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View Full Version : Wista 45SP folding with 90/6.8 Angulon + 135/5.6 Sironar-S + 240/9 Fujinon A



pmazolo
14-Aug-2007, 04:18
Hi,
doing some research I have chosen these lenses:

90/6.8 Angulon - not much movement, but I dont think I need that on the 90mm. The only really small 90mm I could find. Good enough?

135/5.6 Sironar-S a bit expensive, but this is my most important lens...therefor not the Sironar-N for example...

240/9 Fujinon A - The only 240mm in a Copal #0. Bright enough?

First of all they are very small and light to carry.

I think they are bright enough for focusing on the Wista with just the hood, no cloth?

I was also hoping they would all fit on flat panels and fold into the SP? Or will I have to use recessed lensboard for some of them to use and fold inside? Or use the trick to reverse the lens when folding....?

(Also, Could you suggest any good alternatives for me?)

Rgds
PM

Rob_5419
14-Aug-2007, 04:46
No doubt other field/technical camera users will chime in.

I try to avoid using a recessed board as far as possible. You might feel the same way after trying to change the aperture/shutter speeds in the small recess within the smaller size of lensboards that fit your SP.

The 90mm f6.8 is a fine lens. Its coverage is very limited and it is good enough. Otherwise the 90mm S.A. f8 is a fine lens with some coverage too. Most people prefer the historic Nikkor SW 90mm f8 which has greater covering power. I prefer the 90mm Super Angulon XL f5.6 which has the greatest covering power for that focal length :D

The 135mm Sironar-S is great if you like that focal length. Personally I don't (!) so I only have a 135mm Sironar-N. The Rodenstock 180mm Sironar-S is my fav. focal length.

Are you using the Wista bright screen fresnel? With the hood you should manage with an f8 no problem. f9 is pushing it.

Frank Petronio
14-Aug-2007, 06:28
The 135 is super and it folds up into the camera, as the 90 should as well. IDK about the 240 but maybe.

If you get a 90 Angulon look for a late model one (serial numbers over 5 million) in a good shutter. The Linhof selected ones are better, even the older ones.

I've never seen a bad 135 Sironar unless it has been abused, and the 240 has a great reputation. It is slower but with longer lenses the f/9 isn't as much of a hardship as you might think since you have sort of a tunnel vision thing going on.

The SP is great and the Wista fresnel is excellent, no need to replace it. I think a longer Wista hood loupe that allows you to loupe with the hood extended (the loupe is 5 inches long) is nice to have. I rarely use a dark cloth and only for very bright or extreme conditions -- and a t-shirt/jacket will suffice.

pmazolo
14-Aug-2007, 06:53
Is there any special reason for the >5million serial? Any difference between >2 or >3 or >4 too?

Woud you say the Sironar-S is worth the money over the N? Image quality wise....

And will the 90 and 135 fold into the SP on flat boards?

/PM

Bob Salomon
14-Aug-2007, 06:58
Is there any special reason for the >5million serial? Any difference between >2 or >3 or >4 too?

Woud you say the Sironar-S is worth the money over the N? Image quality wise....

And will the 90 and 135 fold into the SP on flat boards?

/PM

Get a modern 90 and forget the Angulon. There is a big difference in performance between a modern multi-coated 90mm and any version of the Angulon.

pmazolo
14-Aug-2007, 07:03
Get a modern 90 and forget the Angulon. There is a big difference in performance between a modern multi-coated 90mm and any version of the Angulon.

But they are huge and heavy...and expensive.... (how/what difference is seen in a 1x1.5 meter print from 2 meters viewing distance would you say?)

/PM

pmazolo
14-Aug-2007, 07:05
Are there any reasonably small/light modern 90mm with f6.8 or better?

Frank Petronio
14-Aug-2007, 07:07
The nicest compact modern 90s like the 90/6.8 Grandagon or 90/8 Nikkor are still to large to fold, but they will be more flare resistant and much sharper at wider apertures. The old Angulon really needs to be stopped down to f/22 or so to be critically sharp but then it will be just as sharp as any modern lens, if it is a good example.

Schneider's quality control got better throug the 1960s and the later examples are more consistently better... the Linhof selects are usually always best.

Don't pay over $250-$300 for an Angulon, you can find a user modern 90/6.8 Grandagon for $400 if patient.

Both the 90 and 135 will fold on flat boards, I know for sure.

The Sironar N may test slightly less sharp than the S, which also has greater coverage. But in real life, the images from an N are absolutely as good as images from the S, and I would only get the S if I needed huge movements (not needed for landscape, but maybe for architecture, in which case the SP might be limited in movements...). You CANNOT see the differences between the lens on film or prints, and other factors weigh so much more than the test results from a lens chart.

Brian Ellis
14-Aug-2007, 07:14
Nice choice of focal lengths. However, I think the Angulon is a good choice in 90mm only if you limit your photography to landscapes, portraits, etc., things that don't require any significant movements. Also, be sure to buy the Angulon with a right of return so you can test it. Many of the Angulons were made back in the days when Schneider's quality control wasn't what it is today.

As for the 135, I have the 135mm Sironar S - it's a nice lens but IMHO it will provide you nothing that the N (or the Nikon 135, which I also used to have) won't give you except IIRC a slightly greater angle of coverage. In other words, the photographs you'll make with it aren't going to be noticeably sharper or otherwise better than some less expensive 135s though you'll have more flexibility. So if it were me I'd get the N or the Nikon or another 135mm lens of comparable quality but lower price and use the savings to get a 90mm f8 Super Angulon or another 90 with better coverage than the Angulon. But obviously lens selection is highly personal, my comments are relative quibbles.

I'm not so sure about Frank's statement that used Linhof Select lenses are better. If you read about what Linhof does (or did) with these lenses it's mostly a matter of matching a particular lens to a particular camera when they left the factory together and closer manufacturing tolerances. If you don't own the camera/shutter to which the lens was originally matched then that benefit disappears and the manufacturing tolerances when the lens came from the factory may or may not still be applicable when the lens is long gone from the factory. So personally I wouldn't pay the extra 10% or so premium that used Linhof Select lenses sometimes command.

BradS
14-Aug-2007, 07:48
Get a modern 90 and forget the Angulon. There is a big difference in performance between a modern multi-coated 90mm and any version of the Angulon.

I have to agree with Bob on this one. The 90mm angulon is near worthless except straight on. If shooting the landscape, the first thing you're going to want to do is give a little front tilt and the little angulon will just not cover....it's small and less expensive but so what if you cannot use it?

Bob Salomon
14-Aug-2007, 07:53
If you read about what Linhof does (or did) with these lenses it's mostly a matter of matching a particular lens to a particular camera when they left the factory together and closer manufacturing tolerances. If you don't own the camera/shutter to which the lens was originally matched then that benefit disappears and the manufacturing tolerances when the lens came from the factory may or may not still be applicable when the lens is long gone from the factory. So personally I wouldn't pay the extra 10% or so premium that used Linhof Select lenses sometimes command.

No that isn't what Linhof does.

Linhof (and Sinar) both purchased a Rodenstock manufactured Siemens Star projector (a huge floor standing thing that moves on rails). The lens is first examined in a dark box with an indirect light in it to check for particles, bubbles or other things in the glass and between the elements of the lens. If found they try to clean them out before proceeding further with testing. If they can not be cleaned out the lenses are returned to the Schneider or Rodenstock factories. The lenses that pass are then checked for shutter speed accuracy. Those that fail are adjusted or returned. The passed lenses are then mounted in the Rodenstock projector that projects Siemens Star patterns on to a large wall. An examiner stands by the wall and examines the patterns projected. He has a remote control in his hand that allows him to rotate the lens in the projector. By watching the formation and patterns of Siemens Stars he can detect problems with the lenses within the field area that the lens is capable of covering.

Some lenses that test particularly well for a certain format (say 617 or 612) are reserved for use on Technorama cameras. These lenses that are spectacular performers on the panoramics might not be the best for a 4x5 or 5x7 camera. But since they perform particularly well within the required panoramic area they are put aside for those cameras.

The rest of the lenses, after passing, are then silk screened on the front or rear element with the Linhof logo and are re-packaged for sale as a taking lens. They are not matched to a specific body or camera type.
Lenses that fail the projector test are returned to the manufacturer.

Note that all lenses tested have already passed the lens manufacturer's QC tests before they are sent out to Linhof.

And the premium is well above 10%.

Frank Petronio
14-Aug-2007, 10:52
I'm a nerd... I love those little Angulons, they work great and I defy you to tell me which shots were done with one versus the Grandagons I've also had, both the 90/6.8 and 90/4.5. You just have to stop them down and the IC increases enough to be movable, at least for landscapes.

But by all means, spend more...

Richard Kelham
14-Aug-2007, 13:14
I'm a nerd... I love those little Angulons, they work great and I defy you to tell me which shots were done with one versus the Grandagons I've also had, both the 90/6.8 and 90/4.5. You just have to stop them down and the IC increases enough to be movable, at least for landscapes.




I agree with Frank. Shot straight on @ f22 I can't tell the difference between the Angulon and the Super Angulon in terms of sharpness (I have one of each). Obviously, if I'm doing architectural stuff I'll use the Super, otherwise....



Richard

Ole Tjugen
14-Aug-2007, 13:23
I use a 90/6.8 Angulon for 4x5", unless I need LOTS of movements. I tend to use my 90/8 Super Angulon more often on 5x7" than on 4x5", too.

Search for earlier Angulon threads, and I'm sure you'll find a link to my quick informal comparison of two 90mm Angulons of different age. IMO they are both good enough, although they don't cover 5x7" (for any normal definition of 'cover'".

Brian Ellis
14-Aug-2007, 20:57
No that isn't what Linhof does.

Linhof (and Sinar) both purchased a Rodenstock manufactured Siemens Star projector (a huge floor standing thing that moves on rails). The lens is first examined in a dark box with an indirect light in it to check for particles, bubbles or other things in the glass and between the elements of the lens. If found they try to clean them out before proceeding further with testing. If they can not be cleaned out the lenses are returned to the Schneider or Rodenstock factories. The lenses that pass are then checked for shutter speed accuracy. Those that fail are adjusted or returned. The passed lenses are then mounted in the Rodenstock projector that projects Siemens Star patterns on to a large wall. An examiner stands by the wall and examines the patterns projected. He has a remote control in his hand that allows him to rotate the lens in the projector. By watching the formation and patterns of Siemens Stars he can detect problems with the lenses within the field area that the lens is capable of covering.

Some lenses that test particularly well for a certain format (say 617 or 612) are reserved for use on Technorama cameras. These lenses that are spectacular performers on the panoramics might not be the best for a 4x5 or 5x7 camera. But since they perform particularly well within the required panoramic area they are put aside for those cameras.

The rest of the lenses, after passing, are then silk screened on the front or rear element with the Linhof logo and are re-packaged for sale as a taking lens. They are not matched to a specific body or camera type.
Lenses that fail the projector test are returned to the manufacturer.

Note that all lenses tested have already passed the lens manufacturer's QC tests before they are sent out to Linhof.

And the premium is well above 10%.


Wow. Thanks for the correction. You have more knowledge than I do but the description of what Linhof does that's contained in the Linhof Report I used to own says nothing like that. Of course my Linhof Report was written quite a while ago so presumably things have changed. All the Report talks about is matching the lens to camera and I think something about dismantling and inspecting a lens and shutter. In any event, thanks for the information. As to the 10% premium, that's a typical premium in my experience for Linhof select lenses on the used market.

Brian Ellis
14-Aug-2007, 21:08
Wow. Thanks for the correction. You have more knowledge than I do but the description of what Linhof does that's contained in the Linhof Report I used to own says nothing like that. Of course my Linhof Report was written quite a while ago so presumably things have changed. All the Report talks about is matching the lens to camera and I think something about dismantling and inspecting a lens and shutter. In any event, thanks for the information. As to the 10% premium, that's a typical premium in my experience for Linhof select lenses on the used market.

After posting the above message I found an old thread here in which I quoted the description of what's done to a Linhof select lens from the Linhof Report to which I referred above. Here it is:

The "Linhof Select" system as explained in a Linhof Report circa 1975 involved the purchase of lenses that were then "thoroughly examined and checked to make sure they correspond to the most critical tolerances and to guarantee their perfect functioning with the corresponding Linhof camera." After this process was completed the lens was engraved with the Linhof name and "transferred to the other production departments for final assembly, mounting, and rangefinder coupling" with a particular camera.

Apparently the current process is much more extensive.

pmazolo
18-Aug-2007, 14:15
So, now I got from ebay an Angulon 90/6,8 a Sironar-N 135/5.6 and Fujinon A 240/9. All probably a bit overpriced, but I also value my time...;-) The 240 will probably not fold into my Wista 45SP, but i'll have to live with that (unless someone has a suggestion in the 210-300mm range that will cover 4x5 with some movement, will fold into the camera and has decent quality). I understand the Angulon will allow very little movement and give a bit soft corners....are there any alternatives in the 90mm range at all that could fold into the camera while covering a bit more and having no worse than f6.8 and decent quality??
Rgds
PM

Sheldon N
18-Aug-2007, 14:29
Buy Jack Flesher's 90mm Super Angulon that he just posted for sale. It will give you more movements and better corner performance. I personally would not worry too much about whether the lens will fold in the camera. All you need is one lens that will fold in the camera. The other two can stay in the pack!

Jack's a great guy to deal with, and if he says the lens is laser sharp, it is definitely laser sharp. $475 is a fair price, too.

Frank Petronio
18-Aug-2007, 14:53
A Rodenstock 210/6.8 Geronar in a Copal 1 shutter and flat lensboard will fold because I had one and it was a nice, sharp lens. Look for a later multi-coated one in a late model (black dial) Copal shutter.

Actually I take that back. It folded into a Technika. The SP might be slightly different with the rails...

A Scheider Xenar 210/5.6 might - might fit as well.

Ole Tjugen
18-Aug-2007, 15:01
I don't know about the 210/5.6 Xenar, or if indeed there is such a lens. The older 210mm Xenars were f:4.5, and came in Compound 3 shutters.

But the 210/6.1 Xenar should fit - it's in a Copal 1 shutter.

pmazolo
20-Aug-2007, 13:16
Just got an idea....since I do have six large and very good Symmar and Sironal lenses in the range 90-300mm for my Sinar I could just move some of them to Wista boards....they have no shutters, but shooting ISO 100 and F22-32 or whatever theres not much use of the shutter anyway....this way I have three small lenses withy shutters and that fold into the 45SP (maby not the 250mm) and then I can bring the big super lenses when I have need for that (movements etc)..... /PM

cowanw
21-Aug-2007, 10:48
I have to agree with Bob on this one. The 90mm angulon is near worthless except straight on. If shooting the landscape, the first thing you're going to want to do is give a little front tilt and the little angulon will just not cover....it's small and less expensive but so what if you cannot use it?

I woke up last night thinking what does tilt have to do with coverage. Admittedly my knowledge is book learning only with very little practical experience, so I am looking for insight and education here..I thought coverage had to do with moving the film around the cast image of the lens, by back movements or, relatively, by front movements up down and side to side.
And that the tilt of the lens moved the plane of focus but not the image.
Can some one enlarge on this.
Regards
Bill

Ole Tjugen
21-Aug-2007, 11:36
Think of "coverage" as a cone extending back from the lens. The point is in the lens, and the film at the wide end.

If you move the tip of the cone around, the rest of it has to follow. So moving the lens or the film has the same effect - as long as you don't tilt any of them. If you tilt the lens you also tilt the whole cone. Tilt the lens down a little, and the rear of the cone moves upwards.

On the other hand I often find that if I'm using front tilt (with a wide-angle lens) to bring the foreground into focus, I want more foreground. So a forward tilt and a slight front drop brings the cone of coverage neatly back on the film area. :)

pmazolo
22-Aug-2007, 02:25
OK, now have all the lenses here. The Sironar-N 135mmm was great and fold into the SP with caps no problem. The Angulon 90mm folds nicely too, but I got a bad lens with separation and bad shutter from ebay so I need to send it back (the seller has agreed, and has 99% reputation on 2200 deals, so I guess I can hope he really refunds me....via paypal or how does it work??.....any commenst on this? would you risk send it or just try to fix it?). The Fujinon 240mm almost folds without lenscaps, its so close it would be easy just to remove some metal from the rail and get it to work I think....but for now it folds nicely with caps if turned backwards. Hmmm....will have to get another 90mm from ebay now.....or.....

The 90mm could use a recessed board for easier movements (plus a wide angle bellows), but it works without too.

The 240mm could use a bit of bellows/rail extension, it can now focus on 1.1m no closer.

/PM

Bob Salomon
22-Aug-2007, 04:02
While you can buy a Wista extension bed and bellows if you only need a little more extension you could save a lot of weight and money by just mounting the 240 on the Wista exttended lensboard set.

cowanw
22-Aug-2007, 11:16
[ If you tilt the lens you also tilt the whole cone. Tilt the lens down a little, and the rear of the cone moves upwards.


So It does. Live and learn every day! I set up my 90mm and paid attention to that and it does move about 2mm through the range of tilt that my linhof has to offer.
My 90mm is a leitmeyer, not even as quality a lens as an angulon.
Does the Angulon 90 not even have enough coverage for tilt? the Schneider site suggests that the angulon 90 has about 10mm of movement at 9X12
Regards
Bill