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doncody
19-Jul-2007, 11:06
Pardon my ignorance - it's possible this thread is in the wrong place. I am a newbie to this forum and LF, coming from MF.:eek:

I shoot dance currently with a 503c digitally and use broncolor packs and strobes to freeze action (jumps, scarves, hair, etc.). This requires very fast duration on the part of the strobes, and the combination with the Blad is great. My question is can I achieve the same effect with LF? Will the shutters sync appropriately? Does the type of shutter matter-eg., Copal, Schneider electronic, etc?

I always shoot on a tripod and wind the Blad manually. Can I reset a LF camera as quickly, or close to it?

Thx,
Don

Peter De Smidt
19-Jul-2007, 11:24
Don, the difference is that to get the same image on the 4x5 as on the Hasselblad, you'll need to use a longer lens, and so you'll probably want to stop down more, which means more light. Depending on your strobes, this may mean that the flash duration will be longer, but were talking going from, say, 1/10,000 of a second to 1/2,000 of a second. This all depends on your strobe. The leaf shutters in view camera lenses- Copal, Prontor, Ilex...- sync at any speed. I believe that the same is true for the Sinar shutter.

Can you reset the LF camera as quickly? Well, you can use a self-cocking shutter, such as a Copal Press shutter, but the big slow down would be loading film holders. If you must shoot very fast, you probably need an assistant to put the film holders into the camera, lift the dark slide, put the dark slide back, pull holder out of camera, repeat. Practice with some empty film holders should speed things up, but you'll never be as fast shooting repeating shots as the Hasselblad.

David A. Goldfarb
19-Jul-2007, 11:31
You can use the strobes in the same way. In general, the shutter shouldn't matter, as long as it's a leaf shutter, Packard shutter, or Sinar shutter and a few others (i.e., not the focal plane shutter on a Speed Graphic or Graflex reflex camera).

Sheet film is going to be slower than rollfilm, though you can get pretty quick. After you've focused you have to close the aperture, cock the shutter, insert the filmholder, remove the darkslide, fire the shutter, and replace the darkslide. You can speed things up with a self cocking shutter and Grafmatic filmholders that hold 6-sheets instead of two. You could also use Readyloads or Quickloads, which are more expensive.

So if you are shooting a set move, where you've prefocused and have enough light to get plenty of DOF to account for variations from shot to shot (I'm thinking Lois Greenfield style here), with Grafmatics and a self-cocking shutter, you could manage almost as fast with a 4x5" camera as you would with the Hassy for six shots at a time.

If you're trying to capture moments in a longer dance piece as it unfolds, rather than setting it up and shooting several takes of the same move, then I'd say stick to the Hassy (or maybe try something like a Gowlandflex, which is a LF TLR--info at www.petergowland.com, click on "their cameras").

Gordon Moat
19-Jul-2007, 11:34
Syncing should not be a problem, since most large format lenses now use a leaf shutter, allowing syncing at any speed. You might want to look into some of the press shutters, since those will not need to be manually cocked after each shot.

As Peter mentioned above, going from one shot to the next will be slower. You could probably get about one shot every couple seconds using a Quickload/Readyload set-up, though you would need an assistant skilled in changing packets. I know a few advertising shooters who work this way, and with practice it can be fast and efficient.

Unless you are using a Linhof with rangefinder focus, you will probably be pre-focused at a certain distance. If your talent stay within that plane of focus distance, then you should be able to capture the shots as you planned them. I did some fashion and lifgestyle shooting earlier this year that involved having the talent only move parallel to the camera; I stood beside the camera, and used visual clues in the scene to know the edges of the area captured on film. The advantage to me was greater interaction with the talent.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio (http://www.allgstudio.com)

Edwin Lachica
19-Jul-2007, 11:39
Gilles Larrain (http://www.gilleslarrain.com/html/themes/dance/index.html) did a series with the American Ballet Theater using a Sinar 4x5 with the Expolux system.

doncody
19-Jul-2007, 11:42
Peter and David,

Thanks so much. You both hit it right on the head. I realized after I posted I should have mentioned that my intent was to stay with digital rather than try and do film, but it's good to know that it's possible.

Yes, David they are set moves ala "Greenfield" (she's the best).

I have been renting the Blad and am about to pull the trigger on a purchase and thought that maybe I should just make the leap to LF to take advantage of the movements for Still Life and Architecture as well.

I've been looking at the Alpa, and Silvestri. Any comments/advice?

Thx,
Don

Michael T. Murphy
20-Jul-2007, 15:54
Don,

Let us know how it goes.

I am all Broncolor in the studio. I had Topas A2, Mobil, etc. Then I picked up some Pulso A4, and now I want to do some dance photography, but only because I can. :) :p

The most important question on the camera is probably which ones have adapters for your digital back.

I have been using a Cambo Wide with film, I know a lot of architecture photogs like the Cambo Wide DS. But no tilt on those, just shift. There are some good threads on the Luminous-Landscape Medium Format forum on using the Alpa and others with digital.

I use a $100 laser measuring device to set distance on my camera. If you are shooting in darkish studios it can be hard to see the groundglass, and a pain to take the back off and put it back on. That and a viewfinder make for quick-ish work.

For still life your options are pretty wide open. You might want to buy a $200 monorail for that after you get the other rig set up. Biggest issue will be sharing lens boards between the two.

Best,
Michael

al olson
21-Jul-2007, 06:59
Don't forget to set your synch switch to "X". Your shutter will probably fire too late if it is set to "M".

doncody
6-Aug-2007, 14:01
You can use the strobes in the same way. In general, the shutter shouldn't matter, as long as it's a leaf shutter, Packard shutter, or Sinar shutter and a few others (i.e., not the focal plane shutter on a Speed Graphic or Graflex reflex camera).

Sheet film is going to be slower than rollfilm, though you can get pretty quick. After you've focused you have to close the aperture, cock the shutter, insert the filmholder, remove the darkslide, fire the shutter, and replace the darkslide. You can speed things up with a self cocking shutter and Grafmatic filmholders that hold 6-sheets instead of two. You could also use Readyloads or Quickloads, which are more expensive.

So if you are shooting a set move, where you've prefocused and have enough light to get plenty of DOF to account for variations from shot to shot (I'm thinking Lois Greenfield style here), with Grafmatics and a self-cocking shutter, you could manage almost as fast with a 4x5" camera as you would with the Hassy for six shots at a time.

If you're trying to capture moments in a longer dance piece as it unfolds, rather than setting it up and shooting several takes of the same move, then I'd say stick to the Hassy (or maybe try something like a Gowlandflex, which is a LF TLR--info at www.petergowland.com, click on "their cameras").
David et al,

You've convinced me I need a leaf shutter, but I will further display my ignorance here - exactly what is the potential problem with a focal plane shutter?

Best,
Don

Jim Jones
6-Aug-2007, 15:04
David et al,

You've convinced me I need a leaf shutter, but I will further display my ignorance here - exactly what is the potential problem with a focal plane shutter?

Best,
Don

The focal plane shutter on my Speed Graphic will X sync only in bulb exposures. This means the shutter will be open a substantual fraction of a second. If the ambient light is high enough, this will cause ghost images. Some medium format and smaller cameras have much higher X sync shutter speeds, and thus minimize this problem.

David A. Goldfarb
6-Aug-2007, 15:06
Focal plane shutters for LF cameras (which are fairly unusual these days--except for old Graflex and Graphic cameras) often don't have X-sync for strobes, or they can be awkward to use on the "drop shutter" setting (similar to "T") for use with strobes. When Speed Graphics and similar cameras were more common, there were "FP" sync flashbulbs that would burn during the entire time that the shutter slit traveled across the focal plane. X-sync for strobes requires that the shutter be fully open, which is easy with a leaf shutter.

M Salhuana
6-Aug-2007, 15:31
Don,

With the type of photography you are doing the shutter speed you select does not really matter. The reason for this is that the flash duration is much faster than any sync speed on any type of shutter (leaf or focal plane) which is usally somewhere in between 1/2000 to 1/10,000 of a second. I have done dance pictures with shutter speeds of 1/8 of a second and the flash duration acts as my shutter speed. The only caviat to this is that you must have a pretty darkened studio or location so that the ambient light is so low that it does contribute to the overall exposure. I have done this handlheld with a digital camera. Go ahead and experiment with it.

Since you will be using a 4x5 with a verry small aperture, probably f/22, the ambient light that the modeling lights give off will not play at all into your final exposure even if you use a 1/2 sec exposure.

Where the leaf shutter comes into play is when you want to balance your ambient light with flash, such as when you are using the flash for fill, then the leaf shutter will allow you to have more flexibility since its syncs with the flash at all shutter speeds.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Miguel

doncody
6-Aug-2007, 16:10
I was thinking 4x5 or Alpa, but if for example I used a Mamiya AFD II which has a focal plane shutter am I courting trouble?

Best,
Don

Ernest Purdum
6-Aug-2007, 16:24
I am confused, and hope I will not be adding to the confusion.

David, I'm not sure whether you have a question or are just opening up the subject for general discussion.

Miguel, David is talking about larger and older cameras with big curtain shutters that move rather slowly, very slowly as compared to today's small-format cameras. Because of that, If you select a normal shutter speed, all you get is the image that peeks through a slit in the shutter curtain. To take a picture of a static object, or if there is almost complete darkness until the flash goes off, can work well, but having the curtain open completely, the flash go off and the curtain close is too slow for many subjects and light conditions.

Don, I'm not familiar with that camera, but most modern focal-plane shutter cameras can use electronic flash up to 1/60th second or better.

Michael T. Murphy
6-Aug-2007, 17:15
if for example I used a Mamiya AFD II which has a focal plane shutter am I courting trouble?

No. I have a Mamiya AF. The manual lists the flash sync as 1/125 or slower (1/60, etc.) As long as there is not too much ambient (available) light, you will be fine.

A leaf shutter is even better, but not really needed here. With a leaf shutter you can do flash sync as fast as 1/500 or 1/1000, faster than the focal plane shutter.

That is really only useful, though, when working with flash outside in bright sunlight, to limit the effect of the sun. Somewhat the opposite of what you will usually have in a dance studio.

In any event, with most cameras and the studio being "not too bright", your effective exposure will be the length of the flash. :)

Also, FWIW, I have a few Broncolor bi-tube heads if you need one. Either with or without a tube.

Best,
Michael

David A. Goldfarb
6-Aug-2007, 17:40
You can use strobes with focal plane shutters on most medium format and small format SLRs. The problem with focal plane shutters and strobes is specific to large format cameras, and unless you're planning to use a Speed Graphic, Graflex SLR, or one of the few other cameras that has a focal plane shutter, it's not an issue. An Alpa uses leaf shutter lenses, and so do most 4x5" cameras other than the Speed Graphic and Graflex SLRs.

Here's the problem--With a medium format or 35mm camera, if you exceed the maximum sync speed (say you set the shutter on 1/1000 sec), the shutter won't be fully open when the strobe fires, so part of the image will be exposed properly, and there will be a black band in the part of the image that was covered while the shutter was partially open. This is because the shutter really isn't traveling at that speed--it can only travel at the maximum X-sync speed. Instead, the shutter uses two curtains, so that the second curtain begins to close before the first curtain reaches its destination, and the shutter is never fully open. Instead there is a slit traveling across the film gate, producing a very short exposure time.

With a large format focal plane shutter, the shutter is never fully open (there is always a slit traveling across the film gate) except on the B or T setting, so you could use strobes, but it's somewhat impractical, because you have to close the shutter manually, or the ambient light could be enough to record an image on film.

Brian K
6-Aug-2007, 18:58
Shutter speed does not matter when using high speed strobes to freeze motion. The only affect that shutter speed would have would be to be so slow that ambient light creates a ghost affect, or if the shutter speed is so fast as to cut into the flash duration. As it is mostly likely that the flash is firing at a far higher speed than the shutter the latter is not a factor.

If you were successfully shooting these scenes and freezing motion sufficiently with the Hasselblad and strobe arrangement, then a LF camera should work just as well except for the need to maybe stop down one stop for the increased DOF that larger for format and their inherently longer focal lengths require. Be aware though that increased strobe power output usually comes at the cost of strobe speed, that is the flash duration on higher power is longer, and therefore has less motion freezing power. You should look up the flash duration/output power charts if your strobe manufacturer has them to indicate what the flash duration is at a given power out put.

neil poulsen
10-Aug-2007, 05:22
Just a couple of questions. What's the sensor size of your digital back? What lenses do you currently use most of the time on your Hasselblad, or what focal lengths in lenses would you like to use? How do you render the images: as large prints, fmedium sized prints, for the web, etc.?

doncody
11-Aug-2007, 07:15
Just a couple of questions. What's the sensor size of your digital back? What lenses do you currently use most of the time on your Hasselblad, or what focal lengths in lenses would you like to use? How do you render the images: as large prints, fmedium sized prints, for the web, etc.?

22mp 48x36
Hassy V lenses primarily 100mm, but also 120 makro, and 180
Large Prints 16x20, occasionally 20x30, and web

Thanks,
Don