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Mark_C
19-Jun-2007, 17:28
Hello everyone

I wonder if anybody has some experience photographing Missions of California. What is allowed? Tripods and the LF camera are OK? How about the interiors? Are the grounds accessible during certain hours or is it possible to arrive very early or stay late?

Did anybody need a permit from superiors?

Do you have any preferred places and are willing to share the info? I am kind of scared to find them being very tourist oriented, I've read some have cinemas showing movies of their history. Is it another Disneyland or will I find them as quiet places? I hope for some solitude while photographing. Are there any fees to enter?

Which ones did you find as having unique architecture? Well it's likely all of them are unique, but I want to hear your opinions. Are there any other churches/places of worship than the Catholic Missions worth visiting - that you know of?

Mark C

Jack Flesher
19-Jun-2007, 18:14
I don't have all your answers, but here is some information to get you started...

First off, all the missions I have been to have regular visiting hours, usually 8 or 9 in the morning to 5 or so at night. However, some are not fenced in, so you can conceivably hang out on the grounds all day. San Juan Bautista is one like this. Carmel OTOH closes at the end of the day and there's not much to see from the outside. Others have whole tourist cities built up around them like Mission San Diego.

I have used tripods (carefully) on several occasions and never been asked or bothered about them, but never set them up in the way of anything either.


Here is one of San uan Bautista cloisters from a few years ago, but please excuse the poor web jpeg:

http://jack.cameraphile.org/albums/album04/Cloisters_San_Jaun_Bat.jpg


Cheers and be sure to share some images!

Louie Powell
19-Jun-2007, 19:04
I photographed in the Carmel mission back in February.

I took the approach of simply walking in with the camera. No one seemed to be concerned about what I was doing. There is not a hard fee for entry, but there is a "voluntary donation".

No, it's not Disneyland, but Carmel wasn't totally empty. We were there just before noon, and there were probably 15-20 other people wandering around. There were also a couple of guys in the balcony tuning the organ, so it wasn't totally silent.

Rule #1 in a situation like that is to be respectful.
Rule #2 is to recognize that you don't own the place, and others have just as much right to be there. Be considerate and don't push any attitude.

I did a couple of exposures in the Basillica itself. Naturally, I screwed up one sheet (hate it when I do that), but the other negative is pretty good. But the exposure was very long (minutes), and there were people walking around and through the scene. Fortunately, they generally didn't dwell anywhere long enough to register on the film. But at a couple of points I chose to close the shutter as people paused to look at something, and then resume the exposure when they moved on. I set up the tripod between a couple of pews adjacent to the center aisle, and then used a little shift to compensate for being off center.

I have also been in the Santa Clara Mission, and while it was a fine example of mission architecture, it wasn't as interesting photographically. And it was much darker. There was no fee at Santa Clara - which also serves as the Chapel for the University of Santa Clara.

I'm sure that there are other churches that are photographically interesting, but the Missions have the advantage of being promoted as tourist destinations, and there is no issue with walking in with a camera. In other instances, you might want to call or write ahead.

I really like LF photographs of architectural interiors, and I have found that the world is pretty much divided into two camps - the places where photography is fully accepted, and the places where it is totally forbidden. Spousal unit and I are going to Boston in a couple of weeks, and one of the places we plan to visit is the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum. I took the precaution of sending them an e-mail, and they replied that they don't allow photography at all. I know that both Fort Ticonderoga and the Hancock Shaker Museum allow photography, but forbid tripods (for crowd safety in the former, and out of concern for the wooden floors in the latter). On the other hand, Fort Knox in Bucksport, ME welcomes photography.

Ralph Barker
19-Jun-2007, 20:23
My experience has been somewhat mixed. Most of the missions I've visited were very open to photography, even with a tripod. Only one, I can't remember which, was totally commercialized (perhaps to pay for the restoration), and a huge turn-off. Some still hold services, so you have to figure out the schedule for the particular spot, and work around that. Non-vacation-time week days may work out best.

http://www.rbarkerphoto.com/Misc/Missions/MSI072002-0301a-550bw.jpg

steve simmons
19-Jun-2007, 20:26
There is one outside of Paso Robles that is off the beaten path. I think it is called San Antonio de Padua or something very close to that name. It may be the most rustic and least restored af any mission in CA.

steve simmons

AnselAndy
19-Jun-2007, 21:09
Mission San Luis Rey in Oceanside went out of their way to inform me commercial photography was not allowed without prior approval, and all I was carrying was a Canon 10D.

John Kasaian
19-Jun-2007, 21:31
A few are State Parks, many are still active parishes. The California coast in tourist season is a nightmare of tour busses, so I strongly recommed shooting in the early morning, before the tourist mobs invade. I always go to the information desk and ask for permission first as a common courtesy. The Mission that Ralph was referring to is probably the one in Carmel---a beatiful building with a famous fountain in the courtyard but like Ralph says, its a turn-off. The Mission Steve is referring to is San Antonio de Padua and is in the middle of Fort Hunter Liggett. It is quite a place, off the beaten path and very rustic. There is also a retreat house there where you can get a room if you want to really experience what a rustic mission but you'll need reservations. I think at least one other missioin down SanDiego way offers rooms as well.

The mission itself is only a fragment of the original property and I've been trying to get permission to photograph structures "on the Fort" for some time now. It can be done, but you'll need to know exactly which structures you want to request. There is so much stuff here a study was done on making it into a National Park a few years back. The result of the study IIRC, was that the mission was at least secured, being within an active military base, and thats how it will stay until funding is available to enable the NPS to take over security.

As a practical matter, don't plan on photographing the interior of the shurch when the mass, funerals, or the sacrament of reconciliation are being celebrated---the times are usually posted & most missions which are active churches have websites that will inform you of times and other info you might find useful---especially points of contact and significant or historic art & architecture. My favorites are San Juan Bautista, Santa Ynez, San Miguel and San Antonio de Padua. San Miguel was damaged by an earthquake a while back and I don't know to what extent its been re-opened. Santa Ynez sits at the base of a road that winds up the mountains past a lot of wineries (in case you're thirsty) the photogenic little village of Ballard (a neat B&B if you're looking for a place for the night) to Los Olivos where Mattei's Tavern serves some great food (in case you're hungry!) Consider that these are basically built of mud and straw 200-300 years ago (on earthquake faults no less!) as temporary buildings by people who had never even seen the great cathedrals of europe and meld the simplicity of simple adobe structures with a unique mix of spanish and native art and they really are quite interesting. One of my favorite places to visit are the adjoining cemetaries. A mission-oid I really like is the old royal chapel of the Presidio(the spanish one) in Montery. It is a little church in downtown Montery the locals can steer you to---its very old and very beautiful and delightfully ignored by the tourist mob, as is the mission in Santa Cruz (I think!) For a unique prespective of the Santa Cruz mission, take a ride on the Beach Train to Felton---it goes through a tunnel dug underneath the mission cemetary--- :eek: ----bring a flash ;)

These buildings are very expensive to maintain and repair and a few dollars left in the jar I've found are always appreciated.

John Kasaian
19-Jun-2007, 21:37
Oh man, if you go to Santa Cruz--the prawn burrito at the Palomar!

Emmanuel BIGLER
20-Jun-2007, 02:38
I have a story I'd like to share with the group about California Missions.

I had the pleasure to stay for 6 months in the Bay Area in 1990 and I had in mind the famous movie "Vertigo" by Alfred Hitchcock, so it was inevitable for me, coming from Europe, to go for a pilgrimage where some famous scenes of the movie had taken place. Also (should I dare to say this here ? probably not ! ;) ) in my childhood I never missed any episode of Walt Disney's "Zorro" TV series (in B&W, not colorized, of course !) , so I had a certain idea of California that I needed to compare with reality ;)

A Californian friend mentioned that the relevant mission for the movie was San Juan Bautista, so I drove there from San Francisco ( a very short drive according to Northern American standards :cool: )and was dissapointed : no "Vertigo" tower in San San Juan Bautista !! A nice bell tower, of course, but no tower and no spiral stairs !!

After seeing the movie again, I realized that the very few images of the "mission" in its whole are displayed for a very short time and are probably re-built.. in Hollywood. Or is-it a mixture with another real mission, where there is a real tower ?

So if you go to San Juan Bautista, forget about Vertigo's tower and enjoy the place !

Not kidding, I must confess that for a European, touring California (without GPS and no Internet route planner at the time, only the AAA maps ) to find the different missions is an unforgettable experience.

j.e.simmons
20-Jun-2007, 04:11
Get the Vertigo DVD - either the commentary or the "Making of" documentary explains that the tower shots are matte shots.
juan

Ralph Barker
20-Jun-2007, 06:03
. . . The Mission that Ralph was referring to is probably the one in Carmel . . .

It wasn't Carmel, which was open and cooperative when I went there. A grounds keeper even opened the rustic wooden gate for me, so I could get a shot of the basilica through the open gate.

The one I referred to earlier was one in Southern CA, perhaps San Juan Capistrano. You were required to buy a ticket ($10 or so, as I recall) to enter, and there was a narrow steel turnstile gate that was too small for my rolling camera case.

shmoo
20-Jun-2007, 06:23
Others have whole tourist cities built up around them like Mission San Diego.



There are 2 missions in San Diego. There's the "new" one that you speak of and the original which is in Mission Valley off of Friars Road on Rancho Mission Rd.

John Kasaian
20-Jun-2007, 07:57
It wasn't Carmel, which was open and cooperative when I went there. A grounds keeper even opened the rustic wooden gate for me, so I could get a shot of the basilica through the open gate.

The one I referred to earlier was one in Southern CA, perhaps San Juan Capistrano. You were required to buy a ticket ($10 or so, as I recall) to enter, and there was a narrow steel turnstile gate that was too small for my rolling camera case.

I'm glad to hear that it wasn't Carmel. I've heard bad things from visitors about Carmel about being goughed for $$. I haven't been to San Juan Capistrano but La Purisma near Lompoc is a State Park which I would expect would charge a fee--(but I don't know how much!)

Turner Reich
20-Jun-2007, 08:10
Just approach as if you were going into someones home. I have been in many missions and I make a donation if I see a box, talk to people there as a point of contact, acted careful, deliberate, and friendly. Misson Santa Barbara is beautiful.

Curt Palm
20-Jun-2007, 08:19
I have a story I'd like to share with the group about California Missions.

I had the pleasure to stay for 6 months in the Bay Area in 1990 and I had in mind the famous movie "Vertigo" by Alfred Hitchcock, so it was inevitable for me, coming from Europe, to go for a pilgrimage where some famous scenes of the movie had taken place. Also (should I dare to say this here ? probably not ! ;) ) in my childhood I never missed any episode of Walt Disney's "Zorro" TV series (in B&W, not colorized, of course !) , so I had a certain idea of California that I needed to compare with reality ;)

A Californian friend mentioned that the relevant mission for the movie was San Juan Bautista, so I drove there from San Francisco ( a very short drive according to Northern American standards :cool: )and was dissapointed : no "Vertigo" tower in San San Juan Bautista !! A nice bell tower, of course, but no tower and no spiral stairs !!

After seeing the movie again, I realized that the very few images of the "mission" in its whole are displayed for a very short time and are probably re-built.. in Hollywood. Or is-it a mixture with another real mission, where there is a real tower ?

So if you go to San Juan Bautista, forget about Vertigo's tower and enjoy the place !

Not kidding, I must confess that for a European, touring California (without GPS and no Internet route planner at the time, only the AAA maps ) to find the different missions is an unforgettable experience.

The 101 freeway has been built since the movie was made and the gate to San Jaun Bautista that Jimmy Stewart's car drives through now sits unused in the freeway right-of-way. Also the big Eucalyptus grove they drive through on the way to the mission is south of the San Juan Bautista trun-off, so you don't drive through it to get to the mission.

Emmanuel BIGLER
20-Jun-2007, 08:51
Thanks to Juan and Curt to feed my passion for the famous Hitchcock movie !

Jeffrey Sipress
20-Jun-2007, 09:24
I live a half mile from the Santa Barbara Mission, considered the mother of all missions. It is the most photographed structure in this town. No restictions, except perhaps for the interior. Nearby me is the La Purisima Mission in Lompoc. I've walked all over that place with LF gear with no problems, often two of us with twice the gear. Here's one of my favs from there:

http://machinearts.com/fredphotos/missionkitchen.jpg

Robert Oliver
20-Jun-2007, 09:39
IMO, San Juan Bautista is the toughest to shoot. I got ran for shooting LF with a tripod, even though they let the 30D crowd shoot with their tripods.

Oceanside has always been easy to shoot, along with San Diego.

The Best two in my opinion are La Purisima and San Antonio because they are both in remote settings. You can even take a dog with you to La Purisima as long as it's on a leash. Mission San Miguel was also a good shoot.

Santa Barbara is used to the Brookies so they seemed pretty relaxed.

I didn't pull the camera out at Ventura.

San Luis Obispo is easy to shoot from the outside, but inside they seemed to control tripod access.

I'm still working on getting to the rest of them.

With all, I'm sure it depends on who is working and how busy it is.

Greg Coates
20-Jun-2007, 10:07
I've been to the Carmel mission. I asked if I could shoot with a tripod and was told that I could. Just don't show up during mass as the mission is an active worship center.

BrianShaw
20-Jun-2007, 10:27
For the missions that are still active parish churches, I've had good luck showing up just after morning Mass - before they open for the tourists. Several times there has been a nice "church lady" or sacristan that has given me the run-of-the-house during that quiet time. I typically shoot MF at the missions to make life easier on myself, but haven't yet run into a problem with tripod use or fees other than admission.

BrianShaw
20-Jun-2007, 10:29
... but La Purisma near Lompoc is a State Park which I would expect would charge a fee--(but I don't know how much!)

Five bucks

Eric Woodbury
20-Jun-2007, 13:16
I like San Miguel and San Antonio. No hassles. San Antonio is on the Hunter Liggett Army Base, so be sure to have ID, registration, and proof of insurance or you will be stuck. From San Antonio Mission, it is an easy and pretty drive through to the coast above San Simeon. Also, there is a camp ground on the base.

tgtaylor
20-Jun-2007, 14:59
I've been photographing the missions on and off now for about a year with mostly LF (Field and View) equiptment and have encountered no restrictions or problems other than technical. Once, while photographng the altar of the Carmel mission with a view camera, a priest entered the church to prepare for his upcoming mass and noticed that the lights to the alter were turned off and had the janitor turn them on!

Be sure to leave a donation as the missions, although both California and Federal historical sites, are not eligble for government aid and must fund their own restoration.

John Kasaian
21-Jun-2007, 22:00
Mark,
If you're driving out from Texas, check out the spanish missions in New Mexico and Arizona. Several in New Mexico have prohibitions on photography I understand, but it would be worth at least checkng them out anyway. Most of the ones I've seen are quite beautiful.

Ben Calwell
22-Jun-2007, 05:53
Back in the early 1980s, Broooks Institute students swarmed all over the mission in Santa Barbara taking photos -- no problems.

Mark_C
22-Jun-2007, 17:29
Hello everyone

I want to thank for all your posts - your comments, instructions and directions are very much appreciated. The discussion and all your excellent photographs made me even more willing to go to all those places, it is hard to predict how many I can visit during my travel...

-Mark C

C. D. Keth
24-Jun-2007, 14:59
Here is one of San uan Bautista cloisters from a few years ago...

Beautiful place which reminds me: If you want to see more of San Juan Bautista, watch Vertigo :)

Mark_C
14-Jan-2008, 15:43
Hello again

Driving from Nevada we enjoyed views of Death Valley NP and I must admit I wanted to stay there! Well, then we went to Lone Pine and I wanted to stay there too...

After a couple days of staring in amazement at not so distant Sierra Nevada range and wandering in the Alabama Hills we set for the coast. Below is the link to some of the resulting photographs from our trip
http://homepage.mac.com/zbigniew/pages/nv_ca/nevada_and_california.html

Everywhere we went we met very friendly people. The info centre in Lone Pine (just at the end of road from Death Valley NP) is a blessing after the heat. Plus they had an excellent selection of guides, books, info leaflets and maps.

The Spanish Missions on the coast: I was able to stop in seven of them (out of 21 I believe), chosen before the trip. It was not surprising to find some of them in need of repairs or renovations, and yet it is probably good that "tourists industry" have not commercialized all of them. Hidden pearls in my view!

In San Miguel both the church and cemetery are off limits due to the safety concerns after the damaging quake. Yet the museum is accessible and open - worth visiting and leaving a penny for reconstruction.

In the church of Carmel mission I could not attend any of the weddings of that day - "private ceremonies". In the church, private ceremony? Other than that time I could photograph all over the place - they are used to strangers with cameras.

Someday - I'll be back there.

-Mark C

domenico Foschi
14-Jan-2008, 17:26
Last year I went with Hugo Zhang, and Tri at the San Juan Capistrano mission.
We, I should say, they caused quite a stir, since Tri had an 11x14 and Hugo his new 12x20 if I recall.
I had a Minox(SPeed graphic).
Nobody told us anything, aside of the usual questions.
I know this image is not really representative of the place, nevertheless...

http://i9.tinypic.com/6oagzt5.jpg

Monty McCutchen
14-Jan-2008, 20:53
When I grow up I want to be Domenico!!!!!!!!!!

Well done and then some--

Monty

John Kasaian
14-Jan-2008, 21:10
Some of my faves are Mission Santa Ynez by Solvang and Mission San Antonio de Padua, which is surrounded by Ft. Hunter Liggett. Also the Royal Chapel of the Presidio of Monterey is still standing which IIRC predates the current Mission Carmel. In Southern California there are also mission buildings which are now private property-----IIRC one old chapel is (now) a barn. Not very impressive on the outside after modernization but the inside is way cool! These buildings are identified on some maps of historical sites but to get access sounds like a hassle.

Jim Fitzgerald
14-Jan-2008, 21:35
John, nice to hear access at the San Antonio Mission is not a problem. I pass it all of the time. I sell in the area and points south. I've seen it and the buildings on the fort that are in a state of decay and I would love to shoot the 8x20 and 8x10 up there. I guess i should start with the Mission. It is really easy to get to. I want to check out the mission in Santa Cruz also. My son is in his second year at UCSC and I go up when I can. There are some great spots on campus by the way. Also, prawn burritos at the Palomar is some fine eating!


Jim

John Kasaian
14-Jan-2008, 22:32
Prawn Burrito at El Palomar (sigh) I'm getting hungry! :D

For a really spooky time take a trip on the Beach train. It goes through a tunnel dug under the Santa Cruz mission cemetary---the graves are overhead. Darned chilly and dark!

domenico Foschi
15-Jan-2008, 01:03
Thank you, Monty.:)

John Kasaian
15-Jan-2008, 14:08
Beautiful place which reminds me: If you want to see more of San Juan Bautista, watch Vertigo :)

Funny thing about the belfry in Vertigo is that it's not at San Juan Bautista. The old non-original goth belfry was torn down years ago and replaced with a spanish style belfry and the actual belfry used in the movie was based on the goth IIRC and was a movie prop.

What makes San Juan especially nice is that it is surrounded by a State Park which has preserved much of the later 'gringo' architecture (think Matt Dillon, Festus, Doc & Kitty;) )

Bill_1856
15-Jan-2008, 17:05
Just buy a postcard and go on to something that hasn't already been done to death.

mslr
11-Jun-2015, 05:55
Hi,

here are the rules at Oceanside Mission http://www.sanluisrey.org/about-us/press-room/

Personal photography is allowed on the grounds in front of the Mission; and in the Church NON-FLASH ONLY/ NO TRIPODS. Flash photography is not allowed in the museum or in the Historic Church. The private, inner gardens of the Mission grounds are off limits. Commercial/model photography at the Mission requires permission in advance, a fee, and insurance. Videography is allowed in outdoor areas only.

Drew Wiley
11-Jun-2015, 10:00
My sister had the landscaping contract for San Juan Bautista - for the larger State Park owned portion, that is, perimeter to the buildings per se, which are still managed by the Friars and Broilers. So I've been around those digs quite a bit. That little town and its mission are very popular for weddings. Otherwise, it's a
well-kept secret. With a bit of luck you can get decent lodging and eats in San Juan Bautista quite a bit more affordably than around Monterey of Pacific Grove. If you try to find low-cost lodging right around Monterey, you'll end up in seedy Seaside sleeping with bedbugs. But photographically, I think the mission out on Hunter-Ligget is much more interesting. There is a checkpoint before entering the Military reservation, and you can't stop just anywhere you wish. But all the historical section is accessible, and there's a beautiful drive-thru option down to Lucia on Hwy 1, overlooking the Ocean just south of the Big Sur area.

Kevin Crisp
11-Jun-2015, 11:04
I've been to quite a few CA missions. The only bad experience I had was at the San Gabriel Mission, a place I'd been photographing for 30+ years. I was standing in the cemetery with the client I'd taken there, looking at its best Jesus statute. (Recently destroyed by night time vandals, I read in the paper.) I don't think I had a tripod, but possible. I think I was using a Pentax 6x7.

Out storms this witch of an older woman, yelling at us about our lack of respect and failure to "even ask permission." We had already made the necessary donation to take the tour. This quickly became a tirade on the fact that photographers photograph the mission's famous row of bells and sell the images and they don't get money for that. Those photos are typically taken from across the street, by the way. Maybe we caught her on a bad day.

Drew Wiley
11-Jun-2015, 12:28
The rules can formally differ when one crosses the indistinct boundary between what is State owned and what is Church owned. Usually there are some polite
little signs here and there. And in the better restored and staffed Missions there if often some kind of mini-gift-shop/visitor-center explaining the rules. The old
Padre who used to run San Juan Bautista had a wonderful sense of humor; but one was still expected to be respectful of the sanctuary and follow the photographic rules indoors. The famous outdoor corridor itself is fair game, however. I've never shot it myself, but if the lighting intrigued me, I wouldn't hesitate no matter how many thousands of shots have been taken there. None of them would resemble my own print anyway. Nuance is everything. But so far, that hasn't happened. In fact, I don't know if I've ever taken any shot at San Juan Bautista. Can't remember ever doing one. Fun place to visit, regardless.

BrianShaw
11-Jun-2015, 13:36
The rules can also differ when one encounters a nice church lady. I think I met Kevin's lady at San Juan Capistrano, yet at Santa Inez the nice lady let me in before hours because she saw my camera/tripod and wanted me to be able to photograph with out visitors interfering. At San Juan Capistrano the nice lady just wagged a finger and reminded me that no commercial photography is allowed... but smiled when I told her that I might have decent gear but I'm not good enough to be a commercial photographer. It all depends on the church lady and her attitude!

Leszek Vogt
11-Jun-2015, 13:55
Although I lived close to the San Luis Obispo one for many years, I probably visited 90% of the 32 original missions. I never had problems taking photos at any of them, but with hefty tripod this could have been different. Each may have slightly different policy or hours. Depending on light conditions, they are all quite photogenic. The one in Santa Barbara was cool, since I'd try to use the water fountain reflection (w/pola filter)....and the koi fish in there would really pop on the film. I'd venture to guess that the fish are gone due to racoons.

Les

Drew Wiley
11-Jun-2015, 14:00
Docents and volunteers aren't necessarily expected to know all the rules themselves, esp in this era when 99% percent of visitors are snapping pics with a cell phone. Nuns can be tough. But I've been chewed out for tripods in at various locations by suspicious neighbors or mere tourists who had exactly zero authority.
Generally being polite and humorous helps; but sometimes, only "bug off" seems to work. With anyone law-enforcement related, regardless of whether or not
they belong there, politeness is common sense. Far more often a docent if more likely to be an annoyance by asking too many personal photography questions,
assuming you're an expert because of the serious gear. Comes with the territory, which is exactly why I tend to avoid touristy places altogether.

John Kasaian
11-Jun-2015, 14:31
I always ask permission to photograph at any church, and I've yet to have been denied. Some missions, like Carmel are operated like tourist attractions and may even charge for admission to help keep up the buildings. Fair enough. FWIW the tourist crowd at the missions are pretty thick in the summer and when I shoot at the missions I like to clear out by 10:00AM before the buses unload.
A rare few of the missions, (San Antonio de Padua IIRC at least before the last quake damage) have a retreat house and you can sometimes get lodging overnight---austere and simple fare in one of the original adobes, with no modern conveniences ...tv/phone/wifi etc... but it provides access to the mission grounds during the golden hours and sometimes interesting night photography opportunities, just don't disturb the other guests on retreat.

BrianShaw
11-Jun-2015, 14:33
Although I lived close to the San Luis Obispo one for many years, I probably visited 90% of the 32 original missions. I never had problems taking photos at any of them, but with hefty tripod this could have been different. Each may have slightly different policy or hours. Depending on light conditions, they are all quite photogenic. The one in Santa Barbara was cool, since I'd try to use the water fountain reflection (w/pola filter)....and the koi fish in there would really pop on the film. I'd venture to guess that the fish are gone due to racoons.

Les

I've never seen koi; but I also have never seen fat raccoons, either. I wonder where they went?

Kevin Crisp
11-Jun-2015, 14:37
Fish were there two years ago.

BrianShaw
11-Jun-2015, 17:22
Maybe I need to be more observant. ��