First Pyrocat HD negs ... ??? !!!

[Matus Kalisky]

Hi all Pyrocats,

After long warming up I finaly went and develped my firs negs in Pyrocat HD and as I am not overly too happy about the results - here comes my post - please read carefully and "enjoy" the scans...

First how it was all done:

- Film:TMAX400 4x5
- Developer: Pyrocat HD in glycol (from PhotoFormulary), mixed just before the developement 1:1:100. One sheet at a time in 250 ml of solution in a small tray (~ 4.5 x 5,5 or a bit more)
- Stop bath: Plain tap water
- Fixer: Ilford Rapid Fixer 1:9
- Wash: tap water
- Final rins in some kind of PhotoFlo

- Temperature: cca 20 deg Celsius

- I was working in total darkness (tough)

Times:
- Presoak: 2 min
- Developement: 12 min with first 60sec agitation and then each minute for cca 10s (rocking and moving the tray)
- Stop: cca 1.5 min
- Fix: cca 4 min

Air dried. The "scans" were made on a light table with a DSLR.

Color of the solution A - slight orange
Color of the solution B - nearly like a water

Color of the used developer - blue
Color of the used stop bath - blue

Now to the pictures:
1a) Direct scan with adjusted levels and contrast to make the message stronger - the color was unchanged - so (in real life - scans do not reproduce the real color of the negatives too well) magenta-pink-something. Is it supposed to look like this ?? :confused:

1a) inverted and desaturated. Without desaturation it is nice blue. It is quite flat (not so surprizing - the original scene was flat too)

1b) Edge detail - not very even ...

2a) Here I had tio screw up the exposure (sounds strange to me as this is on of the testing negative 5 times the same composition at different film EI - I have some more to be developed) I just show it becaue os the uneveness.

2a) Inverted

3a) Another testing neg - now you can see something there - but is - well - looks strange too.

3a) Inverted and desaturated.

3b) Detail from 3a

------

Well - once inverted the (1a) look rather OK but not perfect. The rest is more like a disaster. Especially the (3a) looks like fogged or so ... NO reason for that.

Please - any comments and advices will be more than appreciated....

[Matus Kalisky]

Rest of the scans.

[David Schaller]

My suggestion is to use more developer and to agitate every thirty seconds after the first minute of constant agitation. I just did two negatives in a 5x7 tray, and used 500cc of solution. I also use the alkaline fix from Photographers Formulary rather than regular fixer. I rinse the negatives in running water for 15-20 minutes.

[Dan Schmidt]

You should try to recreate something more like a film test.

find a scene with a normal range of contrast (both whites and shadows). Also make sure it is not a close up, because you want to get everything in sharp focus. The side of a building will do. Expose 5-6 six identical negatives. I'm not sure if you should rate the TMAX a little lower than 400 , other people may chime in, but TMAX should be pretty linear so i bet it can hurt.

If you dont want your solutions to end up blue, presoak the negative. I would shuffle process all six negatives at once.

you might try 2:2:100 , but i don't know what your final output will be silver, alt, scanning?

In the developer shuffle all negatives together , remove from the developer and into the water bath one at a time at 8 min, 12 min, 16 min ....

then process normally

do what ever you final output will be (print or scan) and then look at them to evaluate contrast. Determine which looks most "normal" then the other negatives will tell you how to adjust development for contrasty or flat scenes

[Henry Ambrose]

You stated: "in a small tray (~ 4.5 x 5,5 or a bit more)"

The tray you are using is too small so that rocking the tray will not give even development. Use a larger tray with plenty of developer and agitate by lifting a single sheet of film out of the developer, draining for a few seconds, then placing it back in the developer. The tray should be large enough for you to easily grasp the film by a corner. Do this continuously every 15 seconds. Wear rubber gloves.

Dan's idea about a test scene is good but first prove your developing technique. Expose one sheet of film by photographing the side of a building lit by open sky. Rate the film at 200-320. Develop using the new method outlined above. If that sheet looks good then do the test for film speed.

Now use an even larger volume of developer and shuffle continuously with 4-6 sheets. (this will match one sheet lifted every 15 seconds) At this point you should have the method worked out, so keep doing it the same way from then on.

[Matus Kalisky]

- Dan -

the exposures (2) and (3) are such a film test. I have 3 more left to be developed - I just got stuck what I saw the first results.

I did presoak the film.

I did not wat to develope more than on at a time to minimize possible confusion.

Final ouput is silver/scanning

- Ken -

I used rather small trays of size merly 5 x 6 inch. SO the depth of the developer was about 1 - 1.5 cm. I guess the film does not float so it would be at the bottom. I will try 500ml nex time.

As I mentioned already - I did only one sheet at a time. It takes long but I found it easier for the beginning.

How do you agigate ?

Is the fixer soluition OK (1:9)?

- Henry -

OK - I will try a larger tray and more continuos agitation.

When developing more sheets at a time - how to put the sheet back in the solution without scratching the bottom one? I gues I should avoid touching the emultion side ... ?

[Eric Rose]

If you presoaked for at least 3 min's the developer would not have been blue when finished. I'm not familiar with tray development, but all that rocking and sloshing might be a problem. Maybe semi-stand would be better in a tray no less than 5x7 in size.

Good luck, PyroCat-HD is an excellent developer. I've never had a problem with it in the several years I have been using it.

[Henry Ambrose]

Matus,

The film goes in emulsion side up. Slide the bottom film out and then lay it down on top of the stack. Keep doing this until time is up. When you lay the film down, put the edge or corner down into the tray and off the stack, then let it lay flat. You won't scratch the other film this way. Touching the corners just enough to pick it up won't hurt the film.

[Andrew O'Neill]

Instead of more continuous agitation, try more vigorous. Your film can sit in a tray for about 15 minutes in pyrocat and shouldn't show any signs of uneveness or mottling as long as your agitation cycles are "vigorous". Trays are a wonderful way to develop sheet film.
250ml of solution is very little. Bump it up to 500ml. Are you mixing 5ml A + 5ml B + 250ml water?
Blue developer and blue stop are very strange and shouldn't happen if you are presoaking your film...my spent developer always comes out a very deep reddish colour. If your film is coming out with a slight magenta cast, just let them soak for a bit in water or try fixing for a bit longer. Four minutes is too short even in rapid fix.
Solution A when fresh should be a very very light peachy colour. When mine starts to look orange I mix up a fresh batch from scratch.

[sanking]

Matus,

Lots of things going on that I don't understand and won't comment about. However, it is very clear that your development procedures are not completely removing the magenta anti-halation backing of the TMY film. This back is notoriously hard to remove and often requires extra time in a very strong and fresh fixer. In fact, I often have to place TMY film in a 1% sodium sulfite bath for up to ten minutes in order to completely remove the magenta color. Failure to completely remove this back will result in the uneven kind of mottling observed in some of your negatives. This is a TMY issue, not a Pyrocat-HD issue.

There may be other issues as well.

Sandy King

[Ken Lee]

Another small suggestion, to lower the number of variables: Try using distilled water. Who knows what is in the tap water ? (Who wants to know ?)

[steve simmons]

You've got way too many variables here.

and you are making this way too complicated

and having too much fun with photo shop

so

give up the photo shop

reduce the variables

read my article on tray developing, you can do six and not have to keep track of which one is which

do some testing, the Picker method works well

articles describing this material is on the Free Articles section of the view camera site

www.viewcamera.com


steve simmons

[scott_6029]

Shoot some more, develop some more and when using pyro, I strongly suggest printing the negs as these negs don't look/print like unstained developed negs either...

[Matus Kalisky]

Hi all,

thanks for all your suggestions - let me answer or comment a bit:

- Eric -

I will increase the presoak time to 3 minutes

- Andrew -

- I was using "rock that tray" agitation as I read that in some forum (here or APUG) - obviously not enough. I will go for "standard" agitiation of lifting the sheets out of the tray completely.
- No, I mixed 2.5ml A + 2.5ml B + 250ml of tap water. This gives 255ml of 1:1:100 solution.
- Is the dillution of Ilford fixer of 1:9 OK ?

- Sandy -

- thank you - I did not know where the magenta color came from. Still - it makes me wonder that after 2 + 12 + 1 + 4 + 5 minutes the anti-hallatin layer is still there ...

- I am still wondering where the blue color comes from. Hopefully not from the tray itself (it is a small container designed for food and - it is blue ...) - the tray look OK - not " mleted" I will try a bigger one designed for photo chemicals.

- Ken -

- I used the distilled water for the fixer only. The fixer (1 liter) was used before to fix a few 4x5 prints but really only a few .... I will use the destilled water for the developement as well.

- Steve -

- I have read your article in the past and will go through it again - I really want to nail this issue all the way down.
- The only Photoshop in this process was to bring the results to this forum...

- Scott -

- For sure - I will do some contact prints (no enlarger by now) as soon as I get at least reasonable looking negative.

Remaining questions:

1) How do you (Sandy already did mention this) deal with the anti-hallation layer of the TMY ?

2) Why should 250ml not be enough? In the spec sheet that came alongt with the pyrocat is written that 250ml of 1:1:100 should be enough to develope one 8x10 sheet. Sure - in different conditions but I am developing only 4x5. What is the optimal (minimal) "depth" of the developer bath?

3) Can the not removed part of the anti-hallation layer be washed afterwards? I.e. - shold I try to rewash the negatives I have shown here?

4) What about the blue color of the develeper and stop bath - it was proposed to presoak longer, but my question is - is the COLOR itself expected or should I suspect the blue tray ?

5) I will keep fixing the sheets longer. At which point can I turn ot the lights?

6) Is one supposed to work in COMPLETE darknesds (I did) or some type of safelight could be used.. ?

Please stay tuned - I will inform about the progress

Thanks again

[Ken Lee]

1, 3) Based on Sandy's recommendation, I remove the magenta cast as follows: After fix, a brief rinse in water.

(In my experience, slowly raising the temperature of wash water to 75 F, speeds the washing process, and gives better results).

Next 10 minutes soaking in a 10% solution of Sodium Sulfite with periodic agitation. Then, final wash as normal.

Note: The active ingredient in the traditional formula for Hypo Clear, is Sodium Sulfite, so this not only clears the magenta cast, it also removes the fixer.

4) Don't worry too much about the blue color. I get that too. The magenta color of the anti-halation layer is mixing with the stain of the PyroCat. Just make sure that your developer is not oxidizing too much in the tray as you are using it. That's why I use deep "trays", and use 1 litre or more - and develop up to 15 sheets at a time.

5, 6)After fix, you can turn on the lights. Or, you can wear an Infra Red (http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/tech/tech.html#Monocular)viewing device and see everything from beginning to end.

[sanking]

Remaining questions:

1) How do you (Sandy already did mention this) deal with the anti-hallation layer of the TMY ?

Fix longer and make sure that the solution if fresh and at the right strength. And be sure to agitate a few times during the fix. As a last resort, soak the negative for about ten minutes in a 1% solution of sodium sulfite.

2) Why should 250ml not be enough? In the spec sheet that came alongt with the pyrocat is written that 250ml of 1:1:100 should be enough to develope one 8x10 sheet. Sure - in different conditions but I am developing only 4x5. What is the optimal (minimal) "depth" of the developer bath?

Those directions were meant for rotary processing in Jobo or tubes. Still, 250mm should be enough solution in my opinion to develop a 4X5 in a small tray. Just make sure that you use enough solution to keep the negative covered.

3) Can the not removed part of the anti-hallation layer be washed afterwards? I.e. - shold I try to rewash the negatives I have shown here?

You won't need the long wash if you soak the negative in the sodium sulfite solution I recommended. You could wash the old negatives now and see what happens, but I am afraid that some of the color may now be permanent. Translation. I tried this myself once and could not remove the magenta stain.

4) What about the blue color of the develeper and stop bath - it was proposed to presoak longer, but my question is - is the COLOR itself expected or should I suspect the blue tray ?

I have no idea why the blue. If you pre-soak TMY negatives the drain color is purple black. The color of used Pyrocat-HD should be light brown or rust colored.

5) I will keep fixing the sheets longer. At which point can I turn ot the lights?

It is generally safe to turn on the lights as soon as the negatives come out of the stop bath, assuming you use an acid stop bath of normal strength. In any event, it will definitely be safe to turn on the lights once the negatives are in the fix for few seconds.

6) Is one supposed to work in COMPLETE darknesds (I did) or some type of safelight could be used.. ?

You must work in complete darkness with TMY until the negatives come out of the stop bath. The only alternative would be to use night vision goggles.

Sandy King

[Henry Ambrose]

2) Why should 250ml not be enough?

It is enough chemical to develop the film but when it is placed in a tray that is large enough for the job its not physically enough to cover and recover the film as you agitate. I think 1 inch (25mm) depth is just enough for one sheet, but 50mm might be enough for 4-6 sheets. Always use plenty of developer. The volume of developer needed to reach this depth will vary with the capacity of the tray. So there is a difference in the amount of chemistry needed to develop a certain surface area of emulsion and the amount needed to physically cover the film.


3) Can the not removed part of the anti-hallation layer be washed afterwards? I.e. - should I try to rewash the negatives I have shown here?

Yes, you can remove the color after fixing.

4) What about the blue color of the developer and stop bath

The blue color does not hurt anything in the process.


5), 6) Is one supposed to work in COMPLETE darkness?

I turn the lights on after about one or two minutes in the fixer. Agitate the film continuously in the fix for the first couple of minutes. Until then you must work in complete darkness.

[scott_6029]

2) For 4x5 I use a smaller 5 x 7 tray filled about 2/3rds with pyro. If you are developing in an 8 x 10 tray, try again about 2/3rds full.

3) presoak 5 minutes. Shuffle in pre-soak, don't just let them sit.

4) won't hurt, but you shouldn't transfer over much color at all in your developer. Try pre-soaking longer and shuffling in pre-soak.

[Matus Kalisky]

Thanks to you all of you. Here is my summary for the nex attempt

1) Use more developer (I will go still sheet by sheet untilthe process works). I should have ordered more than only 2x0.5 liter of Pyrocat ... Next time.

2) Agitate more vigorously

3) Use longer presoak and fixing times

4) Wash the film with Kodak Hypo Clear (how strong?)

and a few more questions:

1) What is the fixing capacity of 1liter of Ilford Rapid Fixer dilluted 1:9 ?

2) Is the metined Kodak Hype OK to use ?

3) ... ? :)

[Ken Lee]

One other suggestion: For your next test, don't shoot anything important. Just choose a suitable test subject.

[Chuck Pere]

I don't know about your Ilford Rapid Fixer but my bottle says to use 1:4 for film. For paper they list times for both 1:4 and 1:9. I've always used 1:4 for film. Check your bottle directions as they may be different in Germany.

[Matus Kalisky]

One more question:

I just got the Kodak Hypo clear bath. One is supposed to prepare the working solution as 1:4 (stock solution : water) - how long should I bath the negatives to remove the anti halation layer from the TMY? Should I use the times stated on the package, or should I use longer?

thanks

[Greg Nelson]

There are lots of good suggestions here. I have had excellent results with Pyrocat HD and Ilford b+w films (HP5+, FP4) using tray development. I develop vertically using film holders now, presoak 5 minutes, agitate every 30 sec (unless using a semi-stand method), stop in tapwater, and rapid fix (Ilford) for 5 minutes. Make sure you mix the developer in distilled water.

[Ken Lee]

The anti-halation layer is the the magenta-colored dye. After you fix the negatives, there is still some magenta color in the negatives.

I am not familiar with Kodak's proprietary formula for Hypo Clear, but it would not surprise me if it contains mostly Sodium Sulfite, which does a good job of removing the magenta color. As suggested, a 10-minute bath in Sodium Sulfite gets rid of almost all the magenta color, such that additional washing carries the rest away with little effort.

Since no one else answered your question, I recommend that you simply try Hypo Clear for the recommended time, and see how much magenta color is left. If you have to extend the time in the Hypo Clear, it won't hurt your negatives. If you feel that the extra time is inconvenient, then use a warmer solution. Just be sure to change the temperature of the water gradually.

Feel free to experiment, and tell us what you find.