD and controller will both cough up a '2STF-lots-of-verbiage' error, but since you've already tried adding another drive, unless you have three bad hd from different batche, this will probably mean the disk controller.

Sorry to say, unless a new battery on the logic board fixes the issue, it sounds like the machine is ready to be pushing up daisies.

[JW Dewdney]

It sounds like you got SOME good advice. I'd have dumped the SCSI card and all your ram first. That's generally the way to go about it. I wouldn't touch the processor. I'd put in some 'known' good ram first though. But hitting the PRAM and the CUDA switch is usually de rigeur with some of these issues. Any other PCI cards you might have in there which are NOT vital to your computer should also be excised. Disconnect EVERYTHING (!!) that's not absoulutely vital. Can you tell us which model it is? The Quicksilver model is VERY prone to logic board failures.

Clearly the processor is fine. If you get the 'bong' on startup - your ram is probably fine. Did u do a diagnostic on startup? That's always an option that can sometimes be telling. Clearly- the machine is waiting for an 'okay' from a certain component (can even be a DSL box) that it's not getting. In these cases it can be very very useful to have a second (similar) machine to swap components out against and figure out which is faulty through trial and error.

At any rate - if you get really stuck - I'd probably recommend posting your info on the forum at macgurus.com - there's an EXCELLENT tech forum there and some people who REALLY know what they're talking about.

You really have to be very systematic with these things though - sometimes it can be something pretty minor that's impossible to diagnose because you're being too hurried about trying to get a reboot happening successfully.

[JW Dewdney]

Here are some links. Hope these help.


http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=106464#symp1
http://home.iprimus.com.au/swoz/rustle_trouble2.html
http://www.macfixitforums.com/php/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=tiger
http://www.apple.com/support/mac101/help/
http://www.macgurus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18533

[JW Dewdney]

also note: if you swap or remove ram - this is when hitting the CUDA switch is a MUST! (generally for most low-level hardware changes). Otherwise it won't do much. Certain actions are only useful in conjuction with certain hardware/software changes.

[JohnnyV]

So did you check the battery to see if it was dead or replace the battery with a new one?

[Brian Ellis]

Why is it that Mac guys *ALWAYS* add this comment when posting on issues with their machines, but when somebody posts a PC issue, they are the first to say, "Get a Mac!" . . . :D


Cheers,

I was thinking the same thing when I saw the last line of this message. A few weeks ago someone asked a bunch of questions relating to replacing or repairing his PC and immediately 6 or 7 people posted messages saying "Get a Mac!" Then, believe it or not, he posted a message saying he did! I figured it was a shame he wasn't a woman, he would have been very popular. : - )

[JW Dewdney]

It's funny how people never seem to chime in with "get a PC", huh?

[Wayne Crider]

Not that this applies to towers etc, but there was a manufacturing problem involving chips on the logic board of notebooks not making contact after a period of time, (corrosion I guess?), and causing essentially the same problem. The iBook also had a problem with the video chip which created a quick fix using a clamp of all things at a certain point on the book. Whatever works. I just went thru a problem with a G4 Powerbook about 8 weeks ago and the logic board was toast necessitating a new computer. You might cruise the forum over at www.ifixit.com for similar complaints as yours. It's a great site for Mac's and DIY repairs.

[Ken Lee]

None of these vendors is perfect. Like car manufacturers, I doubt that any of them design the equipment to last forever. If I were Apple, I would do what BMW does: offer free service for some predetermined duration of time.

I always back up my critical files to a separate drive, once a week, or sooner.

[matthew blais]

I do get a "pong" at startup..
Now the Scuzzi is out, the airport card out...
Both ram chips back in and I again hit the cudo button after putting ram back in.

Still hanging with the apple and clock working...

Did PRAM on keyboard again and at least the install disk came up. Perhaps because I installed my laptop (later) version initially could have been a problem, so now I'm erasing and installing the version that came with this machine.

I'll get back to you.

Many thanks for all the input.

[matthew blais]

Well...Once the original OSX (10.2.3) was installed, and without scuzzi adaptor card and airport card it booted up.

I reinstalled the scuzzi and airport cards and got the grey kernal crash screen.

Took out the cards (again) and rebooted, installed the scuzzi drivers, shut down and reinstalled the scuzzi card and it's fine. So far...

I'll tempt adding the airport card back, but before the great crash, the 'puter would not recognize it anyway. It's there but it wasn't.

Am now upgrading the OS to the panther version I have (10.3.9) and see what happens.

I've no idea what actually caused all this, and if it turns out to be the damn airport card I'd be surprised..(not)

Now several hours to reinstall all my software and subsequent upgrade packages...
I may make a buck this week..

Thanks again for all the suggestions.

Matt

[JohnnyV]

Great you found the problem. What is the oldest OS the airport card will run under?

[JW Dewdney]

Well... he didn't find the 'problem' but he DID find the solution...! Sometime systems can become a bit unstable just because of a random error. The very biggest culprits under OSX are permissions/preferences. If a small but critical directory gets messed up it can cause a WORLD of hurt. Luckily - in Matthew's case it didn't take a whole lot to fix. The very BEST way to have resolved his problem would have been to pop the cards out and restart in debug mode and repair the permissions. Though I guess just popping the cards out and hitting the CUDA would have probably done it from the sounds of it.

[Jeffrey Sipress]

It's ALWAYS a good idea to run Disk Warrior on all drives periodically.

As a macfanatic, I don't really hate peecees. It's windoze that I detest.

[Ken Lee]

I have read that OS X doesn't ship with utilities that are typically needed by Windows users - such as disk defragmentation - since the underlying OS does a better job with such matters, on its own.

Is that not true ?

[JW Dewdney]

I have read that OS X doesn't ship with utilities that are typically needed by Windows users - such as disk defragmentation - since the underlying OS does a better job with such matters, on its own.

Is that not true ?

This should help... at least in terms of explaining the fragmentation issue.
http://www.itworld.com/Comp/3380/nls_unixfrag040929/index.html

[matthew blais]

What is the oldest OS the airport card will run under?

I don't think it's system but rather processor/computer. Mine is the last G4 made and the only G4 (I believe) that will take an airport extreme card.
Previous models will run the basic airport.

I tried cudo and pram and about all else before removing/replacing scuzzi...

I haven't tried putting the airport card back in yet..

All software installed and moving files around to clean up.

I think (in part) because I had three drives and all three were filled to 95% capacity could have added to problems...

I added 850 gigs so am good for awhile.

I've been down for days mainly getting info off the two internals and setting up externals/cleaning up files...

Why do we save some of this stuff???

What is recommended auto back-up software?

Thanks

Matt

Apple dudes at store said the mac OS "automatically" fixes drive problems on its own...cycles when it's left on or boot up.

Disk utility is all they recommend. FWIW

[Brian Ellis]

It's funny how people never seem to chime in with "get a PC", huh?


Not when the person posting the original message specifically asks that we not do so, or did you miss the last line of the original question here? You might also scroll up a ways and see Jack's message and mine. : - )

[Henry Ambrose]

"I think (in part) because I had three drives and all three were filled to 95% capacity could have added to problems..."

Oh man! don't do that ever again!

When you install your software put the system and your main apps on one drive and then leave that drive mostly empty and keep it that way - no more than 50%-60% full - never, ever, no matter what. Use the other internal for your working files and move them off by job or project as it is finished to your external drives. No auto back up.

And do the following for a clean running Mac:

Get MacJanitor (or similar free programs) and run it often. Unless you leave your machine running 24/7 its not doing its housekeeping work. MacJanitor makes the auto scheduled housekeeping tasks happen which won't get done if you turn it off at night. (you should turn it off at night, IMO) Use Disk Utility to check and repair permissions every couple of weeks or anytime you install something. Disk Warrior would definitely be worth having and running every so often. OSX is rock solid but you have to give it a chance.

[Paul Fitzgerald]

Ken,

"I have read that OS X doesn't ship with utilities that are typically needed by Windows users - such as disk defragmentation - since the underlying OS does a better job with such matters, on its own.

Is that not true ?"

Not to light anyone's hair on fire, the short answer is no.

The default install of any version of Windows is designed to degrade over time so you buy a new computer. It is very easy to fix and well worth the effort, a grand total of 4 min.

Reset the virtual memory size ( set min. and max. to the same size (1.5X installed ram)) and reboot. It's even better to put the swap file in the first partition on a second hdd. This works well on all versions of Windows from Win3.11 thru XP Pro x64. Now Windows no longer drops packets of binary junk all over the hard-drive, no more system slow down, only check to defrag every 90 days or longer.:eek:

[matthew blais]

I learned Henry..the good thing (silver lining) is I finally put out the $$ for some externals..long overdue I know.

[JW Dewdney]

Not when the person posting the original message specifically asks that we not do so, or did you miss the last line of the original question here? You might also scroll up a ways and see Jack's message and mine. : - )

I was just making a general observation. It had nothing to do with this thread specifically. i.e. - I wasn't trying to 'insinuate' anything.

[JW Dewdney]

This should help... at least in terms of explaining the fragmentation issue.
http://www.itworld.com/Comp/3380/nls_unixfrag040929/index.html

In case anyone didn't quite 'get it' - this explains why UNIX file systems don't fall into a state where they don't NEED to be 'defragmented'. Mac OSX is Berkeley (BSD) UNIX.

[JohnnyV]

Henry wrote> Get MacJanitor and Diskwarrior.

X2!

I use both and also I use AppleJack - a script that is run at startup. If you had that installed it might have helped...but with 95% disk space filled your Mac is a "dead man walking".

AppleJack:

http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/19596

[matthew blais]

Man oh man...after getting back up and running, there's been constant problems...

It boots up but something is always happening...the mouse (cursor) sometimes is not there, reboot...then there.
Other times the software (In Design) will just quit..several times doing a "save as" for the file. I reinstalled...It also happened with Photoshop a couple times, and there's been a few Kernel crashes.

Sometimes after sleep mode I don't get a screen at all...

Is it the processors/motherboard something besides software?

It's the same software I had running on it for a few years, with minor upgrades.

I've run disk utility every day since I revamped the HD and got back running.
So...I'm not looking to spend $$ on a new one if this is OS problem (10.3.3), but I'm not getting much done with all the re-starts.

So what's your opinion?

Thanks in advance,
Matt

[alanps]

I am a big Mac user (work and leisure) I learned long back that when something goes seriously wrong, you take it to the Apple Store and get them to fix it.

Don't mean to be unhelpful but its better to pay them than try yourself. On a couple of occasions they have fixed for free - a couple of times over the years I have paid - and once they gave me the sad news that there was no hope.

I love Apple and would never go back to PC - but we are talking machinery and electronics here - things will break and burn out over time....

I now have the Apple care for my Mac's and this has proven to be a good investment..