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marbrink
24-Jul-2007, 13:41
I'm new to large format photography. I'm currently shooting with a Leica M8 which I like and I've shot with 35mm and digital SLR's earlier. I'm thinking of getting a LF camera for architecture and planned shots. I'm not a machine gun shooter so I like the idea of LF and it might fit my work very well. But I'm sure 6x9 is enough for me as I'm not a technical geek and I love the idea of roll film on a LF camera. I've also been thinking of a panorama camera (6x12 or 6x17 Linhof or Horseman).
What would you recommend for me? My requirements are..

- Ease of use
- High quality (I'm used to Leica :) )
- 6x9 roll film
- Compact and not to heavy
- Easy to bring with me and set up

I would want a wide angle (24-35mm) 35mm equivalent lens for the camera. Any recommendations here?

Please also give me other good advice if you have any! :)

Dan Fromm
24-Jul-2007, 13:59
What's your budget? Will you buy used equipment?

Peter Lewin
24-Jul-2007, 14:00
My recommendation, in terms of overall flexibility, would be to get a 4x5, and a 6x9 rollfilm back, rather than a 6x9 camera. The other approach would be a 6x9 model from a modular system - now I'm a bit out of my element, but I believe that Arca Swiss has 6x9 backs in their system, which due to the modularity would let you change formats if you ever decide to in the future. Linhoff makes a 6x9 but I don't know if you can change the format. Arca, Linhoff, and Sinar are all in the "Leica" class (both quality and cost!) Again, personally I would go for a less expensive 4x5 with something like the Calumet 6x9 "slide in" rollfilm holder (which I sometimes use on my Canham DCL45, and used initially on a Sinar F). Lenses are a little problematic, because something really wide angle on 6x9 probably wouldn't cover a larger format; you're probably looking at something shorter than the 80-90mm range which is as wide as I've gone on 4x5.

marbrink
24-Jul-2007, 14:06
Dan,
I've not a set budget, but if it's cheaper it's nice. At the same time I want good quality. New or used doesn't matter. Used is always nice so I can save some money. Thanks!

Peter,
Good idea! But aren't 4x5 cameras bigger and more expensive? benefit would be that I could shoot panorama with a 4x5 camera. Can I use a 6x17 back on a 4x5 or just 6x12? Thanks!

Ole Tjugen
24-Jul-2007, 14:10
4x5" cameras are a little bigger, but they're also so much more common that a good used one is cheaper than a similar camera in 6x9"!

There are 6x17 backs for 4x5" cameras, and they're easier to find than the same for 5x7"...

Ron Marshall
24-Jul-2007, 14:20
The aspect ratios of 35mm and 6x9 are very close, so you can multiply by the ratio of the format diagonals to convert focal lengths. 35mm has a diagonal of 43mm, 6x9 has a diagonal of about 105mm.

So a 24mm on 35mm is equivalent to 58 on 6x9 and a 35mm on 35mm is equivalent to an 85 on 6x9.

Rob_5419
24-Jul-2007, 14:33
I'm currently shooting with a Leica M8 which I like and I've shot with 35mm and digital SLR's earlier. I'm thinking of getting a LF camera for architecture and planned shots.

Lol!

What do you call the shots from the digicam then?

I like 6x9cm format - have you looked at cheap options like a Graflex Century; mid-priced ones like a Fuji GSW690 III with a 65mm lens (equivalent to around 28mm on a 35mm camera), or a Silvestri H? They are all high quality, although the Graflex is more a budget/vintage? camera. The Fuji is reknown as the Texas Leica - for being the bigger is better and loud! version of the Leica baby. 6x9cm cameras are in abundance, although if you're not sure of 6x9cm, 6x12cm or 6x17cm, then it sounds like a proper LF camera like a 5x4" camera with 6x9cm option would be more flexible.

Personally I like the Silvestri H - it's portable, easy to use, and has huge wide-angle options, if not the best range for its size ratio.

Gordon Moat
24-Jul-2007, 14:36
At probably the top of the quality heap is ALPA (http://www.alpa.ch), who offer a few cameras with shift capability and high quality lenses, in a relatively compact size. Very difficult to find on the used market, and probably the most expensive choice. Several options on film sizes, including 6x9.

Horseman offer a 6x12 and 6x9, both sometimes available used at okay price levels. There is some similar cameras from Linhof, like their 6x12 Technorama, but at higher price levels. There are some good deals sometimes for used Fuji 6x9 cameras, with the benefit of them being a rangefinder focus camera; sort of like a giant Leica. Most of these offer no movements, though I think Horseman makes a newer version with shift capability.

Then there are the newer choices of Fotoman and Gaoersi. I think one of the Gaoersi cameras allows switching the film format. Somewhat affordable new, since you can buy a used lens to fit onto these bodies. The downside is that you must set-up and calibrate your own lens to the body.

Then there is the Fuji GX680, with many good used choices. While this is a 6x8 camera, the film area proportion is very close to that of some 6x9 cameras (less than 1cm difference). These are large and heavy, but allow SLR viewing through the lens. This series of cameras also allows some limited movements.

Last choice would be what others have recommended, a 4x5 camera with a 6x9 rollfilm back. Shop carefully and you can find a reasonably portable set-up. Sometimes cheap if you can find a Crown Graphic to adapt, then add on a rollfilm back. More expensive would be a Linhof with rangefinder focusing, though this would meet your Leica quality expectations (other than weight, since a Linhof is heavy).

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio (http://www.allgstudio.com)

marbrink
24-Jul-2007, 14:37
Thanks Ole and Ron!

marbrink
24-Jul-2007, 14:41
Lol!

What do you call the shots from the digicam then?

I like 6x9cm format - have you looked at cheap options like a Graflex Century; mid-priced ones like a Fuji GSW690 III with a 65mm lens (equivalent to around 28mm on a 35mm camera), or a Silvestri H? They are all high quality, although the Graflex is more a budget/vintage? camera. The Fuji is reknown as the Texas Leica - for being the bigger is better and loud! version of the Leica baby. 6x9cm cameras are in abundance, although if you're not sure of 6x9cm, 6x12cm or 6x17cm, then it sounds like a proper LF camera like a 5x4" camera with 6x9cm option would be more flexible.

Personally I like the Silvestri H - it's portable, easy to use, and has huge wide-angle options, if not the best range for its size ratio.

Thanks for the advice!
I think you know what I'm saying. I take some planned shots with the Leica for sure, but the idea with those cameras is always to have them with you and use them spontaineously. They are somewhat an extension of your eye in everyday life.

Walter Calahan
24-Jul-2007, 15:09
Arca-Swiss

http://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=7

Peter Lewin
24-Jul-2007, 15:32
Marbrink: Reviewing the posts raises a question about your requirements in architectural shooting (which you indicate is part of your motivation for moving up in format): namely, do you want swings and tilts for verticals and horizontals, or merely the larger format? I had assumed you needed the camera movements, which is why I suggested the 4x5 (or modular 6x9) approach. If you do not need movements, or perhaps only limited lens rise/fall, certainly the "fixed lens" or "shift lens" options mentioned would actually be more convenient (i.e. more portable, potential for hand holding vs. tripod, etc.) Also, you are correct that the 4x5 plus rollfilm holder approach will be a bit heavier and bulkier than a dedicated 6x9, but as always, one is trading ultimate flexibility vs. a more specific-to-the-problem approach. One last option not yet mentioned would be the Hasselblad flexbody (there was recently one listed in the FS section); this was Hasselblad's response to architectural photography needs, combining their lenses (not sure if it was all H'blad lenses or only special ones) and 6x6 magazines with some lens movement.

marbrink
24-Jul-2007, 15:52
Thanks Gordon, Walter and Peter.

Peter,
The reason for trying out 6x9 is I want to try a larger format + have the movements. The flexbody might be nice but 6x9 film is 50% larger + I don't find the square format as good for allround use. If I was to turn for a MF solution I would probably go for the Mamiya 67 II with tilt/shift adapter instead.
I like the quality of the Leica wides and you can really get excellent quality out of the M8 or an analogue M with fine grained film, but you don't have the movements and have to turn to Photoshop. While fixing it in Photoshop is very convenient and you have great control, you loose a little resolution.

Jeremy Moore
24-Jul-2007, 16:13
If I was to turn for a MF solution I would probably go for the Mamiya 67 II with tilt/shift adapter instead.

How would you see the results of tilting/shifting with a rangefinder camera?

David A. Goldfarb
24-Jul-2007, 16:18
The easiest, most flexible option is to look for a 4x5" camera and rollfilm back. There are lots of them out there that can do what you want without getting involved with a more specialized and expensive 6x9 camera, and you'll have the option of using 4x5" (or 6x12 or even 6x17) when you want to go wider or when you just want the extra resolution of a larger format.

If you are mainly interested in wide lenses for architecturals, you might consider a camera like the Cambo Wide DS. The helical mounts make the lenses more expensive than with a camera that uses a bellows, but it is quite compact, and gives you rise and shift, which are the main movements you would use for architecture with wide lenses.

marbrink
24-Jul-2007, 16:40
Jeremy,
I meant the Mamiya RZ67 II.

David,
Seems like 4x5 might be the way to go.
The Cambo wide DS also is an interesting option. Maybe a good option if I'll add a digital back later?

Ash
24-Jul-2007, 17:09
You've a lot of great advice so far, I can add little.

Of course I haven't even received mine yet, but the RazzleDog polaroid conversions may be an option. It's a rangefinder camera, and I have purchased mine (still halfway through manufacture) as I love using my old M2.

Having a back similar to the Graflok back, you can use 6x9 and 6x12 backs with ease. Parallax corrected viewfinder is also half the fun. You'll want to contact Dean Jones direct. He might have a custom job that would suit your needs.

( http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~razzle/Custom_Shop/custom_shop.html )

Ken Lee
24-Jul-2007, 17:53
Since you mentioned the L word: unless you are planning to trek, or have a physical limitation, get a metal modular monorail camera, such as Sinar or Arca Swiss. Once you have gotten accustomed to sublime build quality, anything else will seem like... a toy.

I briefly discuss the Sinar here (http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/tech/tech.html), and give some helpful links.

Make sure that the camera will not be constrained at the short end. Depending on how short your lenses, you may need a bag bellows, and a camera that can retain its range of movements when standards are close to one another.

To get top image quality, roll film holders need to keep the film flat, and not all holders are created equal in this regard. Ask about them, or search earlier posts about them. No sense getting great lenses with adequate coverage, only to have the film "bowed".

Jeremy Moore
24-Jul-2007, 18:01
Jeremy,
I meant the Mamiya RZ67 II.

Ahh, gotcha! I was scratching my head thinking of the Mamiya 7II rangefinder camera w/ a tilt/shift.

David A. Goldfarb
24-Jul-2007, 18:27
Just about any 4x5" camera with a Graflok/International style should be easy to add a digital back to, if you decide to make that move at some point.

Dean Jones
24-Jul-2007, 21:22
Definitely the 'Texas Leica' especially the GSW690 is a winner....equivalent to 28mm on 35mm, brilliant rangefinder and rock solid. I have a GW690 with the 90mm EBC....all I can say is WOW! :eek:

If you want perfect sharpness, don't require movements and a camera that's quite similar to your Leica in operation, then the Fuji's the best bet. I scan the negs in a Nikon Coolscan 8000 and the results blow me away. I going to try shooting two frames back to back and scan them accordingly....the 8000's stepper motor is limited to 6x9, so I'll have to stitch the frames. I have not come across anything much sharper than the Fujinon EBC lenses. :)

Cheers.

http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~razzle/

ChadLanc
24-Jul-2007, 23:03
if you want one that your grandkids can use.. get an ebony

Emmanuel BIGLER
25-Jul-2007, 03:36
If movements are required, the choice in 4x5" cameras is much wider than dedicated 6x9 cameras. All 4x5 cameras can take a rollfilm back the only limiations come when you want to use short focal lengths with full movements as decribed below, where a 6x9 monorail is more comfortable.
I have the Arca Swiss 6x9 and it can be expanded to larger formats, but used Arca Swiss 6x9 are hard to find on the used market.

I would want a wide angle (24-35mm) 35mm

It is very easy to find the 6x9 equivalent focal length of a 35mm lens since both formats, the 24x36mm and the 6x9 on roolfilm 56x82 share almost the same aspect ratio close to 1.5 to 1.
So you just have to multiply or divide by the ratio of the diagonals, 100/43 = 2.3 or 43/100 = 0.43 and you are done.
The equivalent of the 35mm is the 75 mm or the 80. I have the 6.8/75 Rodenstock Grandagon-N, (a discontinued lens) compact and perfect for 6x9 use, you'll never see the edge of the image circle in 6x9 ;) Schneider has a range of 75 mm lenses and a super aspherical 80mm (Several 75mm are discontinued), this focal length of 75 has been offered by all manufacturers for a long time.
You can even find vintage Zeiss 2.8/80 planars or Schneider xenotars in 80mm focal length mounted from press camera, but they'll just cover 6x9 without movements.

Dan Fromm on this forum is a specialist of 6x9 lenses, he has a lot information to share ;)

The equivalent of the 24mm in 6x9 is the 55mm or the 58.
I have the Rodenstock Apo-grandagon 55 which is a superb lens. Schneider has a 58. Both lenses will cover 4x5 so you can some day re-use them as extreme WA lenses on a larger format.

The equivalent of the 21 is the 45 or the 47. Again both German manufacturers offer superb lenses in those focal lengths dedicated to 6x7-6x8-6x9-6x12, they do not cover 4x5".

Aender Brepsom
25-Jul-2007, 04:45
Many members here have given you a few good reasons to invest in a 4x5 camera with a 6x9 rollfilm back. They are absolutely right, but if you are really sure that you will never want to use the larger format, then I would strongly recommend having a look at Ebony's 6x9 cameras (like the excellent wide-angle field camera SW23 or the more versatile 23S). They are quite easy to use and especially the SW23 allows the use of very wide-angle lenses without any hassle. They are lightweight (1,3 kg for the SW23) and small. I am very satified with mine.

marbrink
25-Jul-2007, 14:14
Thanks for all the input! A lot of input during short time makes you a bit confused. LOL Arca, Ebony and Linhof seems to be the closest bets at the moment. I'm planning a digital back in the future, now that prices are getting lower on them. So a camera that integrates nicely with a digital back is of course of high interest.

Mattg
26-Jul-2007, 02:34
I have owned an Ebony SW23S and now an Arca 6x9 Metric and can recommend both of them.

The SW23S combines the best features of the SW23 and the 23S so would be the most flexible choice in the small Ebony cameras. It's light, very well made and the swing away ground glass back is very handy. It handles wide angle lenses very well.

The Arca is even better in build and precision and is a true system that can be expanded to larger formats. To be honest that is somewhat of a moot point because the conversion kits are as expensive as many larger format cameras. What you pay for is very high precision and stability over time.

If you are really interested in converting to a digital back later you need to find some really clued up people to talk to about your camera choice, people who use digital systems often. The manufacturers / distributors of the backs and of the cameras would be my first stop. Arca and Linhof seem to be pretty safe but talk to Ebony about adapting their 6x9 cameras as well.

Try to use the cameras you are interested in before purchasing, maybe some LFF members in Northern Europe. Everyone gives this advice but it's so true that each system involves a different way of working, all these cameras have limitations and some you will not want to live with. You might even want to purchase one of the cheaper 4x5 options mentioned above just so you can get used to using movements, that way you'll have a better idea of what you really need when it comes to buying an expensive camera.

archivue
26-Jul-2007, 04:31
Buying new, i will go for an Arca Swiss Fline 4x5 140... smaller than the previous ones, and then you can ad a linhof super rollex back.

Buying second hand, i will go for an Arca swiss Fline 69 with Mamiya 6x8 motor drive back.

perry cas
6-Aug-2007, 22:33
I have a 4x5 camera, a Crown Graphic and 4 lenses. I also use a Da Yi MF back with masks for 6x,6,7,91& open at 12. Now i like it, the flexibility of those sizes plus 4x5 for those things that are must too big when you are right up close that wont fit into even a 65mm view.
BUT. ITs a bit on the heavy side (I made up a special pack, all the stuff plus a lightweight tripod adds up to about 10kg) if you are lugging it away from the car.
AND Shooting in low light can be a real bastard, esp with a 65mm lense. the vignetting at wide open is pretty bad. While I have stops for the 135, the 180 and the 475 (! yep) they take care of infinty, and I use the thing for landscape primarilly, but cant organise one for the 65mm - and its the one I like best.
I have just come back from a month of trudging about Java with this as well as my M6 outfit and Man I have had carrying all this stuff. I am thinking about the Gaoersi, but the old Fujis suggest themselves too. In one form or another.
So for weight and flexibility have a good think about what you are going to do with it.

Wayne Crider
8-Aug-2007, 20:13
Architecture is a pretty big field. It can be interiors and exteriors, and cover industrial, agricultural and commercial applications and private housing. To cover all of it you could have a few different lenses and a use for bag belows and regular bellows. Since your interested in digital shooting, work backwards so to say and see what's available in LF digital outfits. Here's the betterlight site, http://www.betterlight.com/ with a picture of a monorail with back inserted, not attached. Here's some PhaseOne info thru a digital site. http://www.digital-photography.org/PhaseOne_4x5_in_digital_cameras/PhaseOne_Digital_Camera.htm

Of the cameras that would seem best for the type of work, Arca Swiss, Sinar, Cambo and Linhof would have to be looked at as the leaders, but exterior shots could be done with just about anything; Even a Graphic. Still a monorail would be more versatile, especially one that is yaw free and has dof calculations via the rail. The cheapest entry point for a very good and adaptable camera might be a AS Discovery, if you could find one that is.

al olson
9-Aug-2007, 06:29
Hi marbrink,

I am surprised that so far no one has mentioned the Linhof Super Technika. It is a 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 smaller version of the 4x5 big brother Technika with most of the front standard movements and all of the rear movement of the larger Technikas.

This is a rangefinder camera with built-in viewfinder that takes the standard 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 double-sided film holders, the Grafmatic holders, and accepts the Linhof Rollex 120 film back (Super Technika version) that can still be found on the internet. Black & white sheet film, however, is available in only a few emulsions and color is available only for roll film.

A complete "kit" has a wide angle, normal, and telephoto lens along with a cam that Linhof ground specifically for those lenses in that camera body. The cam contains the serial numbers of the three lenses as well as that of the camera body.

I was fortunate to find one cammed for 65mm, 105mm, and 180mm Schneider lenses. Linhof also cammed them for Zeiss and several of the other high quality lenses. All had to pass Linhof's more restrictive tests.

It is a little on the heavy side, built like a tank, but certainly gives you the Leica plus quality. I use mine primarily for viewfinder shooting with sheet film, but occasionally I will do some front standard movements, using the GG to compose and focus, for closeups when I am out in the field.

It is worth taking a look...

Wayne Crider
9-Aug-2007, 20:09
Al I think the reason it wasn't mentioned was that it's a pricey little kit and the poster was looking to save some money. It's nice tho.

neil poulsen
10-Aug-2007, 05:48
I'm thinking the Arca is a good direction. It's expensive, but I get the impression that you want a very high quality camera. Arca is expandable, as others have noted, and it has some nice features for digital.

For example, I believe you can get a sliding back that has a ground glass on one side and the digital back on the other. As you go from focus to expose, the sliding back allows you to slide the digital back into place to expose the image. The point of this back is that the sensor doesn't have to be removed to use the camera, so there's less opportunity for dust to collect on the sensor's surface.

If you want to try your idea out on an inexpensive film camera, consider a Sinar F series camera. They can be found on EBay for under $300 sometimes, and I've often thought they would make a good oversized camera for 6x9 backs. They also have format kits that come up on EBay, and they're not that expensive, either. I don't think these cameras pack well, though.

venchka
10-Aug-2007, 11:11
Mamiya 7II with 43mm lens, or Bronica 645 rangefinders? You might feel right at home with one of those & the M8. Otherwise, like many have said, 4x5 field camera & rollfilm backs. Lenses for 4x5 are readily available. You can go as wide as your budget allows. Used 4x5 are less expensive than and arguably better than Leitz lenses.

MJSfoto1956
10-Aug-2007, 12:26
I would strongly recommend having a look at Ebony's 6x9 cameras (like the excellent wide-angle field camera SW23 or the more versatile 23S). They are quite easy to use and especially the SW23 allows the use of very wide-angle lenses without any hassle. They are lightweight (1,3 kg for the SW23) and small. I am very satified with mine.

Yes the baby Ebony's are lovely indeed. Lance Keimig wrote up a great review of his SW23 in the 3rd issue of MAGNAchrom magazine -- free for you to register and download. With incredible light weight and full movements you will be a very happy camper with this fabulous camera. Even though I own both a Mamiya 7 system as well as a Technikardan 45s, at times I lust after Lance's Ebony! ;)

Narcissist
14-Aug-2007, 04:48
While I don't shoot architecture (do landscapes) I was in a similar position a while ago.

In the end I went for a 4x5 Ebony with 4x5 to 6x9 format reducer for the flexibility to shoot 4x5 at some point. The cost and weight isn't really too different and the format reducer has the swing out groundglass just like the 6x9 Ebony's.

So far I am very happy with it :)

Bob Salomon
14-Aug-2007, 06:18
I'm new to large format photography. I'm currently shooting with a Leica M8 which I like and I've shot with 35mm and digital SLR's earlier. I'm thinking of getting a LF camera for architecture and planned shots. I'm not a machine gun shooter so I like the idea of LF and it might fit my work very well. But I'm sure 6x9 is enough for me as I'm not a technical geek and I love the idea of roll film on a LF camera. I've also been thinking of a panorama camera (6x12 or 6x17 Linhof or Horseman).
What would you recommend for me? My requirements are..

- Ease of use
- High quality (I'm used to Leica :) )
- 6x9 roll film
- Compact and not to heavy
- Easy to bring with me and set up

I would want a wide angle (24-35mm) 35mm equivalent lens for the camera. Any recommendations here?

Please also give me other good advice if you have any! :)

The Linhof TechniKardan 69S fits your requirements. The 45S would be even more versatile.

ic-racer
14-Aug-2007, 21:04
Horseman made some great 6x9 cameras. 900 series, VH series and the 'helical focus' SW series without bellows.

HB_Chris
15-Aug-2007, 08:30
Personally, I'm pretty fond of the 4x5 Arcas. If you don't have to move quick and don't mind the weight, a view camera is so much more versatile than any of the medium format cameras.

I shoot 4x5 film in Readyload (less and less) 120 film in Horseman backs 6x7 and 6x12 and a Phase 1 back. The Arca will focus down to 35mm, possibly 28 and very few view cameras can do that. Now, though, I would buy the F Metric over the F Line, especially for the digi back. These dang sensors are tough to keep sharp when shifting wide lenses.