Wooden 5x7 holder won't hold 5x7 film?!

[Scott --]

Hi, all -

I picked up as a small rehab project an old wooden 5x7 holder, unmarked. Cleaned up nicely, but when I go to load it, my film won't stay put. While the little guides are just under 5" apart, the film's actually only 4-15/16" wide, just a smidge more than the guides. If it's centered just so, the film will sit between the guides, but will slide to and fro, and flops out if the holder's not laying flat.

I'm in dire need of 5x7 holders, and want to make this work. Any suggestions? Is there a way to tighten up the space behind the guides so the film can't slide quite so freely? Or is it just a delicate touch in loading that eludes me?

Scott

[Nick_3536]

I know some of my 8x10s are a touch wider then the plastic holders. The standard has some play in it. OTOH a film holder should hold film .

Those rails sound too big. You sure it's a 5x7 film holder? If you think about it the holder should mask off a bit more of the film. In your case it's more then full frame.

[Scott --]

If I center the film between the guides, the edges match up with the edges from my Fidelity holder. There's just tons more room to either side of the film beneath the guides, so the filmm slides to one edge, and then it wants to flop out on the other side.

What size nominal is 13x18cm?

[Ole Tjugen]

13x18cm is nominal 13x18cm, less the 2-3mm lost in the transition from glass plates to film. So the nominal size is very very close to 127x178mm, or in other words pretty exactly 5 inches by 7 inches. :)

[Scott --]

The gate opening on this is 6-3/4" by 4-3/4+". Still looks like 5x7. There's just an inordinate amount of room to either side of the film edges. Was older 5x7 film larger or something?

[Nick_3536]

Well if 13x18 is 5x7 that would fit your holders just fine. You lose 1/4" which off the top of my head doesn't sound like too much.

[Nick_3536]

I take it back. You lose 1/8" each side. Which sounds even better.

[Scott --]

Bah. I don't want to buy special film for just one holder...

[Gene McCluney]

Perhaps I am unclear on this, but this sounds more like a half-plate size film holder, however half-plate is actually a smidge smaller than 5x7.

[Nick_3536]

Bah. I don't want to buy special film for just one holder...

Might be perfect for the 5x7 lith film freestyle sells :cool:

[Ole Tjugen]

Let me just remind everyone that 5x7" film has also lost a few mm each side in the transition from glass plates to film so that 5x7" film is not 5 inches by 7 inches. It's more like 4 7/8" by 6 7/8".

Scott, are you sure those aren't plate holders?

[Steve Clark]

Are you sure its a film holder and not a plate holder?

[Steve Clark]

Sorry about the redundant reply, looks like Ole pushed the button first!

[Sandeha]

Bah. I don't want to buy special film for just one holder...


Er ... you might have to. My good holders are Kodak and Burke & James but I have one marked BACO, Hollywood (barely visible in the metalwork) which is 5x7 but will only take Wephota NP 15 (ISO25) sheet film which is cut a fraction wider. Does yours have a circular depression in the center of the backs?

Half plate is a significantly different size of film. You won't get 5x7 film into it without cutting off several millimeters from the edges. It's canny though, as half plate holders will fit a 5x7 camera and you can get the film. :cool:

[Nick_3536]

If they're plate holders won't the depth be off to?

[Scott --]

Don't know as this'll help, but here ya go:
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j185/bliorg/IMG_1908.jpg

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j185/bliorg/IMG_1909.jpg

In that second image, you can kinda make out that the negative fits under the guides, but has enough room at the edges that it'll slip out. The guides are spaced 4-13/16" apart; the wooden edges are exactly 5".

Thoughts?

[Donald Qualls]

Hi, all -

I picked up as a small rehab project an old wooden 5x7 holder, unmarked. Cleaned up nicely, but when I go to load it, my film won't stay put. While the little guides are just under 5" apart, the film's actually only 4-15/16" wide, just a smidge more than the guides. If it's centered just so, the film will sit between the guides, but will slide to and fro, and flops out if the holder's not laying flat.

I'm in dire need of 5x7 holders, and want to make this work. Any suggestions? Is there a way to tighten up the space behind the guides so the film can't slide quite so freely? Or is it just a delicate touch in loading that eludes me?

Scott

Most likely you have a glass plate holder and will need a film sheath that fits it to use it with cut film. Worse, the registration distance for plate holders may not match that of holders originally made for cut film; there were several standards prior to WWII and your holder might easily have been made for one of those.

Alternately, if the slot the film goes into isn't a lot thicker than the film (glass plates are/were about 1 or 1.5 mm thick, which would be obviously oversize for film), you might have a 13x18 cm film holder. With modern ANSI compliant holders, 13x18 and 5x7 are interchangeable in the same backs, but the film differs by a few millimeters in width; some 13x18 holders are tight enough to retain 5x7 film, and some 5x7 are loose enough to accept 13x18, but you can't really count on that...

Edit: Okay, was replying from page 1, on page 2 I see the photo of the holder -- that's a film holder, not a plate holder, so it's probably a 13x18 size. Good news is, the film isn't too hard to get (Ole can probably send you any kind you like, since 13x18 is as common in Europe as 5x7 is here); bad news is, if it's the only 13x18 you have, it's probably not worth the effort. However, if it's in good shape, you might be able to trade it to someone in Europe for a real 5x7 holder that they've found too small for their film. Alternately, you could use Ole's marmalade technique to hold the 5x7 film flat in the holder and use it as is...

[Ole Tjugen]

... The guides are spaced 4-13/16" apart; the wooden edges are exactly 5".

Thoughts?

With that spacing it can be either a 13x18cm film holder, or a 5x7" plate holder. whether it's for film or plates is most easily determined by the space under the rails - glass plates are about 1.5mm thick. Plate holders also tend to have a spring or pressure plate somewhere.

[Sandeha]

that's a film holder, not a plate holder, so it's probably a 13x18 size.

You know I supect it's 5x7, but just lacking standardised measurements or accuracy. My Wephota NP15 is 1.5mm wider than the Wephota NP22, but that allows the NP15 to fit in my 'odd' holder. Less than 2mm difference makes all the difference, but it's nowhere near 13x18cm.

I guess this might be a case where I got lucky with a badly cut batch of film.

[Vaughn]

If there is no problem with the film plane and the GG plane matching, then you might try a piece of double-sided tape to hold the film in the holder.

Vaughn

[Scott --]

Well, there's exactly 1/32" of room under the guides. Looking more and more like 13x18.

I might try it one more time with 5x7, but I'm not likely to buy a separate batch of film just for this one holder. Anyone have an old beater 5x7 holder they want to trade for a 13x18?

[Nick_3536]

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/sc_prod.php?cat_id=&pid=1189

If you ever want to play with that you'll be happy for that holder. ;)

[Ole Tjugen]

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/sc_prod.php?cat_id=&pid=1189

If you ever want to play with that you'll be happy for that holder. ;)

No surprise there - paper and lith film tends to follow the nominal plate sizes, so this would fit nicely in a 13x18cm holder. :)

[Scott --]

Ok, why would I want to use lith film? What're the pros/cons?

[Nick_3536]

Well it's cheap -) It's slow. It's ortho. It's high contrast normally.

Likely other benefits. Just pick the ones you like best.

[Sandeha]

Nice slow high contrast film ... good for still life, less useful for portraits, never tried it on landscape.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a119/Sandeha/still_life/th_bear_tools_ortho_10t.jpg (http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a119/Sandeha/still_life/bear_tools_ortho_10t.jpg)

[Donald Qualls]

It's very useful if you want to shoot a long exposure (for instance, to erase people from a busy street scene); it's got extremely fine grain, you can develop by inspection under the same red safelight you may already use to print. It's nice for making masks and interpositives or enlarged negatives, too, it's not just for use in a camera. Get the two part Lith developer for it, and you can do neat stuff like posterization, value masks, genuine half-toning, and other stuff for which a high contrast film is useful.