Lens to cover 20x24

[tylercooney]

I am trying to build a 20x24inch camera just for a fun project. I have found Wisner's website fairly informative about which lenses will cover 20x24 inches but can't seem to locate any of those lenses. Any ideas? or any other information about building a camera this big? Thanks.

[C. D. Keth]

There's a frighteningly large lens (http://cgi.ebay.it/Rodenstock-Apo-Ronar-16-1800mm-Extreme-Telelens-Huge_W0QQitemZ270143657681QQihZ017QQcategoryZ30076QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting) on feebay right now that will cover 60x80 inch film. That should give you some movements ;)

[Steve Hamley]

Try looking for a 19" Dagor, they come up fairly often but of course are not cheap. Also the 19" f"11 wide angle process version, very rare.

Steve

[Rob Vinnedge]

I'm sure you are aware of the Schneider XXL lenses with the 900mm image circles, which you can purchase new for a large sum of money, but there are still many more old and new process lenses available on ebay and other online sources. There are also many experts out there, such as Kerry Thalmann, Jim Galli, Ole Tjugen, Arne Croell, etc. who check in here regularly with lens info. Check the archives here and on APUG for 20X24 topics (and of course the classifieds in both). www.mamutphoto.com has a lot of ULF info, as well.

[Steve Goldstein]

There's a 600mm f/11 Fujinon-C on eBay right now. No relation, interest, yada^3.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Fujinon-600-Fll-5-lens-Mint-with-original-box_W0QQitemZ250140628707QQihZ015QQcategoryZ15248QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[Sheldon N]

Quick! Buy the 30" Artar that WFWhitaker is selling for $350 on the FS area here! :)

[Rob Vinnedge]

The 600mm Fujinon doesn't cover 20X24 at infinity and the 30" Artar is "iffy" according to the seller, but perhaps the 35" or 42" would work.

[Michael Jones]

The 600mm Fujinon doesn't cover 20X24 at infinity and the 30" Artar is "iffy" according to the seller, but perhaps the 35" or 42" would work.

You need about 790mm of image circle for a 20x24. The published specs for Artars are conservative. The Goerz catalog states the 30" Artar will cover a 16x20 plate with a prism and approximately 15% more without the prism. Coupling this with stopping the lens down to f45 or less should cover 20x24. You may want to contact Tracy Storer to learn his experience with the 20x24 Polaroid. The Mamut web site will give you a wealth of information. Good luck (and William has a fair price for that long Artar).

Mike

[Michael Jones]

I have found Wisner's website fairly informative about which lenses will cover 20x24 inches but can't seem to locate any of those lenses. Any ideas?

I just found Ron's chart for 20x24 and it lists the 30" Artar as usable. I'd seriously consider William's lens. For an experiment, the price is right and you'll not lose value if you decide to sell it later.

Mike

[Jim Galli]

I have a 17X20 Gundlach Symmetrical. It's 26" combined and I believe a triple convertible. So that would be something like 26" 45" and 60" or some other crazy numbers. All the old lenses would cover a plate larger than the advertised when stopped down so I would bet this one will cover 2024 easily. I offered it a couple of months ago for $650. Our friends in Asia are snapping up all of these antique US BIG lenses about as fast as they hit ebay.

[Mark Sawyer]

Some 8x10 convertable lenses might cover in their longer configurations.

On process lenses, be aware that a lot of the manufacturer's coverages are given for 1:1 reproduction, not coverage at infinity. That makes a HUGE difference.

[sanking]

The 600mm Fujinon-C will definitely cover 20X24 but you will need to stop down a lot for performance to be acceptable on the corners. Price runs $1200 - $1400 in Copal 3.

Even the 450mm Nikkor-M will cover, but again you must stop down to at least f/45 for adequate performance on the corners.

The 30" Artar will cover and more, but again for good performance on the corners you will need to stop down a lot. Most process over 30" will also cover 20X24". These lenses will be your best buys, in the $300-$800 range in barrel

19" Dagor would cover with movements, but will likely be very expensive, $2000 plus.

The best semi-wide lens for the format is the 550 XXL Schneider, a modern Dagor type lens. Price slightly over $4000 but will cover will lots of movements.

Sandy King

[Asher Kelman]

The 600mm Fujinon-C will definitely cover 20X24 but you will need to stop down a lot for performance to be acceptable on the corners. Price runs $1200 - $1400 in Copal 3.

Even the 450mm Nikkor-M will cover, but again you must stop down to at least f/45 for adequate performance on the corners.

The 30" Artar will cover and more, but again for good performance on the corners you will need to stop down a lot. Most process over 30" will also cover 20X24". These lenses will be your best buys, in the $300-$800 range in barrel

19" Dagor would cover with movements, but will likely be very expensive, $2000 plus.

The best semi-wide lens for the format is the 550 XXL Schneider, a modern Dagor type lens. Price slightly over $4000 but will cover will lots of movements.

Sandy King

Sandy or anyone else who knows!

What about the Rodenstock 35" Compact CL Ronar for 20x24 and what would that be equivalent to in 8x10 or 35mm formats? I'm thinking of taking portraits of primates in the zoo!

How avaialble and desirable is it and what would be a good price?

Thanks,

Asher

[Dan Fromm]

Wot? Does your local zoo exhibit archbishops?

I suppose you could persuade an archbishop to hold still long enough for you to set up. Perhaps also some, not all, of the great apes. But monkeys?

[Asher Kelman]

Wot? Does your local zoo exhibit archbishops?

I suppose you could persuade an archbishop to hold still long enough for you to set up. Perhaps also some, not all, of the great apes. But monkeys?

Dan,

Primates, prelates both pose,

At least in the zoo, most of the time,

Ya have no fear when ya bend down,

No partition to their face

Just an ape with a noble face!

At the LA Zoo

They'll always pose for you!

The really love the long black lens

Of the homo sapiens!

Asher

[Tri Tran]

If I have 1 lens 1 camera on field . That would be 19 inches Dagor.

[Edwin Beckenbach]

Sandy or anyone else who knows!

What about the Rodenstock 35" Compact CL Ronar for 20x24 and what would that be equivalent to in 8x10 or 35mm formats? I'm thinking of taking portraits of primates in the zoo!

How avaialble and desirable is it and what would be a good price?

Thanks,

Asher

I picked one up a new one a year or so ago for around $600.00. I can only speculate about 20x24 because I use it for 4x5 and 8x10 but by the specs it covers approximately 26 inches at f22. Stated image circles for Ronars are conservative (the corners maintain extreme sharpness) but quality also falls off rather quickly beyond the stated coverage. For 20x24 It's equivalent to approximately 360mm on 8x10; consider it a slightly long "normal" focal length.

[Joerg Krusche]

Asher,

ever considered a Apo Germinar 9/750 or a 12/1000 ?, ... your camera should not be too flimsy, but I am using these lenses on Sinar's with behind the lens shutter so far up to 8x10 to profit from the tele effect , but image circle is good enough for larger formats, Kerry might be able to help you .. just send him a Pm . There is also a rather rare Apo Germinar 14,5/750 that comes in a Copal 3. These lenses with their all-air spaced 6-element design offer performance that goes beyond what one may actually ever need .. they might though be a worthwhile alternative. There are the recent Apo-Tele-Xenars 600/800 .. with image circle beyond 8x10 but not for the very large formats .. the long Apo Germinar's performance at infinty is not much behind the Apo Tele-xenar performance .. I think this is remarkable.

Best

Joerg

[Asher Kelman]

Thanks Tri, Edwin and Joerg.

I'm trying to think ahead (for a new ULF camera) and still use the ambitious focal length right now on my 8x10 camera.

Now I have to translate you advice on lenses to availability and price.

Asher

[LH1H17]

what about the fujinon CM-W 450mm?
it's the biggest plasmat that anybody makes today, yet oddly lighter than my 360mm W Nikkor. now if only I had a 20x24 camera to do some testing... :rolleyes:

[Mark Sawyer]

Even the 450mm Nikkor-M will cover, but again you must stop down to at least f/45 for adequate performance on the corners.


Sandy would know much better than I, but I'm surprised the 450mm Nikkor-M covers 20x24. My impression is that this is a tessar design, and tessars are generally thought of as having narrower coverage. Am I wrong about the lens being a tessar?

[Monty McCutchen]

I shoot 20 x 24 on a regular basis. My lens set is as follows and seems to be a pretty decent mix of focal lengths;

f12/ 1000 Apo Germinar
f8-22 30 inch Rapid Rectilinear Dallmeyer (used mainly for my wet plate work)
f11 550 XXL Fine Art Lens from Schneider

I would love to have the 1100 Schneider Fine Art Lens but have spent enough money on the above already. I would sell a kidney for a Dallmeyer 8D so if you have one and want to sell it..... or you need a kidney let me know. I'll pony up.

Sandy a question;

Will a 405 Kodak Portrait lens cover 20 x 24 at portrait distances. I've heard reports of it covering 12 x 20 which gives me hope with my 20 x 24 racked out to one to one proportions. Of course trying it out would be best and I will but I have been lazy in getting a retaining ring made for it and put on a lensboard. This post made me wonder if anyone might have emperical knowledge to motivate me to action!!!

best of luck for those moving into the format. Its a joy once you get going.

Monty
Zebra

[sanking]

Sandy would know much better than I, but I'm surprised the 450mm Nikkor-M covers 20x24. My impression is that this is a tessar design, and tessars are generally thought of as having narrower coverage. Am I wrong about the lens being a tessar?

I was pretty surprised to find out that it covered 12X20. It is a tessar design, but the circle of illumination is very large, so much so that it easily covers 20X24 and slightly more. However, in order to get adequate performance on the corners, even for contact printing, it is necessary to stop the lens down as much as possible, f/90 if feasible. Diffraction takes a toll on resolution at that point, but there should still be 10-15 lpm in the center at f/90, which is beyond the threshold of resolution of the human eye. There will be much less on the corners, with some light fall off, but that is not such a bad thing.

In short, the 450mm Nikkor-M is not an ideal lens for 20X24, but it can be made to work.

Monty, I have no information on coverage of the 405 Kodak Portrait. Perhaps Jim Gali might know?

Sandy

[Jim Galli]

Monty, I have no information on coverage of the 405 Kodak Portrait. Perhaps Jim Galli might know? Sandy


No, I don't know either as 1417 is my largest. I would make an educated guess that at portrait distances it would be a fine choice. If the far corners are darkened a bit....so what ;) Maybe Tracy Storer has tried one?

[Mark Sawyer]

Thanks, Sandy! The Nikkor-M is a pretty impressive lens on 11x14; it's good to know it has more left in it...

Monty ~ If the 405 doesn't work out, remember that the 18" Verito converts to a 30". One more possibility...

[Tri Tran]

Sandy would know much better than I, but I'm surprised the 450mm Nikkor-M covers 20x24. My impression is that this is a tessar design, and tessars are generally thought of as having narrower coverage. Am I wrong about the lens being a tessar?

Mark,I have tested this one and it covers at F22.

[Tri Tran]

I shoot 20 x 24 on a regular basis. My lens set is as follows and seems to be a pretty decent mix of focal lengths;

f12/ 1000 Apo Germinar
f8-22 30 inch Rapid Rectilinear Dallmeyer (used mainly for my wet plate work)
f11 550 XXL Fine Art Lens from Schneider

I would love to have the 1100 Schneider Fine Art Lens but have spent enough money on the above already. I would sell a kidney for a Dallmeyer 8D so if you have one and want to sell it..... or you need a kidney let me know. I'll pony up.

Sandy a question;

Will a 405 Kodak Portrait lens cover 20 x 24 at portrait distances. I've heard reports of it covering 12 x 20 which gives me hope with my 20 x 24 racked out to one to one proportions. Of course trying it out would be best and I will but I have been lazy in getting a retaining ring made for it and put on a lensboard. This post made me wonder if anyone might have emperical knowledge to motivate me to action!!!

best of luck for those moving into the format. Its a joy once you get going.

Monty
Zebra

Monty,
I doubt it, but my Euryscop No 6 will cover for sure.

[Murray]

OK, this question/suggestion might be sacreligious, but to know where I'm coming from, if I ever did 20x24 if would be on a serious budget restriction.

Almost everyone who is using a 20x24 camera with film can probably afford the kind of lens under discussion.

So here's my thought. IF a convertible lens is under consideration, and it happens to be a (nearly) symmetrical double Gauss type, you know, like a Gundlach or Rapid Rectilinear, when you take half the lens off, all you have is basically an achromat with a stop (iris) spacing that is usable but not ideal. This statement applies to two cells with doublets. Maybe a 6-element lens separated is just a variation of this.

If I were me, I would look at a long achromat lens and iris from a surplus place. Another whimsical thought I had was an Ilex Process Paragon 15" lens I got cheap ($15?) (some people say it's 4-el, some say it's 6...I haven't checked). I was trying to see what cells I had would fit a #3 Ilex shutter (ok, #3 synchro electronic, maybe not identical thread), and the rear cell of the 15" IPP fit the shutter. I estimated 30+ inch f.l. and an iris mechanism in the shutter too.

Lastly, if that's not embarassing enough to have duck-taped junk hanging off your camera, a +1 diopter close-up lens is 1000 mm. Even a Series VI Kodak Portra +1 with roughly 40 mm clear aperture would give you f/25. Admittedly not an achromat, but that and a deep orange or red filter to narrow the spectrum might surprise you.

OK, post-lastly, there's always a pinhole, if you have time for the exposure..Hey, I should probably apologize by now.

Some of these suggestions may not be right (for various reasons)for most people who are making that kind of serious effort, but I seriously think they can work.

I don't know how large Andreas Feininger shot with a magnifying glass, but that has been done too.

[Monty McCutchen]

Tri,

Thank you for that information as I can be on the lookout for one. Can you give some insight on some of the qualities of the lens as I will have to claim ignorance as to its more flattering attributes.

Thanks in advance,

Monty

PS. Have you received your Chamonix reversible back 20 x 24 yet?



Monty,
I doubt it, but my Euryscop No 6 will cover for sure.

[Jim Galli]

Monty, I hope you'll tolerate me answering or partially answering your question to Tri. The Euryscop Series IV #6 is an 1880's Rapid Rectilinear of 21.33 Focal length that will cover about 70 degrees. They were so good that someone somewhere (Lens Vade Mecum?) has commented that it's a wonder they bothered with designing the anastigmat. It's a sharp lens with excellent contrast and on 2024 you'd surely see some decreased sharpness in the corners. It's nothing like the 16 Kodak Portrait or any of the soft focus lenses. At f6 it's just fine enough to make a remarkably smooth silky sharp portrait.

[Tri Tran]

Tri,

Thank you for that information as I can be on the lookout for one. Can you give some insight on some of the qualities of the lens as I will have to claim ignorance as to its more flattering attributes.

Thanks in advance,

Monty

PS. Have you received your Chamonix reversible back 20 x 24 yet?

Hi Monty,
The Euryscop is my favorite lens combo used on 20x24 with Ultrafine Lith film and is much less $$$ for the 20x24 FP-4 ( .07mm vs APHS .04mm Polyester base). With this combo I can do without the shutter i.e from 1s- 5 s exposure depends on the bellow draw. Just Like Jim said, is soft to the corners but I like it ...nice and warm. RR lens is very sharp in the center and soften out not like other portraits lens which soften the whole field.
My second lens to go with my 20x24 is the Artar Red dot in Aluminum barrel. It covers 20x24 with movements . Nice,small, sharp and fairly inexpensive.
My other lens which I have and it cover up to 18x22 is 18 Inches Kodak Wide field Ektar copy lens single coated . This is a really nice lens. Sharp and contrast. This is the excellent lens for 16x20 format user. Get it while you can.Too bad is does not cover 20x24.
That's it. The 550 is always in my dream .BTW my convertible is up in the air according to Hugo. It will land it here soon. Cheers.

[erie patsellis]

Out of curiosity, anybody else have a 21 1/4" Ektar? I've heard some amazing i.c. claims, and I know that it definately illuminates a 16x20 (with gobs of movements), at least dry shooting (until it warms up enough to spend more than a few mins out it the garage and I can get my filmholders built). How well remains to be seen, when I can load film I'll know for sure.

erie