PDA

View Full Version : Sticky saggy bellows are killing my buzz.



rivermandan
24-Jul-2007, 08:05
When I open the camera, the bellows are literally stuck together and have to peel apart, much like pulling a sweaty body off of a leather couch. In a few areas, this seems to have actually pulled a few peices of the shiny surface. The sag is also somewhat annoying, though I can't think of a possible fix for that problem.

Any idea on how I should clean this and what I should clean it with?

Jim Rice
24-Jul-2007, 09:10
At the risk of highjacking the OP's thread, does anyone know of any sort of self-adhesive tab with a small ring to combat bellows sag?

Ole Tjugen
24-Jul-2007, 09:22
Like leather couches, you could try furniture polish.

One of my cameras suffers from saggy bellows with 240mm to 360mm lenses, so I use a cigarette pack under the bellows to prop it up whenever I use these focal lengths on it. That's one thing I never leave home without, anyway...

Nick_3536
24-Jul-2007, 10:06
At the risk of highjacking the OP's thread, does anyone know of any sort of self-adhesive tab with a small ring to combat bellows sag?

You want to run a rod across? How about the self sticking velcro? You could loop it over and turn it into a ring.

Ash
24-Jul-2007, 10:06
You can always make a small wire brace that attaches by tension (say, out of a wire coat hanger for good measure) to sit under the bellows and lift the sag?

As for sticky bellows, that probably means they have gunk on them, and will need a clean. wipe them clean with a damp cloth or furniture wipes (leather *should* be waterproof enough to handle a damp cloth) then a bit of polish over the top.

If you're missing shiny bits, check for pinholes too.

Rob_5419
24-Jul-2007, 10:13
When I open the camera, the bellows are literally stuck together and have to peel apart, much like pulling a sweaty body off of a leather couch. In a few areas, this seems to have actually pulled a few peices of the shiny surface. The sag is also somewhat annoying, though I can't think of a possible fix for that problem.

Any idea on how I should clean this and what I should clean it with?

Sounds like what I had on my Gandolfi before I restored it properly. I'm presuming you're using proper leather bellows and not plastic-imitation.

Firstly you need a leather cleaner, and then the conditioner:

http://www.jeffersequine.com/ssc/product.asp?CID=1&pf_id=11906

http://www.carcareonline.com/viewarticle.aspx?art=7

I haven't found any great difference between products - probably the cheapest remoisturising conditioner since you can use lots of it would be best. Do it slowly in several layers over several hours to penetrate the bellows (that stops further hardening and cracking).

Once you've gone through the process of conditioning the bellows, then go to your local kitchen accessories store. They sell a kind of chicken wire, with a circular hole on one end of the firm rod, and a sharp spikey end. You can use this to loop a strong piece of fishing rod around the centre of the bellows and lassoo it to the rigid wire, which can be connected to either a temporary or permanent clamp/notch/ on the top of the rear standard. Around the supporting thread on the underbase of the bellows, use a piece of folded black card to spread the pressure of the thread. Just trim the top wire with a set of cutting pliers after bending.

Ralph Barker
24-Jul-2007, 10:43
Sag is a game that old people play (slowly) - as in, "Sag, you're it." ;)

As others have essentially suggested, use a cleaner appropriate for the actual material out of which the bellows are made. Leather cleaner and reconditioner, for example, might not be appropriate for some synthetic materials, and versa vica.

My bellows are way younger than I am, so they don't sag much yet. But, when they eventually do, I like the prop-up idea better than the ring/rod approach. One less unwieldy thing (the rod) to bother with.

Rob_5419
24-Jul-2007, 10:46
Hi Ralph,

I'm hoping that if I hang my bellows as I do, they'll sag no more.

I like Ole's practical idea of using cigarette cartons. If I smoke anymore, no amount of restoration is going to stop me from sagging over.

rivermandan
24-Jul-2007, 11:13
Oh my, I didn't even check for light leaks as the seller I bought it off of has great feedback and said they were light tight... It turns out that it looks like a clear night sky inside :( Strangely enough the light leaks are not where the material has peeled, but in the corners. Do I even want to know how much replacement bellows for this cost?

Ash
24-Jul-2007, 11:37
It will depend on what country you're in, as I only know of CameraBellows in the UK, but there are meant to be a few manufacturers in America (help me out here Jim :) ).

I think you should contact the seller about the camera though, light tight means light tight.

Bob Gentile
24-Jul-2007, 12:02
"... Strangely enough the light leaks are not where the material has peeled, but in the corners..."
That's to be expected.




"... Do I even want to know how much replacement bellows for this cost...?"
In the U.S., two sources come to mind: Western Bellows (Etiwanda, CA Tel. 909-980-0606) and Turner Bellows (http://www.turnerbellows.com/). Either should be able to give you ballpark estimate.

But... as Ash said, "light tight means light tight."

MIke Sherck
24-Jul-2007, 12:05
Leaks in the corners are expected: that's where all the wear is, with the bellows being folded and unfolded all the time. The corners get the most exercise and wear out quickest.

If the seller said the bellows were light-tight and they aren't then they should either take the camera back and refund your money or buy you a new bellows. Western Bellows will probably want in the $150-$200 range for a new bellows for this; Camera Bellows in the UK may actually be a bit less, including shipping, and provide what is by all reports a great product.

If you can't come to terms with the seller, all is not lost. The simplest and quickest way of temporarily fixing bellows with pinholes is tape -- electrician's tape, duct tape, something like that. While not a permanent fix, you'd be surprised how long it can last (your mileage may vary.) But if it looks as bad as you indicate, a new bellows is definately warranted.

Mike

rivermandan
24-Jul-2007, 14:23
Okay, so here is the deal. The seller ended the auction early and charged me $465US shipped for the camera, out of sympathy for what I was shooting on (my old crown). tachiharas have been going for close to $500 for beaten up versions, so it was pretty nice of him to do that. I sincerely doubt he knew of the light leaks despite the fact that you can see them in clear daylight, so I don't know how to go about asking him this.

Do you guys think requesting him to pay for a bellows repair kit would be acceptable? I really don't want to send the camera back, take a $100 hit on shipping/duties, just to go camera shopping again.

Rob_5419
24-Jul-2007, 14:37
Yes ;)

Jim Jones
24-Jul-2007, 15:53
I tend to fix minor problems myself, and would scrub a thin application of black artist's acrylic paint into the inside corners of the bellows with an old soft toothbrush. This might not work if the interior is plastic. Others have found other materials that work well at fixing pinholes.

Wilbur Wong
24-Jul-2007, 18:25
Since one of the concerns seems to be light leaks, I think a new bellows may well be in order. In regard to the "sticking" problem, I would guess that the bellows either are of synthetic material or have a synthetic finish. Nearly any hydrocarbon based plastic or whatever short of super stabilizers, continue to out-gas or out exude something for probably decades. If what is exuded is not fully polymerized, the results may be a sticky film.

If that were the case, the only hope may be trying to seal the surfaces which are sticking together. However if the polymers are breaking down due to age, that might possibly be a losing battle. . . .

Brian Ellis
24-Jul-2007, 21:11
I carried around an empty 4x5 film box and used it to prop up the sagging bellows on a Deardorff 8x10.

Corners are where pin holes usually live so the fact that your light leaks are there rather than where the covering is peeling off isn't surprising. You might be able to get by with the existing bellows for a while if you drape your dark cloth over the bellows or if you patch the pin holes but IMHO you really should replace the bellows. Once pin holes start they don't usually stop so you'll have to be doing the flashlight test all the time or run the risk of ruining some negatives. If your camera is a 4x5 a ball park estimate of a new bellows from either of the two places mentioned above is $200, $300 if it's an 8x10.

If your seller said the bellows were free of leaks and they aren't you might consider returning the camera or at least get the seller to bear a part of the cost of new bellows. If your camera is a 4x5 Tachihara the new bellows is going to cost roughly half again what you probably paid for the camera.

David A. Goldfarb
25-Jul-2007, 05:00
A couple of solutions for bellows sag--

Put something under the bellows like a sponge or something of appropriate size that you already have in your camera bag, like a lens case, light meter case, etc.

I like having tabs that gather the bellows toward the front standard. On some cameras there are tabs with metal rings at 1/3 and 2/3 the bellows length, and they latch onto a catch on the front standard. On one of my cameras, I added tabs at about half the bellows length and cords with three loops in them to latch onto the knobs on the front standard. With a tapered bellows, this lets you use mostly the wide end of the bellows with short lenses, reducing the potential for bellows flare as well as sagging that could cause the bellows to impinge on the image area.

Brian Ellis
25-Jul-2007, 06:58
"tachiharas have been going for close to $500 for beaten up versions, so it was pretty nice of him to do that."

A brand new Tachihara costs $595. I bought a like-new, absolute mint Tachihara on ebay for $500 a couple months ago. I think you're being too generous with your seller here, especially if the pin holes are obvious. FWIW, when I've been interested in used cameras on ebay and the seller says the bellows are light tight I ask if the seller has performed the flashlight-in-a-dark-room test. If they haven't I ask them to do it. If they won't I don't bid on the camera. IMHO a new bellows will add way to much to the cost of a camera to just bid and hope they're o.k.

rivermandan
25-Jul-2007, 12:09
Wilbur Wong wins the prize; the synthetic material itself is simply giving up on life. I don't think patching these up is worth the trouble, as most of you have already pointed out

http://image.bayimg.com/baecnaabj.jpg

Emails have been sent for quotes on bellows to camerabellows.com, one guy in hawaii, and one localish (toronto) custom bellow manufacturer. I don't know if any of them will be able to make bellows that will squish up as tight as these bellows; they have a draw of almost 400mm yet fold up shorter then 20mm.

I am eyeing a wista bellows on ebay that is $59.99US. the only problem is that the large end of the bellows is about 1cm too small, which will most likely cut into the film frame.

I don't even really know why I am telling you guys this, sorry for the rant. Do you guys know of any other sources for cheap bellows? I hate the word "cheap" just as much as the next guy, but I don't think the seller would be okay with me requesting him to pay for a $200 set of bellows.

Nick_3536
25-Jul-2007, 13:05
I'm not sure what format this is but I'm guessing 4x5? Some of the China/Hong Kong sellers seem to be selling new Linhof fitting bellows 4x5 and 5x7 for not much money. At least relative to what others can charge for bellows.

http://cgi.ebay.com/For-Linhof-5x7-Technikardan-Bellows-New_W0QQitemZ220133459902QQihZ012QQcategoryZ29981QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The 4x5s are cheaper. I've no idea on the quality of the bellows. I don't know if they'll fit. You'll want to ask the seller plenty of questions.

Hopefully some body else here has bought those bellows and they'll comment one way or the other.

Rob_5419
25-Jul-2007, 13:26
I'm presuming you're using proper leather bellows and not plastic-imitation.


Clearly as you've only identified late on in your post that your bellows are synthetic, you have an even greater issue to take up with the seller then.

The synthetic bellows are not original, and if the seller has not identified that the camera was modified or altered, nor that there were pinholes, then errr...you have a problem.

rivermandan
25-Jul-2007, 13:54
Nick, those bellows are a good 5cm to wide, though I've been checking this sellers bellows and waiting for a response. If it helps, the dimensions are

front
outside 110 X 110
inside 90 X 90

back
outside 150 X 150
inside 130 X 130

400mm fully extended, compact to less then 20mm


this is the auction, it didn't state that the camera was or wasn't modified, and I doubt the seller really knew it was to begin with

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=120142132203&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=002

I sent him a message detailing the problem and asked him to propose a solution. Thanks a million for your input guys, without you I would be dead in the water with a sponge for a camera.

Rob_5419
25-Jul-2007, 14:02
for that price, it's actually okay to replace the bellows.

Can you not just get a pair of Wista bellows and use? I don't know much about Tachis - maybe someone else can chime in. You should be able to get an off the shelf bellows, unless the bellows are fixed, right?

rivermandan
25-Jul-2007, 14:09
that wasn't the price, he ended it early for the agreed price of $465US shipped. the wista bellows are about 10mm smaller on the inside, and I it looks as if they would cut into the film frame. Now that I think about that... it makes no sense.

Rob_5419
25-Jul-2007, 14:14
I see what you mean. I'm sure someone with a Tachihara could point you in the right direction, although it makes sense to take up the issues with the seller. He seems honest and it probably is a genuine mistake. In which case, he'll have no qualms about refunding you $100-200 for replacing the bellows ;)

Neal Shields
25-Jul-2007, 14:19
You don't seem to have left feedback yet so the seller should be willing to stand behind the listing's claim of light tight. However, at least some of this transaction seems to have occured "outside" Ebay so you don't have much recourse except to leave negative feedback. I.E. you say you paid $465 and the listing shows $179.50 therefore you certainly can't go to Ebay for "buyer protection".

I am always reluctant to deal with Ebay sellers that offer to mistate the selling price to reduce customs duty, for example, because if they are willing to commit a federal offence to make a little extra, what chance do I have with them?

rivermandan
25-Jul-2007, 14:44
Just got a reply from the seller. He suggested he would help compensate the cost of sealing them. I replied that they had to be replaced, and suggested he cover the cost of those wista bellows while I take care of the rest. waiting for his response. he still seems to be a good chap, I have my fingers crossed that his good nature remains.

Rob_5419
25-Jul-2007, 14:49
Yup - I looked at his feedback, and he seems to be a multi-gadget seller who isn't into the geekiness and detail of field cameras. Looks like a genuine mistake - he might be in for a surprise to find out how much it costs to repair the bellows and settle for refunding you with the cost instead. If you do go for a set of Wista bellows, a contribution refund for a set of bag bellows instead of rigid bellows might be a better substitute than outright replacement with the same design of bellows: you get to use everything from 47mm upto 180mm whereas with the bellows you have, you are limited in pivoting due to the bellows design.

Certainly with my Wista, I find I rarely ever need the original bellows.

Nick_3536
25-Jul-2007, 14:56
Nick, those bellows are a good 5cm to wide, though I've been checking this sellers bellows and waiting for a response. If it helps, the dimensions are
.

That seller has various 4x5 bellows. Are they all the wrong size for your camera? :confused:

rivermandan
25-Jul-2007, 16:16
The seller just paid for a new bellows from this ebay chap. Kick ass. Now for a new question with a new thread. Thanks a million guys, as always you are so much help!

Brian Ellis
25-Jul-2007, 18:18
Clearly as you've only identified late on in your post that your bellows are synthetic, you have an even greater issue to take up with the seller then.

The synthetic bellows are not original, and if the seller has not identified that the camera was modified or altered, nor that there were pinholes, then errr...you have a problem.

Synthetic bellows are original on Tachiharas, assuming that by "synthetic" we mean a material other than leather.