Could used LF gear be an OK investment?

[pmazolo]

I have started thinking that perhaps LF gear will not drop any further in price now, and that LF might be the format best surviving the digital age. Only that the used gear moves from commercial photographers to artists....

So, with that thought, I may have an excuse to buy even more gear...;-)

My thinking goes like this: if I have some money in the bank with a bad interest rate, why not have it in nice LF gear instead? Its certainly not like buying a car, computer or digicam where you can calculate a "monthly fee" for the ownership due to steady and fast drop in price.... but the question is, if I buy say a nice LF lens from ebay, will it likely sell for the same amount or more if in the same condition 1 year from now, 3 years, 10 years? (assuming prices are fair, not a bargain in any direction - I guess that could easily change the calculations if you have the knowledge and are good at buying/selling)

What LF gear will likely be the best investment, and what will not be soo good? Lenses, cameras, roll-film backs....? What brands - Linhof, Wista, Sinar, Arca....? Whats your guess?

This is not to really go get LF gear as an investment, only to try to motivate/not to buy some things I would like but dont really need...;-)

/PM

[Frank Petronio]

If you buy top quality items carefully, by being patient and doing your homework, you can almost always recoup your cost plus 10-20% more.

Of course before you try to resell your large ticket items you have to already have earned a good reputation as a seller, with lots of positive feedback. If two identical items are for sale on eBay, and yours has better photos, a detailed and objective description, and you have a stellar reputation, then it is logical that your sale prices will average out higher than your competition.

Sometimes the trading can take on the guise of a hobby untoitself, beyond photography.... be careful.

The most sophisitcated gear "investors" juice the market by publishing online portfolios of stunningly beautiful photos made with "certain" rare lenses... which just so happen to appear on eBay a few days later. Such timing is so brilliant that it gives Gordon Gecko and Donald Trump wet spasms of envy....

[Pete Watkins]

Watch what you're doing with your cash, there are rumours over here (BBC Radio 4) that there is a possibility of a recession in the U.S. I hope that this doesn't happen 'cos last time it worked its way over here and we all suffered.
Pete.

[Joseph O'Neil]

Depends on how you look at it. It seems to me that *anything* purchased as an investment only, with the hopes of making money, seems to disappoint you eventually. However, in the long run, I think large format gear holds it's value better than many other items right now.

For example, if you go out today and buy the latest ad greatest digital SLR, odds are in 5 years, you will be lucky to recoup 10 cents on the dollar if you try and sell it. Speaking as somebody who has been into desktop publishing for almost 18 year (we had an actual printing press before that), the number of printers and machines and software and computers that I litterally spent thousands of dollars on, only to find now virtually worthless, well, it's depressing. You know the sad thing about it to, whenever somebody says "well, you made your money out of it" - well, not 100% true. My dad made a lot more money off his old printing press than I did off my computer, scanners, monitors and printers be didn't have the capital cost of having to upgrade everything every 3-4 years. :)

Anyhow, back on topic, I have a really nice Crown Graphic I bought about ten years ago. Going by prices on flea-bay, I could in theory get more money for it that what I paid, but then factor in the cost of inflation, I am only breaking even.

However, compared to my computer example above, and the fact I've been able to use the camera for ten years, breaking even is not such a bad thing.

So the bottom line to me is this - if you want to go out and buy a really good used Lindhof in the hopes that ten years from now, factoring in inflation, that you will be able to sell it and double or triple your money - naw, I don't think so. Anything is possible, but I do not think probable.

But, i you look at how many electronic items we buy today - cameras, computers, mp3 players, etc, etc, and we see how fast these items become obsolete or virtually worthless compared to their original cost, then yes, in this comparison, i think that large format gear will hold it's value in the long run, and it's a lot better investment.

One last point - I was taught many years ago to "never invest in anything you cannot understand." I buy LF gear mostly because I like to use it, but with that comes an understanding of how and why it works (to some limited degree). You should, IMO, only invest in LF gear if it is something you are going to stick with and use. for example, my dad collects old woodworkng tools, but he has a modern workshop with many power tools, so he collects out of a combined motive of using some of the older tools when he can,and an understanding of exacyly how they used to work when he cannot use them.

Whatever you invest in, make it something you can stick with, and even enjoy. good luck
joe

[Nick_3536]

If you buy the trendy today you'll likely lose money. Unless it gets even more trendy in the future.

If you buy the unloved and hated odds are at worst you'll break even. In todays market the unloved is so unloved it can sell for less then the parts. People are selling some lenses for less then the cost of the shutter.

[Nick_3536]

Oh on what to buy?

You have to guess what the next great trend will be.

Will it be light weight kit for hiking? Will it be big old portrait lenses? Will it be studio cameras?

[John Kasaian]

You can't hardly give away enlargers & dry mount presses right now. If I had a warehouse I'd stash all the Seals, D-2s and Beseler 45s that are being given away on Craig's List for a few years.

I can't say that I've been financially hurt by the Deardorff, Agfa-Anscos, 5x7 Speed Graphic, Ektars, and Goerz lenses I use. Even the stash of AZO in the freezer seems to have gone up in value. ULF stuff is more like an investment ennuity than photo gear!

[Henry Ambrose]

I have some things I'll sell you to start your investment portfolio.
Trust me.

:D

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

Joseph's advice is very good. I would add that there will always be some cameras (that provided there is still film available) will always have a good resale value, even if you don't get what you originally paid for them. Examples are Phillips cameras ( I would kill for a Phillips 12x20), Gandolfi Traditional, some Linhof models, some Arca Swiss models, Deardorff, some Kodak models, and some Ansco models. You have a good range of prices within these brands ranging from a couple of hundred dollars to a a few thousand.

WHat I think you should ask yourself is how much you will use the camera and how much enjoyment you will get from it. If you get a camera that you cannot wait to take out, use it for 10 years, make great photographs with it, then what does it matter if you cannot sell it back for a lot of money?

[Steven Barall]

Get a job.

[pmazolo]

Thanks all for commenting!

It seems some of you find the word "investment" so bad in relation to photography you did not read the post, only the title? Didnt realise the topic was "hot"...;-)

I am not going for LF gear as an investment, to try to guess trends and make money (but if someone does I have no problem with that either). The question was if I am likely to loose a lot of money by buying some LF gear now that I want, but that I cant really motivate that I REALLY need now.

The idea was: why not get that extra lens and have some fun with it now, sell it in 1-5 years and not be much worse off then having had the money in the bank.

/PM

[Alan Davenport]

The correct answer is: why not buy the extra lens NOW, and the devil with whether you make a profit or even break even in five years. Everything in life need not be driven by some bottom line...

[John Kasaian]

If you don't need it now, its quite likely that you probably won't need it ever. To buy things because you think you might possibly need it in the future ties up money for things you will need now. Why buy a long lens you have no need for now when tomorrow you might have a very real need for a wide (or long) lens? The more cr@p you have laying arond unused the more complicated life becomes. Believe me--I could be the poster boy for this dilemma! Hey you want a Kodak Precision "A" enlarger? I'll make you such a deal! ;)

[Ole Tjugen]

I have a big stack of obsolete computer gear, but none of my camera gear is obsolete. Some of it may well be over a century old, but it's still as good as the day it was made.

Buying second-hand LF gear is "fairly safe": Judging by the prices over the last few years the price is not going down, and some things are selling for increasing prices ("Galli lenses" and Angulons).

I don't expect to lose money on any of my cameras either, with the possible exception of the Russian 30x40cm monstrosity...

[Nick_3536]

With the the number of things getting harder to find I have to admit buying things I DON'T need right now. Too often things I have needed have at best soared in price or worse no longer been sold by anybody. I wish I'd bought a few new 5x7 holders when they were still being made. I got a fairly reasonable deal on some newish 4x5 holders. Do I need five more holders? Nope OTOH when I do need them who knows how hard they'll be too find.

I'm not paying high prices for anything but I am keeping an eye out for good deals. I expect to use all the stuff in the future.

[erie patsellis]

Ole,
we really do need to figure out a cost effective way to ship that thing over here...


erie

[Hugo Zhang]

The answer is YES if only few people agree with you here. NO if most people agree with you. In that case, LF gears will be overbid, overbought and overowned.

On the other hand, if you live in USA, it will probably an OK investment because the dollar and houses are going down for the next few years and you can enjoy your old lenses and sell them to the Chinese for a profit a few years later.

[windpointphoto]

Not when Lenny "Buy high, sell low" Peterson is involved.

[vijayn]

First of all, by definition, an investment is supposed to yield a return; even if you do not sell it. Thus, when a professional photographer buys a camera that he uses to earn money, his purchase is an investment. Buying something with the intention that you will sell it for a higher price to someone else is not investment. By definition, that is speculation.

Therefore based on what you say, you are asking whether it is OK to speculate that prices of something (LF gear in this case) will appreciate faster than inflation so that you can make a real, inflation adjusted profit in the future by selling it. Unfortunately for you, if this is your question, then the answer is no. First of all, with a US and possible global recession or even depression looming, it seems unlikely that there will be an LF equipment bubble soon, if ever. LF - or at least true LF equipment only has meaning with film (you don't need 500mm coverage with digital sensors); and film will be mostly dead as soon as there is a short squeeze on silver. If you read about the silver industry, you will realize that above ground stockpiles of silver are at their lowest, ever. This means that silver will become more expensive as time goes by, meaning more unused film equipment in the market, which means lower prices for it.

Not to give any investment advice, but if I had to speculate about anything, it would be on silver and uranium, not LF equipment. Like houses, you can love LF equipment, collect it, wallow in it, ogle it, or use it; but recognize that it requires cash inflow to maintain, therefore it is a liability, not an asset or an investment.

[Joseph O'Neil]

You can't hardly give away enlargers & dry mount presses right now. If I had a warehouse I'd stash all the Seals, D-2s and Beseler 45s that are being given away on Craig's List for a few years.

I am amazed that in my little city (about 350,000 people), 4x5 or any LF enlarger will get snapped up very quickly at the one local camera store that sill carries darkroom supplies. A couple of really nice colour head Omegas from the local university sold that showed up about 4-5 months ago, within 2 weeks of sitting on the shelf, sold - and with local sales taxes (14% here in Ontario) the total price would of been near $1,000 each (Cdn $$$).

Now they did have one lens each and power supply and very good condition.

However, by direct comparison, I do see excellent condition 35mm and 120 format only enlargers collect dust, dust, and more dust. Just this past week, an excellent condition 35mm & 120 format Omega, with colour head, power supply, carriers, and one lens (nikkor - 50mm) at a price of $50 (Cdn. $$$) has been advertised locally for almost the whole month of August now, with no takers.


It's a paradox right now to be sure. I too see great deals and giveaways, such as the DeVere 504 in Toronto I picked up last year for $50 Cdn. Sure needed a good cleaning and some small repairs, but I love the thing.

So I am with you - grab all the 4x5 enlargers you can, stash them, because of all enlargers, I think there's a future in anything LF.

joe

[Dick Hilker]

I think the same advice that's often given to would-be investors in art and cars would be appropriate --simply buy what you love and enjoy it. When the time comes, inflation will probably protect you from significant loss and you'll have enjoyed years of use at minimal cost.

Save your investment money for more realistic investments, such as securities or real estate unless you plan to actually make a business of buying and selling used equipment, not the surest road to riches in an area of such uncertainty as film-based photography.

[Wayne Crider]

The best time to buy photographic gear was just after 9/11 when everything hit Ebay and the forums at low prices. As time went on and the economy recovered prices went up slowly on analog cameras and lenses as digital made in-roads, and they are where they are today, probably much closer to the top then bottom, although there are the occasional deals some of us find. That would change if terrorist attacks start in the U.S.. Then what happens is we American's close our wallets and the economy tightens up. If American's start loosing jobs in any numbers you'll see stuff again hit Ebay and go up for sale at reduced prices.

If you have the ability to buy the lens you want now go ahead. The chances you'll recover your money at any time if you dislike it are 50/50. To see any profit from such a lens in the future would necessitate a peaceful world where the economy grows at a sustainable rate without runaway inflation and where the products we use are still available. Based on what "I" see affecting our world your best bet would be to grow a vegetable garden with your money.

[Bruce Watson]

I have started thinking that perhaps LF gear will not drop any further in price now, and that LF might be the format best surviving the digital age. Only that the used gear moves from commercial photographers to artists....

If it's an investment you want, a better bet is to invest in prints. If you want to support LF, buy prints from photographers who use LF to make their photographs. Prints from a number of photographers have gained significant value over the years. Sadly, this usually happens after the photographer dies. Sigh...

I can't think of any cameras or lenses that have anything like the upside potential of a photograph. And they don't look nearly as good hanging on the wall, nor can they inspire you to go out and make better photographs the way a master print does.

[Herb Cunningham]

As an experienced trader, the only time you make money on anything is when you pay a low enough price for it.
Most of my time it has been the opposite, but occasionally I will come out ahead on camera stuff.

Bottom line, you are better off getting an electronic stock market account and learning how to spot lows rather than being sure us old guys estate's won't know how much their fathers left to them is worth.

[archivue]

hight quality second hand lf stuff will keep is value till the end of film... but after_____ !

[rhbourbonnais]

The one big fluxuation that I found on LF prices, is that on EBay at least, prices seem to drop dramatically when people are paying their taxes. I guess some people dig out their old stuff to pay uncle Sam. A month or two later, the prices seem to recover.

Robin

[Keith Pitman]

A friend reminds me from time-to-time that he is first of all concerned about the return OF his money, after that he is concerned about the return ON his money.

[David A. Goldfarb]

hight quality second hand lf stuff will keep is value till the end of film... but after_____ !

I think any 4x5" camera with a Graflok/International back should convert to digital with no problem at all.

[Gary Tarbert]

LF gear as an investment:confused: Now if i could only convince my wife:D cheers Gary

[C. D. Keth]

One should make an investment persuit of those iris thingies for holding barrel lenses. Every time I've seen and tried to buy one it went way above and beyond its value to me and I let it go.

Same thing with extension beds for Kodak 2Ds.

Perhaps it's a matter of picking and choosing items rather than LF equipemnt as a whole.

[paulr]

it's a great investment if you use it.

if not, then it's probably safer to bet on the horses.

[bigdog]

If I had a warehouse I'd stash all the Seals, D-2s and Beseler 45s that are being given away on Craig's List for a few years.

Me, too! Although not so much as an investment to make money, but as an "investment" in preserving gear that may become scarce down the road. I just hate to see perfectly good tools get trashed. :eek:

Locally, is seems to be $50 Canon AE-1s. Not exciting to the LF community, but you know ... ;)

[Mark Sampson]

Vintage string instruments might be better. Guitar playing isn't going to go away any time soon, and people will pay lots of money for old Martins, Gibsons, and Fenders. I recently read where Sotheby's will no longer hold collector camera auctions due to decreased demand... if the Leica-nuts won't spend, there's not much future in LF gear as "collectibles".

[Mark Sawyer]

Lenses are probably better investments than cameras, as it seems more amd more cameras are being made, just as more and more lenses go out of production.

And as the lf community has an appreciation for the older "classics", I suspect those will appreciate, especially as the overseas (ie Chinese) market absorbs them.

BTW, is there no soft-focus large format lens being manufactured anymore?

[audioexcels]

I have some things I'll sell you to start your investment portfolio.
Trust me.

:D

Hehehehehehe:):):)

[Ron Marshall]

At least that is what I've managed to brainwash my wife into believing!