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kalvino67
31-Aug-2007, 01:36
Hi all,

Well I'm brand new to LF but I have been doing some reading over the last couple of months, both here and recommended LF books.

Based on my research, a great LF camera for the 75mm -210mm lens range is the Arca Swiss Field...BUT...I can't afford it!

I am starting from scratch and with lenses, meter, tripod, film, darkroom equipment etc..the budget is rapidly diminishing and I am considering spending money on good glass.

So, which of the cameras below with a standard bellows (prefer not to change to a bag bellows) can best focus a 75mm Rodenstock Grandagon-N f4.5 at close range?

Shen Hao HZX-45 IIA
Toho
Tachihara
Wista DXIII

I'm assuming all of the above have no problems with a 210mm lens. My other lens will be a 150mm.

I will be photographing mainly landscapes (alot of coastal shots) as well as some street architecture.

One additional question...which would be easier to use in an urban environment.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Cheers,

Kalvin

Thomas Greutmann
31-Aug-2007, 02:41
I can only speak for the Wista. I am using a Wista DX (not DXIII, but they are similar) with a 65mm Schneider Super Angulon. Mostly landscapes. Focusing is no problem, but movements (especially shift and rise/fall) are limited due to the bellows. With a 75mm lens it should be better. With a 90mm the Wista works very well, enough movement. The 75mm will be somewhere in between 65 and 90.

Tachihara and Shen-Hao should work in similar ways, I guess. The cameras are somewhat similar in design.

Greetings, Thomas

Matus Kalisky
31-Aug-2007, 04:38
Hi, you will find a lot of info on the cameras you hve mentined on this forum.

I personaly use Tachihara for cca 1 year and am quite happy with it. I can not comment on 75mm lens but have heard that it should not be a problem, although recessed lens board would be probably a good idea. The bellows are quite soft.

Remember - the closer you focuse the further goes the lens from the film plane - the less is the bellows copressed . Infinity focus is what is important with wide angle lenses.

For a landscape - any of the cameras mentioned will do the job. For architecture I guess that Shen hao and Toho will give you more movements. I have used my Tachi for some architecture. The movements are not full, but to be able to use them you also need lenses with large coverage (read expensive).

Let me justy metion one more reasonable priced wood field camera - Chamonix - search the forum for more.

Easier to use in urban area is the one that does not get too much attention. In this sense metal cameras or monorails tend to fare better than the classic look red wood & brass fittings decorated field camera (like the tachi - so beautifull). But on the other hand filed cameras are quite fast to setup/pack what can be an advantage.

I do not know your budget and equipement you already have, but be sure to get a stable tripod and a stron head. 3-way heads are basically cheaper. I find ball heads especially with longer lenses (I use Osaka 400 tele) harder to use. For architecture where to get camera level is usually needed is the ball head hard to use.

Good luck

kalvino67
31-Aug-2007, 04:38
Thanks for your comments Thomas.

Sorry...the post should have read the best 4x 5 camera for a 75mm lens in relation to ability of camera movements/ focusing for this lens.

kalvino67
31-Aug-2007, 04:49
Let me justy metion one more reasonable priced wood field camera - Chamonix - search the forum for more.

Hi Matus,

I did search for information in English about a 4x5 Chamonix but with not much luck as their website is in Chinese. I contacted their ebay distributors who are selling larger format Chamonix cameras. Waiting time for the 4x5 is approx. 3 months and price is approx $700 US. But I'm not sure of the specs for these cameras, particularly the type of back movements. It didn't sound as though I could find one used on ebay.

Matus Kalisky
31-Aug-2007, 04:56
You can find some info and detailed photos HERE (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=28336&highlight=chamonix)

the guy to conatct on this forum is Hugo Zhang - he can give you the details no need also concernig the production and so on.

You will probably not find used as the company is rather young.

Well, I do not say that this is THE camera you are looking for - it is just another option. I find it interestring compared to Tachi (has longer 360mm bellows).

Ted Harris
31-Aug-2007, 04:59
Kalvino,

The Tachihara, Wista and Shen-Hao are all good, basic wood field cameras. The Toho is somewhat specialized. My advice is, that if you have never used a 4x5 and have no specific commercial reason to buy a 75mm lens .... don't .... at least don't put it in your kit as one of your first lenses. 75mm is very wide on 4x5 and you should really start with longer lenses and see if you feel that you really need the 75. Try shooting first with just the 150 and 210. Wait a while and see if you really feel the need for a wider lens. Alternatively, if you feel you must have a wide angle, start with a 90m lens.

Ash
31-Aug-2007, 05:13
Ted makes a very good point.

I wanted to do work on the other end of the spectrum from you, shootin portraits.

I tried to use very long lenses and found that 150/180 is actually fairly long on 4x5 for me, giving me the best options.


Maybe you could consider something like a 150/120 length to begin with, as you might find with 4x5 you don't need such a wide field of view?

kalvino67
31-Aug-2007, 05:45
My advice is, that if you have never used a 4x5 and have no specific commercial reason to buy a 75mm lens .... don't .... at least don't put it in your kit as one of your first lenses. 75mm is very wide on 4x5 and you should really start with longer lenses and see if you feel that you really need the 75. Try shooting first with just the 150 and 210. Wait a while and see if you really feel the need for a wider lens. Alternatively, if you feel you must have a wide angle, start with a 90m lens.

Thanks for the advice Ted. I am considering buying a 75mm only based on my extensive use of a 20-24mm lens range in 35mm format plus the 4x5 images I have seen by well-renowned photographers. For example, Jack Dykinga's use of the 75mm lens is more appealing to me than say photos by Joe Cornish photos where a 90mm lens was used (although images from both photographers are to die for!!).

...I do love the look of those Chamonix cameras...don't think I can wait 3 months though...need to buy asap to start my LF journey!

Ron Marshall
31-Aug-2007, 07:11
All of the cameras you listed will probably focus a 75mm but they may not allow much rise, which may be important if you want to keep tall forground elements vertical.

I have the Rodenstock you mention (great focal length for 4x5) and the Toho. I can get about 18mm rise out of the 28mm rise available with this lens.

Jack Flesher
31-Aug-2007, 08:11
Lots of good advice so far. I can only add that the camera you start out with is rarely the camera you end up with :) With that in mind, I think you are wise to look at used and relatively inexpensive versions to start, then as you develop the basic view camera skills, our own personal preferences will come out and you'll have a much better idea of what you really want and need in your full-time view camera. Also, there are some things that simply don't go together in any camera, such as all geared movements and uber-light weight, so many of us end up with a couple of cameras to suit different shooting situations. So your first camera could very well become a back-up. Something to keep in mind for building a future kit.

Now to hijack your thread, but at least it's relevant for you -- I am getting ready to list a Nagoaka 4x5 in the B&S later today. It is a really light-weight folding field design, similar to the Tachi or Wista, but weighing in like the Toho -- 2 pounds 12 ounces total on my postage scale! It has some interesting design features, such as the rear standard can move forward, so using a short lens is a breeze. It has enough bellows to focus a 300, so your range of 75 through 210 will be simple. Anyway, it is in very good shape, used and showing normal usage wear, but no abuse or damage. I will list it for $400 shipped in the lower 48. FWIW, I'll also be listing some Tech-sized lensboards in Copal 0, 1 and 3 which is what that camera uses (same board size as Tachi, Wista, Linhof and many others) -- probably $25 each. You'll probably need two #0's for your 75 and 150, and a #1 for the 210.

And now a final comment on your lens choices -- with the 75 and 210 at each end, you might want to consider a 135 as your middle focal unless you are also thinking you'll get a 110 - 120 later.

Cheers,

Jason Greenberg Motamedi
31-Aug-2007, 08:33
Using a recessed technika style lensboard with the Shen Hao, Tachihara, and Wista will give you more movements with a 75mm, however they can be a real pain.

Brian Ellis
31-Aug-2007, 09:16
I've never seen a Toho, I've played around with but haven't actually used a Shen Hao and Wista (not sure of the Wista model). I've owned two Tachiharas and briefly tested a 65mm lens with one. With those qualifications (or lack of qualifications depending on your point of view) in mind:

The Toho might be a little much for a first LF camera though obviously an owner could comment on this better than I can. If backpacking and lengthy hikes are your thing the Toho might be worth considering, otherwise I'd forget it for a first LF camera.

Wistas are IMHO a poor value relative to Shen Hao and Tachihara (hard to figure out why they cost twice as much without any obvious advantages to justify the higher price).

That leaves the Shen Hao or the Tachihara. Shen Haos can accept a bag bellows, Tachiharas can't but you said you don't want to use a bag bellows. That being the case, the Tachihara is your choice I think. Shen owners can correct me here but from what I've read you really need the bag bellows on the Shen to have any significant room for movements with a 90mm or shorter lens. Tachiharas have a very flexible bellows and provide some room for movements using the standard bellows with a 75mm lens (I had a little room for movements even with the 65mm lens I tried IIRC).

So as among those four I'd buy the Tachihara (given your aversion to using a bag bellows, absent which I'd probably have suggested the Shen). Obviously all of this is highly personal and just my opinion based on limited personal use as outline above.

Gordon Moat
31-Aug-2007, 10:11
I have briefly used a 75mm on my Shen-Hao HZX45-AII. It was on a flat lensboard, and I really felt that it would have been easier with a recessed board. The other choice would be a bag bellows. The standard bellows are quite stiff when you get the camera, though they do soften a little with some use. When the camera is new, if you try using a 75mm, you can reach the limits of image circle, but you need to be sure all knobs are locked down well, since the bellows pressure can actually move the front standard out of position.

I had thought I needed a 75mm for some work, which is why I borrowed one to try out. However, the nature of my work has changed a bit, so getting a 75mm is now further down my list of needed items. At whatever point I might get a 75mm, I will get a recessed lensboard to make it easier to use on my Shen-Hao.

Funny you started off mentioning Arca Swiss, since I have really wanted to get a Misura (http://www.galerie-photo.com/misura_peronne_us.html) (out of budget, too much to justify). If you are not familiar with that model, it comes in a nice leather carry-all (PDF Brochure (http://precisioncameraworks.com/Media/misura.pdf)).

I find the back movements on the Shen-Hao are something I use often, so I don't know if I would like more limited back movements. The Graflocks on the back are also very useful, since I have several other backs that need to mount using those. Anyway, you might also want to look into Argentum Cameras (http://www.argentumcamera.com/_angol/html_pages/home.htm). They have a Explorator III (http://www.argentumcamera.com/_angol/html_pages/explorator_III.html) that might be a good comparison with the Shen-Hao HZX45-AII.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio (http://www.allgstudio.com)

kalvino67
31-Aug-2007, 20:06
Does anyone know if the Shen-Hao can be folded with the bag bellows or would you have to re-attach the standard bellows for packing?

Ed Richards
1-Sep-2007, 06:20
You started this thread with a mention of an arca-swiss. The Sinar F series is also a good choice if are considering something other than a field camera. I moved to the Sinar F2 because with the bag bellows I can use lenses from 65mm to 210mm without changing the bellows, and get all the movement a 65mm provides on a flat lensboard. That lets me use a Sinar/Technika adapter and put all my lenses on smaller Technika boards.

David A. Goldfarb
1-Sep-2007, 06:33
So, which of the cameras below with a standard bellows (prefer not to change to a bag bellows) can best focus a 75mm Rodenstock Grandagon-N f4.5 at close range?

"At close range" it's easier to focus a wide lens than at infinity, because you'll have more bellows extension.

I use this lens with a recessed board on a Linhof Tech V, which is generally considered not the best choice for wide lenses, but it still works and I don't feel that there is much I need to do with this combination that I can't accomplish in the field. I think the lesson is that you can manage fairly well with most cameras that don't present some physical obstacle (like a non-removable bellows that doesn't compress sufficiently or no way to avoid having the camera bed in the picture with a wide lens) long as you're a flexible person willing to figure out how to adapt your own procedures to the capabilities of the camera.

Joseph O'Neil
1-Sep-2007, 07:04
A couple of random thoughts. Personally I find recessed lens boards a PITA. The one I have monorail collects dust. I am not a big fan of bag bellows either, maybe I am just lazy that way, or don't want to carry anything more than I have too.

You might want to give consideration to a monorail, as I personally find, when you need a wide range of movements, especially with a 90mm or smaller lens, monorails are much more flexible and easy to use in that regard. They just aren't great for backpacking with - not withstanding some of the more heroic efforts I've seen others make on this list.

One last thought - have you actually used a 90 and 75 side by side? Reason I aks is a 90mm covers a heck of a lot more than one might imagine. I can certianly see the need and use for a 75mm - there have been a few times I wished I had one, but my 90mm does the job for me 95% of the time

joe

kalvino67
1-Sep-2007, 15:57
Does anyone know if the Shen-Hao can be folded with the bag bellows or would you have to re-attach the standard bellows for packing?

It seems nobody has had much experience with the Shen-Hao bag bellows to answer my previous query.

But hopefully the Tachi owners can answer one final question...for cameras like the Tachi which don't have a Graflok back, can a RFH still be used in some way for 6x9? I note Wista has a RFH for their cameras with a spring back. Would something like that fit the Tachi for 6x9 use?

BTW, thanks again for all your comments.

Brian Ellis
1-Sep-2007, 17:15
It seems nobody has had much experience with the Shen-Hao bag bellows to answer my previous query.

But hopefully the Tachi owners can answer one final question...for cameras like the Tachi which don't have a Graflok back, can a RFH still be used in some way for 6x9? I note Wista has a RFH for their cameras with a spring back. Would something like that fit the Tachi for 6x9 use?

BTW, thanks again for all your comments.


I used a 6x7 roll film holder sold by Calumet with my first Tachihara. I'm pretty sure Calumet sells a 6x9 as well. I don't know if the Wista would fit or not, I never tried it.

Kirk Fry
1-Sep-2007, 20:40
Let me suggest a different approach. Try to find an early Arca-Swiss with a bag bellows. The bag bellows will work on a 210 and clear down to at least a 75 (I have no experience with anything wider) and gives lots of movement. Arca made two bag bellows for the early cameras, one synthetic (the "cheap" one which I have) and a leather one. Synthetic is fine. The early frames are not compatible with later frames so be careful that things are compatible. Early Arcas can be had for ~$400 (I got mine for $250 years ago, Ansel used them). Other than cost, bag bellows are not that big a deal. Very useful. Don't eliminate that option offhand. Also I agree starting with a 150 to 180 first and learning is not a bad approach to learn movements. Extreme wide angles won't teach you much about movements. Mostly I end up shooting mine straight on. I have found that wide angles in nature are most useful for stuff that is about 4 ft away. Whatever, don't agonize too much and just do something. Once you get into it you will understand the attraction. Cameras are just boxes, they come and go.

K