Arca Swiss Rail Choices

[Sheldon N]

So I've finally gotten myself a Arca Swiss 4x5 Field (110-141). It arrives via UPS tomorrow - I can't wait! :)

I am exploring my options for what configuration I would like for the rail. The camera is coming with the standard 30cm folding rail and 8.5cm extension bracket clamp. However, to use my 300mm lens I'm going to need a longer rail. I understand that the 15cm extension rail segment is what most people use with their Arca Field. Right now I do have a 25cm extension rail segment that I picked up separately. However this is longer than I need since I don't plan on getting the long bellows or shooting anything longer than 300mm, and I'd prefer not to carry unnecessary weight/bulk.

So my two choices seem to be:

1) Exchange/trade/sell my 25cm extension rail for a 15cm extension rail to use with the 30cm folding rail.

2) Exchange/trade/sell my 30cm folding rail and 25cm extension rail in favor of the 30cm telescoping rail.

I know that option #2 would allow me to keep the standards on one short 15cm rail segment in the pack and keep the 30cm extension bracket and other 15cm rail segment on the tripod. I do still have a few questions though... :)

Are there any other advantages/disadvantages that I'm overlooking? Any stability differences? Does anyone know the weight difference between the two options? (I couldn't find it in the old camera weight thread)

Finally - is there anyone out there interested in exploring a possible trade? (depending on what's recommended) :)

Thanks!

[Atul Mohidekar]

Hi Sheldon,

I have and regularly use both 30cm folding rail and the 25cm extension rail (II) with my 6x9 Arca. Since 4x5 Field and 6x9 use the same components, except a different rear standard and different bellows, my observations should still be valid for a 4x5.

1. I'm not sure how much weight or volume savings you will get by switching from 25cm to 15cm extension rail. The effective length of the 30cm + 15cm assembly is about 40cm (400mm). Also, if you need to use a longer lens in future, such as a 450mm or 480mm, the 25cm extension rail would be required.

2. I would like to know what you would gain by switching from folding rail to a telescoping one. When I store the camera for transportation in a backpack, I always keep it mounted on the folded rail. I move both the camera standards to front section of the 30cm rail, fold the rail into half (15cm) and put the whole thing into the backpack. It takes less than 30 seconds (literally) to pull the camera out, unfold the rail, secure the two halves of the rail together with the end-screw and slide the rail into the bracket already attached to the tripod head, ready to compose/focus/shoot. If you see any advantage of using the telescoping rail over the folding rail, I would love to know.

Before I bought the extension rail, I too was concerned about the rigidity of the combined assembly of the three rail sections - two from the folding rail and one from the extension rail. But I'm very impressed by the Arca engineering! The whole assembly is rock solid.


// Atul

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

Congratulations, Sheldon
I have almost exactly the same configuration as yours and I have the 15cm extension rail.
The difference in weight & size between the 15cm and the 25 cm extension rail does not justify, IMHO, that you take any action before having actually used the equipement.
So my recommendation would be thet you start using the camera & accessories extensively, that you carefully build you lens kit and that you define your arrangement to carry the equipement as you like it.
Eventually when you'll find some limitations, you can start thinking about using another rail, but remember that the standard leather bellows, although extremely felxible, should not be reasonably extended beyond, say, an Apo Ronar of 300 mm of focal length or a tele of 400 mm of focal length (the tele has a much shorter bellows draw)
So the actual limitations of your equipment will come from the lens kit and the bellows, do not consider any rail kit with more than 35 cm of length without considering to purchase the long synthetic 110-141 bellows !

Another point : do resist temptation to manipulate the extension rail clamp when the extension rail is not mounted on the main rail, you are at risk of blocking it. So tightening the screw should be attempted only when the extension rail is perfectly attached to the main rail.
You'll see that there is a small gap on the geared rack at the junction between the main rail and the extension rail. This is intentional since it is very difficult to adjust manually both rails one against each other to a degree of precision compatible with the precision of the focusing gear. On the folding rail, the precision at the junction,near the hinge, is perfect by construction, so you can roll the focusing gear over the gap at the rail hinge without trouble ; however for the extension rail, the small gap is designed to ensure that the gear will safely escape/disengage before re-engaging on the extension rail.

have fun !

[evan clarke]

Hi Sheldon,
If you can trade for the telescoping rail, jump on it. You rack the camera on the rear short rail, remove it from the channel and stow the camera this way, the most compact configuration in a pack. When you mount the camera, you pop the channel with the front rail on your tripod, slide the camera in and you are ready to go. The telescoping rail is more rigid than the folding rail..Evan Clarke (5 Arcas)

[Capocheny]

Hi Sheldon, The telescoping rail is more rigid than the folding rail..Evan Clarke (5 Arcas)

Hi Evan,

Makes good sense with respects to the overall rigidity!

Cheers

[Capocheny]

Hi Sheldon, The telescoping rail is more rigid than the folding rail..Evan Clarke (5 Arcas)

Hi Evan,

Makes good sense!

Cheers

[eric black]

Congrats on the Arca system- I configure mine a bit differently and use one of two folding rails- I usually keep the camera mounted on the 30 cm folding rail with a leather pleated bellows which can handle my wide angle lenses 58mm-my mid range lenses 210mm. IF I know that I am going after telephoto shots where I change out the bellows to a 70 cm bellows and the rail to a 50 cm folding type. I also use a mid range formulation with the standard 38 cm bellows and carry both rails into the field. Personally, I would keep the rail that you have and continue to build on the system by adding components as you find them available on auction sites or as cast offs by others- that is the beauty of the Arca!

[Sheldon N]

I can't imagine that anything could be more rigid than the folding rail - I tried mine out and this thing is rock solid! I could maybe see how the folding rail plus extension might be less solid than the telescoping rail, but there don't seem to be any rigidity problems with mine.

Does anyone have the weight or ability to weigh their 15cm Extension rail? I found the rest of the weights posted for the telecsoping and folding rails, but not for the 15cm extension rail. I'm curious what the total weight difference of the 30cm folding rail + 15cm rail vs. the telescoping rail would be.

I think the reason I'm leaning towards the telescoping rail instead of the folding rail is because of the speed of setup (no unfolding the rail and tightening the knob while holding the camera), more compact fit in my backpack (I'm not as concerned about the size of the bracket on the tripod since I carry that by hand), and that I could use one single rail for all my lenses (90mm - 300mm). I'm not sure if I'd like to have to get out a second rail and attach it when I decide to focus closer or use my 300mm. Plus the way that my backpack compartments are set up would make it simpler to pack.

Could someone post the weight of their 15cm extension rail?

Thanks!

[Jack Flesher]

FWIW, the split rail is UBER rigid. Even out to 600mm with the optional 300mm inner rail and one of the 150's. The folding rail is rigid enough by itself, but when you stick any of the insert-in-the-hole type extension rails into that, it gets a bit wobbly out beyond 450... Not bad at all, just not as rock-solid rigid as the split rail.

[evan clarke]

I was even unhappy with the rigidity of the folding rail on my 6x9, the split rail is a rock. I have an Arca Cube with a Bogen universal plate attached to it for removal from my tripod which is now a Gitzo 3540XLS. This whole setup with my 4x5 and the split rail is so rigid, speedy and useful that it defies description...Evan Clarke

[Atul Mohidekar]

I checked the Arca Swiss catalog. The weights of the extension rails are not specified in it.

This is good info for Arca users, so I have a couple of questions about the usage of the rail (the subject of this thread :-)

How do you carry the camera in a backpack with the telescopic rails? Is it possible to leave the camera on the telescopic rails while it is packed in the backpack? If you have any photos of the camera in a backpack, I would love to see them.

Telescopic brackets and the sliding monorails come in different lengths. What are the commonly used lengths of these brackets and the monorails?

Thanks.


// Atul

[Sheldon N]

My Arca field 110-141 arrived in the mail today. What a camera! :) The folding rail is really quite good, very rigid and not too complicated to use. It does take me a little bit of time to unfold the rail and tighten the screw clamp, but it's not bad.

I also stopped by the post office and weighed my 25cm extension rail. It came in at 10.8 oz, or 306 grams. Going by the info posted in prior threads, the 30cm rail plus 8.5 cm extension bracket weigh in at 437 grams. Combined this would give my current rail setup a total weight of 743 grams. I would guess that the 15cm extension rail weighs maybe 215 grams, so a swap from 25cm to 15cm would give me a total rail weight of 652 grams.

Prior posts have indicated that the 30cm telescoping rail setup weighs in at 630 grams. I think this means that the telescoping rail may actually be the lightest option when compared to a folding rail plus an extension. Given that I need to use a 300mm lens with the setup, I think I am leaning towards trading out my folding rail for a telescoping rail setup.

Isn't that the beauty of the Arca Swiss system? You can completely customize your choices for each and every accessory.

Atul - If I can get myself a telescoping rail, I'll post photos for you to show how it works. You could also look at the For Sale post that Jack has for his F-Metric (which he's since decided to keep). It shows how he uses the telescoping rail. The 15cm segment will slide right out of the bracket and can hold both standards to put in the backpack. The extension bracket itself and the second 15cm rail segment stay on the tripod.

Thanks all!

[evan clarke]

I checked the Arca Swiss catalog. The weights of the extension rails are not specified in it.

This is good info for Arca users, so I have a couple of questions about the usage of the rail (the subject of this thread :-)

How do you carry the camera in a backpack with the telescopic rails? Is it possible to leave the camera on the telescopic rails while it is packed in the backpack? If you have any photos of the camera in a backpack, I would love to see them.

Telescopic brackets and the sliding monorails come in different lengths. What are the commonly used lengths of these brackets and the monorails?

Thanks.

// Atul

Here's a picture of how my cameras are configured to go in my pack. The cameras are racked on one short rail and the rest of the telescoping channel and rail goes into a pocket. It's a Tamrac pack...Evan Clarke
4835

[JPlomley]

Evan- could you be so kind as to post a few picks of the camera in the pack. I have the F-Field camera with the newest bellows that actually protrude beyond the dimensions of the rear standard (when the standards are compressed and the rail folded) so that when the camera is laid on it's side pressure is being put on the bellows. This concerns me from a wear and tear point of view on the bellows.

[Atul Mohidekar]

Thank you very much, Sheldon and Evan.

I should have figured this out myself as I do very similar thing (moving the camera on to half of the rail) when I pack my camera with the folding rail :)

Evan, are you using the 15cm rail in the photo? What would be the maximum usable focal length for the 30cm bracket + two 15cm monorails?

What lengths of the bracket and monorails would one need to accommodate lenses from 55mm to 450mm (if is even possible)?

Thanks again for the all the information.


// Atul

[Jack Flesher]

Sheldon and Atul:

You can focus a 450 to infinity with the standard split rail and do not need any extension rails. The two 150 inner rails extend in the base rail another 200mm or so, while still being able to be locked down. (I do not show them fully separated in the photo and they have another 150mm or so of available extension.) This allows me to focus my 450 to about 20 feet. On my F-Metric -- I'll insert the photo here for convenience -- I can focus a 450 on a flat board with the standard bellows shown, AND can focus a 47mm XL on a flat board at infinity with the standard bellows. Granted, I have little movement available for the 47 with the std bellows compressed -- except a bit of tilt -- and with the 450, movements are also limited to a moderate amount of rise and tilt, but in use, it has been adequate. The fact is that extreme of focal, form 47 to 450 on flat boards, are useable on the stock camera with the stock split base rail.

All that said, I do have an optional 300mm inner rail. Wth this and a longer bellows, I can easily focus a 600mm lens at infinity.

Here is the photo:
http://jack.cameraphile.org/albums/album08/Arca_F_Metric.jpg

Cheers,

[evan clarke]

I will take a picture of my pack tonight, but beware, my digital is a really basic P&S, won't be nice like Jack's. The standards on my 141mm 4x5 compress the bellows quite tightly, the camera lays on it's side in the pack and in 1 1/2 years I can't see any wear because of this. I carry an extra 25 cm rail section in a little bag with the 720mm rear element for my Nikon tele and I can draw this lens with my 141mm camera. With the 15cm rails, I can draw my 500 tele just fine. I have a Fuji 450 but it is packed with my 8x10 and I have never had it on the 4x5..Evan Clarke

[evan clarke]

I will take a picture of my pack tonight, but beware, my digital is a really basic P&S, won't be nice like Jack's. The standards on my 141mm 4x5 compress the bellows quite tightly, the camera lays on it's side in the pack and in 1 1/2 years I can't see any wear because of this. I carry an extra 25 cm rail section in a little bag with the 720mm rear element for my Nikon tele and I can draw this lens with my 141mm camera. With the 15cm rails, I can draw my 500 tele just fine. I have a Fuji 450 but it is packed with my 8x10 and I have never had it on the 4x5..Evan Clarke

Here are the pictures:

1. The pack
2.The rail stored in the outside pack
3. The camera and lenses stored in the pack

Evan Clarke
4848

4849

4850

[Atul Mohidekar]

Jack and Evan,

Thanks a lot for taking time to take and post the illustrative pictures and for answering a bunch of questions.


// Atul

[JPlomley]

Thanks for the pics Evan. Much appreciated. I'll try this approach in my Lowe.

[Sheldon N]

So, thanks to the courtesy of another fellow Arca Swiss user here on the LF Forum, I was able to trade my 30cm folding rail straight across for the 30cm telescoping rail. Now I can use my Arca 4x5 Field (110-141) with my 300mm Nikkor-M lens, focused reasonably close. I measured the bellows and at the limit mine can just get 400mm of extension. I could possibly stretch them another 10mm, but that would be pushing it. A 360mm lens would work no problem, but movements might be a little limited.

The ease of use is really quite nice, since you can roughly position the extension by sliding either of the 15cm brackets then locking down and fine tuning the focus. It also packs up into a compact package. I just put on a ground glass protector, wrap the camera in the focusing cloth, and store it in the middle of my backpack (non-photo Osprey Atmos 35, panel loader).

Here's a couple snaps of the camera on the new rail with the Nikkor 300mm. Thanks to everyone for their help!

:)

[Capocheny]

Sheldon,

Sweet.... very sweet!

Glad everything came together for you. :)

Cheers

[ljb0904]

Hmm, I may have to look into the telescoping rail. I've got the collapsable, but it's a PIA to use my 240mm as infinity is almost right at the limits of the 300mm rail.

Sheldon, what's your camera weight? Mine including the 15cm extension is a little above 6 lbs, maybe 6.2 lbs, but I've got the dynamic orbix front standard. I might be willing to trade for a non-orbix front standard unless someone wants to tell me why I need the extra weight? I really don't use it as I focus with back tilt almost always.

[evan clarke]

So, thanks to the courtesy of another fellow Arca Swiss user here on the LF Forum, I was able to trade my 30cm folding rail straight across for the 30cm telescoping rail. Now I can use my Arca 4x5 Field (110-141) with my 300mm Nikkor-M lens, focused reasonably close. I measured the bellows and at the limit mine can just get 400mm of extension. I could possibly stretch them another 10mm, but that would be pushing it. A 360mm lens would work no problem, but movements might be a little limited.

The ease of use is really quite nice, since you can roughly position the extension by sliding either of the 15cm brackets then locking down and fine tuning the focus. It also packs up into a compact package. I just put on a ground glass protector, wrap the camera in the focusing cloth, and store it in the middle of my backpack (non-photo Osprey Atmos 35, panel loader).

Here's a couple snaps of the camera on the new rail with the Nikkor 300mm. Thanks to everyone for their help!

:)

Now you've got it!! This is so much better than the folding rail..Evan Clarke:p

[Sheldon N]

The weight difference between the 30cm folding rail and the 30cm telescoping rail is ~190g, which is probably really close to the weight of your 15cm rail segment.

I think that the telescoping rail is easier to use and more rigid than the 30cm folding rail + 15cm extension rail. If you found someone to trade the folding rail for the telescoping rail, you could even sell the 15cm rail extension and possibly come out ahead.

[Mattg]

Good to see it's worked out for you Sheldon.

I notice in the pictures that the new 141 field seems to rob the front standard of less rise than the old field. It looks like only 2cm now, is this right?

[JPlomley]

Matt, correct. Only 2 cm of rise on the front standard from neutral. Could not really figure out why all neutral positions are indicated on the new Field's except for vertical shift on the front standard.

Sheldon, now you have me worried. I'm picking up a Rodenstock 300mm APO Sironar-S this weekend which is notably heavier than your Nikkor. I'm using the 30 cm collapsible rail with 15 cm extension rail. I was thinking I may need to use an auxillary brace for the rear standard with the lens postioned over the centre of the tripod. Do you think the telescoping rail set-up would be adequate for the Sironar-S (2.2 lbs), or would I still need to consider the Manfrotto brace?

[JPlomley]

Laurent, I added the front Orbix to my Arca Field as well and am glad I did. When using wide angles combined with a rear base tilt, foreground objects can take on some pretty funky looking geometry. Imagine those foreground rocks at Otter Cliffs in Acadia NP. They are round, not oval. It's those sorts of images where I justify the expense and bit of added weight of the Orbix.

[Sheldon N]

Matt, correct. Only 2 cm of rise on the front standard from neutral. Could not really figure out why all neutral positions are indicated on the new Field's except for vertical shift on the front standard.

Sheldon, now you have me worried. I'm picking up a Rodenstock 300mm APO Sironar-S this weekend which is notably heavier than your Nikkor. I'm using the 30 cm collapsible rail with 15 cm extension rail. I was thinking I may need to use an auxillary brace for the rear standard with the lens postioned over the centre of the tripod. Do you think the telescoping rail set-up would be adequate for the Sironar-S (2.2 lbs), or would I still need to consider the Manfrotto brace?

I would think that the 30cm telescoping rail would be more than adequate for the 300mm Sironar-S setup with no brace needed. If your tripod and head are sturdy, the rail certainly won't be the weakest link since it's designed to use for up to 8x10 shooting and Kerry's even got his set up to shoot a 7x17 back!

I might consider a brace if you were shooting really long lenses (600mm+), but I think you could even do a 450mm without a brace.

[ljb0904]

Thanks JP. I bought mine on a whim I guess, but I'm happy I did, even though I can't really afford or justify it :-)

I use my 400T with no problem, but I have started using my plamp to grip between the tripod leg and the rail. It's not the best solution, but I do have a bit of play between my ball head and tripod base, so it's enough to prevent that. There doesn't seem to be any issue from the camera itself on the collapsable rail. I don't the 400T weighs as much though.

Now I just need to find a telescoping rail...

Sheldon, do you have a weight on your new camera?

[Sheldon N]

The camera weighs 5.75lbs with the folding rail, and the upgrade to the telescoping rail adds roughly 6.7oz, so the total camera weight is now about 6.17lbs.

I sent you a PM about your Orbix, in case you were thinking about lightening your camera... :)

[JPlomley]

O.K. So I've got the 300mm APO Sironar-S mounted on the Arca with the extension rail. What a chunk of glass...I missed my guesstimate of the weight. It is more like 2.7 lbs. I compared focus before and after inserting a film holder (with a 6x Silvestri loupe) and there was no displacement, so even with the rear standard on the extension rail (15 cm) there seems to be ample fore/aft support. Instead of placing the lens over the ball head, I positioned the single extension bracket at the median point of the rail. Until I get auxillary support, this will have to suffice. Not sure which would provide the best support....the Manfrotto brace (at $55) coupled to an additional extension bracket ($125) or an entire new optical bench as Sheldon has illustrated ($485 quote from Rod Klukas at Photomark, not available until September at the earliest). I'm getting some chromes back today of my current "balanced" set-up, so we'll see just how vibration prone that is.

[evan clarke]

It might be better to pick up a nice Nikkor 300m. A great lens in a tiny package...Evan Clarke

[JPlomley]

Evan, I just bought the APO Sironar-S, why would I want to get a Nikkor at this point? My wife would kill me if I threw this suggestion on the table. I can hear it now "why do you need two 300mm's, you spend all that time at the gym, is 3 lbs really that heavy":D

[Sheldon N]

Why not throw up a "For Trade" offer here and see if there's any takers? I'd bet that you might find someone who was interested in swapping a folding rail for a telescoping rail. You could even throw in $50 or $100 and it would still be cheaper than buying a new one.

Also, I think Jack Flesher has an extra telescoping rail laying around that he's thinking about selling. Send him a PM and see what he's got!

[JPlomley]

Cheers Sheldon. PM sent.

[evan clarke]

Sorry, I didn't know you just got it. I have one of these too and it is a heavy lens. I bought it for my 8x10 and later got the Nikkor for my 4x5. I was elated when I found it covers 8x10 so well and it has become my standard 300mm lens. I understand the wife thing:rolleyes: ..Evan

[Mattg]

I traded my 30cm extension set for Sheldon's collapsible rail set. I'm very happy with the rigidity of the collapsible rail and it makes far more sense for me with a 6x9cm camera. I really can't see how this one is any less rigid than a plain 30cm rail.
Thanks Sheldon.

[Sheldon N]

I agree with Matt completely. There is no practical rigidity difference between the 30cm folding rail and the 30 cm telescoping rail - when used at the 30cm length. It's only when you add on extension rails to the folding rail that the design of the 30cm telescoping rail becomes superior.

This worked out great for both of us! Matt gets a smaller lighter rail to use with his 6x9 (up to a 135mm lens) and I get a perfect rail for my 300mm lens.

Isn't this forum the greatest? :)