Norman strobe packs query

[Michael Mutmansky]

I'm looking to get my hands on a Norman strobe pack or two and a few heads. Most probably the older 2000 and 4000 watt packs.

What I'm not finding is information on-line about the various models of packs that have existed in the past, and am wondering if there is a resource for this out there?

If not, anyone know the line well enough to help me out?

In particular, excluding the current models, there were models called the 2000 and 2000D and possibly a 2000X, and similar models for the 4000 series as well. Can anyone tell me what the real differences are between them?

Secondly, these things will be used in the field, and I don't have control over the power available all the time. Is it possible to plug two of the 2000 watt packs into a standard 15-amp circuit and not blow a fuse or trip the breaker? If I don't use the modelling lights, I'm hoping that should be possible...


---Michael

[Mike Davis]

Michael,

If you settle on a particular model, Norman will send you a copy of the manual. A couple of years ago, it was free, but that may have changed.

I would be afraid to plug 2- 2000's into a single 15 amp circuit (or even a 20 amp for that matter).


Mike

[Oren Grad]

Some late-model 2400 ws packs have a "slow charge" switch to allow use in situations where the power supply is marginal, such as on a household 15 amp circuit. From research I did while shopping for a power pack last year I know that at least Calumet/Bowens and Profoto currently offer this feature, though neither brand is cheap.

My recollection from asking around last year was that Norman pack/head combinations had a reputation for being not especially efficient in terms of light output per rated ws, which would make the problem worse. Also, if you're planning to double up to achieve 4000-4800 ws, you're going to be pushing it for sure.

[Michael Graves]

A few years back, I had a 2000D. I switched to speedotron after the capacitors in the Norman died the second time. The first was under warranty and they fixed it. The second time they wanted more to fix it than I paid for a really nice Speedo 2400 with 2 102 heads.

Two tips. A 2000D will suck every coulomb out of a 15A circuit. Two will most likely pop the circuit breaker. Secondly, I get more output out of a single head in a 1200WS outlet on the 2400 than I ever got out of a 2000D. Norman wouldn't be my first choice.

[David A. Goldfarb]

You might also want to hunt around for information about safety upgrades on Norman packs. I forget what the serial number is, but with some of the older ones, it's recommended that the pack be turned off and discharged before throwing any switches on the pack to prevent arcing, but after a certain serial number, this isn't a problem.

I think Ellis Vener posted some comparisons of different heads with similar reflectors on photo.net somewhere with regard to the efficiency issue. His assessment is that the Norman heads are less efficient than others, but if you like the quality of the light (as I do), then you can decide how important efficiency is to you. As I recall, he had also had a Speedo head adapted to Norman (uses the same plug, I believe) but the pins are wired differently, so don't mix and match without re-wiring), and the Speedo head put out more light than the Norman at the same power setting.

I've been using Norman lights since about 1991. The packs are cheap and durable, and there is lots of Norman stuff out there, so it's not too hard to expand the setup. They also made a great fresnel head adapted from a Bardwell & McAlister adjustable spot housing, if you like Hollywood style lighting.

[Frank Petronio]

In the day, the 800 watt/sec Dynalite heads, in a softbox, were within 1/2 stop of the 2400 watt/sec Speedos, so there is a pretty wide range and watt/sec ratings don't mean alot between the brands. And guys tell me the Profotos are even more efficient than the Dynas... so go figure.

The Normans I used in the mid-80s all would arc and kill you (well, maim you) if you unplugged the cords while hot. Speedos too. Arcs of flame, whipping cords, not fun.

I wouldn't invest in them unless they were dirt cheap.

[Nick_3536]

How powerful are the other brands? Not to take this too far off the question.

With my Speedotron 200ws is often too much for smaller formats. I ended up buying ND gels for it. More control at the pack would be nice

[Mike Davis]

I have one of the, shall we say interesting, Norman powerpacks. I have never had a problem with it but I always use a switched extension cord (powerstrip) to plug it in. Then when I'm done shooting, I turn off the strip, discharge the power pack by firing the shutter, and then turn the pack off and disconnect the cables. It's a ritual I follow.


As for relative power, truthfully I haven't noticed. I use the Normans mostly for fill and backlight and a monostrobe for my key.

Mike

[Michael Mutmansky]

OK, thanks. I've heard of this issue with efficiency before, so I need to look into it a bit.

I'm interested in large amounts of output on location for architectural shooting in larger volume spaces. While the Dynalites seem to be pretty small for the output, They aren't seemingly as available on the used market in the higher wattage packages. Norman packs are fairly plentiful.

Cost is an issue, of course, and I really don't need the added features of the modern packs, so it doesn't seem to make sense to me to be getting the modern packs from most of those listed, and when it comes to reliability, I have heard good things about the Normans and the Black Line Speedotrons to be sure.

I guess I'll look around a bit more to see what other information I can find.

Are there any used dealers that carry lots of lighting?


---Michael

[David A. Goldfarb]

B&H always seems to have a lot of Norman packs in the used department, and Calumet usually has a good selection of used lighting equipment. Also check Norman's website for clearance items (http://www.photo-control.com/). There are often good deals there (or there used to be. I just checked and couldn't find the clearance listings.)

[Henry Ambrose]

I know you're asking about packs but I sure like my White Lightning mono lights. I mention them because they're not that expensive brand new with fine service and warranty. Four X1600s can make a lot of light. They recycle fast enough that you can do a lot of pops in a fairly short time if needed. No problem running two X1600s off one plug. (I've done three) Also, I sometimes use one of their inverter/battery packs and its really handy when there's no plug around.

[Michael Mutmansky]

Henry,

I have and use two x3200's and two x1600's regularly... They're great lights, but unfortunately not enough output for larger spaces. I can't shorten the exposure for the multiple pop approach any further than the maximum sync speed, and that can be a tremendous problem with daylight flooded spaces, which also happen to need some contrast balancing most of the time. Hence the desire for more power.

If I recall, I've run two 3200's and one 1600 on a circuit with no problems, and maybe both 3200's and 1600's as well, but I generally avoid doing that for obvious reasons. So far, I haven't tripped a breaker. I'll normally avoid using the modelling lights in these situations to avoid warming up the wiring with a constant load to add a bit more safety to the system.

The 4000 series Normans will work on a 15 amp circuit, which is why I was hoping that two 2000's would as well. However, I think the recycle time on the 2000 models is considerably shorter than the 4000, which would probably negate the possibility due to inrush current.


Michael

[Frank Petronio]

Personally I think the best bang for the buck in a reasonable durable package is a collection of the older D-series Dynalites. A Dyna 800 is almost the same power as a Speedo 2400, in a package half the size and weight, just as robust, and dirt cheap. I've bought a pack and head for $150. For $600 I got 2 packs, 4 blower heads. If I were hardcore I'd get even more.

[Henry Ambrose]

Michael,

Just thinking here, not trying to deny your needs or anything like that. I understand what you're saying about filling a big daylight lit space. And now that I think about it more I bet you're using an old shutter with pretty slow max speeds.

Why not just double up on what you have now? Would not twice the power you have now in one pop make it happen for you? Four more 3200s along with what you have now would make the sun blush. I'm thinking this way partly so you'd have all the same speed rings, reflectors, etc. to fit all your lights.

Of course if you found a deal like Frank mentioned you'd have to snap that up quick.

[neil poulsen]

I looked at a pair of 4000 ws Normans at our local pro shop. I thought I was following instructions when I turned the unit off, pressed the discharge button, and then toggled a switch to change the watt-seconds.

Ka-pow! That thing lit up like a Christmas tree.

Frankly, I wouldn't go near a 4000 watt-second Norman pack. Nor a 2000, etc. They can be lethal. I contacted the Norman service guy, and he said that the pack must have been defective.

I guess they can be used. But one has to do things just so, to avoid having a problem. Not for me.

[Michael Mutmansky]

Henry,

The problem I see with doubling up is that it ends up being an awful lot of equipment, and there is often very little room to place all the light stands and umbrellas and whatever. I'm thinking that a 2000 and maybe 4000 will give me the flexibility to put up an high wattage lantern when necessary, and the device can also be dialed back for more normal wattages as well.

A single 4000 unit will work on a 15amp circuit, whereas I'm about sure that four of the 3200's will not. They charge faster, and will end up tripping the breaker.

In the end, it's one way to solve the light balance problem, but not the only way. I have a very large interior space that I need to shoot soon, and need some plan in hand by then. At the moment, I'm not sure what I will do, but it feels like the Norman approach may work best for my needs.


---Michael

[neil poulsen]

I bought a couple of used, factory checked Dynalite M2000 packs from the service guy at Dynalite and hadn't used them for a while. To condition them, he had me connect them in series to a resistor circuit. That is, I spliced the resistor circuit into one of the two wires that would go into the AC plug. (Including the ground, it would be one of the three.)

The resistor circuit consisted of four 470 ohm, 25 watt resistors connected in parallel. In effect, I believe this would be the same as a 100 watt, 117.5 ohm resistor.

This increased the recharge time to a few seconds, versus the typical second or so. I would think that something of this kind could work.

The only thing is that, one of my packs won't come to a full charge with this setup. So, I would think that one could have a switch that would short out the resistor. My thought is to turn the pack on and let it charge for a few seconds, and then short out the resistor so that the pack then connects normally to the wall, thereby completing the charge.

I would think that the bulk of the charge would be through the resistor, so that it wouldn't blow a breaker. (Or a fuse.) Throwing the switch would complete the remaining charge.

I haven't tried this. But, I would consider trying it if I needed to photograph in an old house, or something.

By the way, I connected one pack at a time to this setup, not both at one time.

[Oren Grad]

I spoke to a technician at Dyna-Lite last year about the M2000. It's rated to draw 18 amps, and he advised against using it on a 15 amp line; there's no slow-charge switch on the Dynas. I wasn't comfortable messing with an electrical kludge, so I ended up looking elsewhere - with regret, because the Dynas seem to have a reputation for delivering good performance and excellent value for money.

Michael, to ask the obvious, is this a job for which it would be cost-effective to rent a set of appropriate high-end gear? That need not prejudice your decision about which brand you want to buy for yourself for the long run, but it would at least take off the immediate pressure over what is a pretty complicated buying decision.

[Henry Ambrose]

Oren's got a good idea - rental might well be an attractive solution.

Thinking about using old packs gives me the creeps. Like maybe I'd carry a fire extinguisher with me at all times. And have an assistant to call 911 after you get electrocuted. Nice modern rental lights sound lots safer.



snipped....

Michael, to ask the obvious, is this a job for which it would be cost-effective to rent a set of appropriate high-end gear? That need not prejudice your decision about which brand you want to buy for yourself for the long run, but it would at least take off the immediate pressure over what is a pretty complicated buying decision.

[Frank Petronio]

or just using tungsten and/or long exposures.

[David A. Goldfarb]

Or getting up a little earlier in the morning to balance indoor and outdoor light, if the space is accessible.

[neil poulsen]

I spoke to a technician at Dyna-Lite last year about the M2000. It's rated to draw 18 amps, and he advised against using it on a 15 amp line; there's no slow-charge switch on the Dynas.

Very interesting. Thanks for the information. Funny, because the Dynalite Service person didn't mention this. I've never had a problem, though. One thing, it only draws that amperage for about a second, so I don't think there's much worry about overheating wires, etc. I checked, and there's no electrical label on the pack that would indicate wattage, voltage, or amperage.

[Michael Mutmansky]

or just using tungsten and/or long exposures.

Getting my hands on 10,000 watts of tungsten will be just as complicated (and far more taxing on the electrical system) as a high powered pack, and I still have a color balance issue. I don't think you understand the problem with balancing daylight. You can't go to longer exposures. That forces smaller apertures, which reduces the effectiveness of the strobe.

Getting there earlier may work, but the sun angles can be a problem with penetration as the sun gets lower. Sunlight on the floor will look normal, but sunlight on the walls does not.

This isn't an issue for rentals, as there aren't any rental houses nearby and I'll need the power on a regular basis anyway, so I need to be thinking of a purchase. I've got plenty of time to make a decision and then execute the plan before I need the lighting, especially since I have some currently and it has worked fine for me in the smaller spaces.

Ultimately, nobody actually answered the original question. Is there information on the various older packs available? The Norman site has the manuals for a few of the older models, but not all, so I am able to glean a little information off them that is useful. I'll be placing a call to Norman, but I don't like to bother a live person if the information is readily available somewhere on-line.


---Michael

[David A. Goldfarb]

The Norman folks are very helpful whenever I've had a question. I wouldn't hesitate to call.

I've tried to figure out the subtle differences between the different packs, and they're usually things like different arrangements of the capacitors for more or less variation in power levels or more adjustability, or features like built-in optical slaves, and of course the safety upgrades between older and later packs. I haven't kept notes on them, but just compare the one I'm looking at to the ones I've had (P800D, P2000D, and the 200B and 200C portables).

P2000D's are probably the most common, and if you need 4000 W-s in one head and don't happen to have a 4000 W-s pack, you can combine two of them with an LH-4000 head.

[Michael Mutmansky]

David,

Thanks. That combined power feature is probably the most logical thing they did. It really makes the packs much more flexible and wouldn't force the need for a single high power pack for most people.

---Michael

[David A. Goldfarb]

Note that that feature only works with the LH-4000 heads, which have a dual tube and two plugs.

Another consequence of this arrangement is that if you use an LH-4000 head with both tubes at the same power as you would otherwise use an LH-2000 or LH-2400 head and only one tube, the flash duration using two tubes will be half what it is with one tube.

[Kirk Gittings]

Henry,
Please. I have been using two 2000 Norman packs (I own 8) since 1983. They have been used very very heavily, as I do multiple pops routinely. Aside from the odd switch failing, the only time I have ever arced a head was because of my own stupidity and there was no danger, just a little noise.

The old style Normans are heavy and bulky but far more reliable than the newer models. They are virtually bullet proof unless you do something really stupid (though they are not coffee proof, but that is another story). In 24 years I have only had to retire only a couple of packs and those were the newer models which could not take our abuse and periodic stupidity.

[Michael Mutmansky]

Kirk,

I know you use the 2000B models... when you say the 'newer' packs, do you mean the 24/24 or 40/40 packs? That is a couple of the options I'm looking at right now and trying to determine if they are suitable. They are certainly newer than the old 2000 and 4000 packs, but they are not terribly new in the scheme of things.

Thanks,


---Michael

[Oren Grad]

Very interesting. Thanks for the information. Funny, because the Dynalite Service person didn't mention this. I've never had a problem, though. One thing, it only draws that amperage for about a second, so I don't think there's much worry about overheating wires, etc. I checked, and there's no electrical label on the pack that would indicate wattage, voltage, or amperage.

Neil - the specification, characterized as "average power consumption", is included in both the full-line product brochure and the instruction manual, available on the Dyna-Lite web site.

I'm sure there are many situations where one can get away with it. At the same time, it's understandable that a Dyna-Lite representative would be conservative in his recommendation. In purchasing equipment for myself, I too decided to err on the side of safety.

[Henry Ambrose]

Kirk, I didn't mean to say anything bad about your lights. I meant my comments to be taken in regard to the stories littered through this thread of Norman packs and the resulting "electrical adventures". I'll pass on that, thank you very much! I've had two lights blow up in the last year and its not fun as you well know. I'm extra wary.

[Kirk Gittings]

Henry,

I don't think Normans are the best strobes, however there is allot of nonsense on forums about their reliability. Most of the issues are user malfunctions that people won't own up to.

If I was to invest in a new system, I would look at Dynalite mainly because I am getting old and lazy. BUT since I am now shooting much of mycommercial work DSLR, I need considerably less strobe and will stick with the Normans till I get out of the business.

Michael, My retired strobes are sitting on a shelf in my studio, but I am in Chicago till July 10th. And I can't remember their designation. Both were "totaled" ie too expensive to repair, but none of the P2000 or P800 ever were totaled no matter how much we abused them.

[QT Luong]

Kirk, I am curious why switching to digital caused you not to need your strobes anymore, or at least much less than before.

[David A. Goldfarb]

I think by "considerably less strobe" he means he needs considerably less power with a small format DSLR, so still using strobes, but without the need for the big packs.

On my copy stand where my digital camera usually lives, I've got two Norman portable LH-2 heads with 19" octagonal softboxes, a 200C battery pack turned all the way down to 50 W-s, and I still need a 2-stop ND filter to keep the aperture around f:8 (yeah, I should gel the strobes rather than using a ND filter on the lens, but this is simpler for the moment).

[Kirk Gittings]

QT,

David is right.

Two reasons why less strobe is needed. First is color. We often times lit a space just to "clean up the color" and bring it closer to a match with daylight film. DC is much better at dealing with ambient light color, because you don't end up filtering so much and dealing with reciprocity and color shifts etc. Second is depth of field. With 4x5 we needed to shoot interiors at a minimum of f22 to get enough DoF (occasionally we could get by with f16). With a FF DSLR f11 is fine ad f8 usable many times. That is like 2 stops less light needed or 4X less light or the difference between using 800ws vs. 2000ws powerpacks.

[Frank Petronio]

Also when you shoot more rapidly using the DSLR, you find that there is a great inconsistency between shots with the older and cheaper strobes. The idea being that with a fashion shooter popping off 20 frames per minute, the lesser strobes will vary in output and color temperature a lot, versus those shiney new $5000 Profotos which are consistent to within 1/10th of a stop and have a consitent color temp over heavy use.

[mvanderaa]

I'm resurrecting this old thread in search for information about (and how to safely operate) the Norman 4000-PS pack. I have searched every which way, and cannot find any information (including manuals) about the 4000-PS. (This is the Norman pack with two connections.) Any experienced Norman users who can tell me how to safely operate, and, can I safely plug the LH4000 head (with two cables) into this pack? A note on the pack says to use with Norman series 900 lampheads only. Thanks in advance.

[Neal Chaves]

Do you have the 4000PS now or is this something you are considering purchasing? If you have it and it is working, you can use The LH4000 head. There are two 2000WS channels and both cables are connected. If you don't have the pack yet, or it is not working, seriously consider two Norman P2000D packs. The PS line, 2000 and 4000 were never reliable and cannot be repaired economically, if at all. The same is true for the P4000D and the 40/40.

Brent Hollister, the foremost Norman repair technician at http://hollyflash.com/ will be glad to consult with you about the best choices in used Norman equipment. Call him M-F 11:00 - 6:00 CA time at 818 892 9020.

With two P2000Ds, you have the full output of the LH4000, plus reliability and redundancy.