huge voigtlander & sohn lens help

[kelzo]

Hey folks,
I recently purchased a Voigtlander & Sohn lens via a live auction at eBay. At first, I thought that when the seller listed it as a 15+ inch lens, I thought he meant focal length and put in my absentee bid. I later realized he was talking actual physical size! I figured I might have a good argument for getting out of the auction because the description could have been seen as a little misleading, but I had to see this thing. Well, it recently arrived and I laughed out loud when I took it out of the carton (lifted with legs, not back...). The thought of me happily (at first) thinking that this monster would fit onto my 12x15 just cracked me up. A 20x24 couldn't even handle it.
Anyhow, I'm wondering if anyone can tell me anything about it. The engraving reads: No. 21506 Voigtlander & Sohn Braunschweig
The dimensions are approximately 15" long with a 7.5" dia on the hood and about 6" dia on the barrel. There are four waterhouse stops and it still has the leather/brass lens cap. It's currently mounted to an ancient 9" lensboard.
I was thinking camera obscura, but if that's the case, what's up with the stops??
Here's a link to the eBay listing:

http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/434-Brass-Petzval-Lens-by-Voigtlaender-Sohn-Wien_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ28272QQihZ017QQitemZ270105366745

If this doesn't work, googling 21506 Voigtlander & Sohn brings it up.
I (and some of the peeps at the art school I go to) would LOVE any help you can give me!! Thanks!
-Kel

[Ole Tjugen]

That's most likely what was later called a Porträt-Objektiv Serie I, in which case it's the biggest one: A 400mm f:3.2.

It was used for "cabinet cards", which are a little smaller than 5x7", using only the central sharp part of the image circle. It was in production until well after WWI, although I assume later ones would have an iris aperture.

[Gene McCluney]

I've got one of these also., but without the extra waterhouse stops. I intend to put it on my Ansco 8x10 Studio camera eventually, when I restore the camera. It is about the only camera I have that is Robust enough to handle the large size of this lens. Aparently this lens is not extremely rare, as I have seen numerous examples on the auction site over the years.

[Jim Galli]

It was made to be used on a big studio type camera. 9X9 was the most common lens board size but the bigger camera (11X14 Century 8) has a 10X10. These giants have to rest on a table top like platform on a rolling adjustable stand.

http://tonopahpictures.0catch.com/AnEquipmentTourDeForce.jpg

Here's a shot done with an identical lens (I think, yours may be even bigger) of my brother in law, John Cole filling an 11X14 sheet of film. Focus for this shot had the bellows at about 44 inches.

http://tonopahpictures.0catch.com/JohnColeS.jpg

[Paul Fitzgerald]

Hi Kel,

It does fit onto an Agfa/Ansco studio portrait 8x10 camera, needs a large Packard shutter or the hat-trick OR you could send it back to the Wollensak factory and have it hot-rodded with a Studio shutter like this one.

That's a 4x5 SpeedGraphic for size comparison, the brown Agfa will be for sale when the blond Ansco is done.

Have fun with it.

[Ernest Purdum]

It sounds like it could be either a Petzval or a Rapid Rectilinear type. You can tell the difference quite easily because the R.R. will give the same reflactions front and rear, while the Petzval is quite asymmetrical.

[kelzo]

Thanks folks! I don't know where you guys cames by this info, but good on ya! I wasn't able to find much at all. Guess I'll have to find some books....

Ole: Figuring out the focal length and actual aperture sizes for this thing may be part of a class project next year in class--thanks for the heads up!! haha

Gene: Good luck with the 8x10 project. The front end of my 12x15 field is too small for this one, but that doesn't mean I've stopped aquiring big cameras, so there is still hope that I'll be able to mount this to something some day...

Jim: You're making me jealous man. That equipment looks great as does the beautiful photo of your brother-in-law. I'll be looking for something along the lines of a Century camera for this lens I suppose. They do come up on eBay from time to time.

Paul: I'll definitely be looking into shutters for this and some other old brass lenses I've recently acquired. Also, judging by some measuring of your photo and me putting my Speed Graphic up next to the lens, it's looking like the one I have here is about 4.5 to 5 inches longer and about 2 inches larger in diameter (at the lens hood), than what you have pictured. Change anything in what people have to think about this thing and what it was used on? I guess not as it seems a pretty simple, though large, lens.

Ernest: I'll have to check into that. This thing is so large, it's actually difficult for me to pick up and look at without fear damaging the glass in some way! Silly, I know.

Thanks again everyone. I can't wait to pass this info on to some of the people who have seen it and wondered what it was used for. I just wish I hadn't paid as much for it as I had, but it is in excellent shape and it also seems to have all of its stops, so that's worth a few bucks I guess.

[kelzo]

Oh, and Paul, let me know when you're finished with that camera, okay?? ;)

[kelzo]

Any advice on how to clean this thing? There is some dust inside that I can get to, but I don't want to scratch this very old and otherwise pristine glass.

[Bill_1856]

You paid $800 for this without knowing any more than the ebay listing? Jesus H Christ!
PS, I have a bridge in NYC that you might be interested in buying.

[Jim Galli]

You paid $800 for this without knowing any more than the ebay listing?

Actually, looking at the photos I think he did just fine. I would pay that for it if it were offered.

[Bill_1856]

Could you use a big bridge out there in the desert, Jim?

[Jim Galli]

Could you use a big bridge out there in the desert, Jim?

Sure! How much?

[Paul Fitzgerald]

Hi Kel,

Mine is 6inch across the hood and only 115mm across the glass SO I guess yours would be for 11x14 or larger at portrait distance. Yours could be retro-fit with a Studio #5 shutter like Wollensak did at their factory BUT it might reduce the max. aperture. Looks nice and works well and can also give you a different mounting point to balance the beast. Have fun finding a #5 Studio shutter in usable shape.

Enjoy it. I'll PM when the other is ready.

[Paul Metcalf]

At the risk of hijacking this thread, the space ship that those little green men use to bring all of your lenses must have some kind of thrust-to-weight capability, Jim. No wonder it's hard to find stuff like that in the northwest, they run out of fuel in the Nevada desert before they can make it this far north! That's one impressive set up of magnum photo gear in "your" corner (I'm assuming that's what's been relagated to you). Where do you sleep?

[Jim Galli]

At the risk of hijacking this thread, the space ship that those little green men use to bring all of your lenses must have some kind of thrust-to-weight capability, Jim. No wonder it's hard to find stuff like that in the northwest, they run out of fuel in the Nevada desert before they can make it this far north! That's one impressive set up of magnum photo gear in "your" corner (I'm assuming that's what's been relagated to you). Where do you sleep?

The green guys crab and complain about the big brass lenses. "What the hell's wrong with a Dagor boss?" When they brought me the big brass Voigtlander they had to leave Floyd in St. Louis and go back and get him a couple of days later. He really crabbed about that. :D

[Jon Wilson]

I don't know if this sheds much light, but according to an old catalog I have, Voightlander & Sohn made a 4th Series lens which was an Extra Rapid Euryscope lens with its largest being size 9. That lens had a lens diameter of 6 1/2 inches and an equivalent focal length of 46 inches. I could not find any other Voightlander lens with a diameter similar to the one you purchased. If you have this Series 9 lens, then according to their catalog, that lens was intended for a Portrait or Group picture of 30x36 inches and landscapes of 40 x 50 inches. (talk about ULF) Also, it sold for a mere $890.00! :eek: That was a LOT of $s over 100 years ago when the lens was made......and people think the new Cooke Convertibles are expensive.

Their 3rd Series Portrait-Euryscop was listed as a number 8A and had a lens diameter of 5 inches and an equivalent focus of 25 inches and was made for a 17x20 plate....it sold for $426.50.

In this Voightlander & Sohn Catalog, I could not find anyother lens, except for the 2 lens I have described which even comes close in size your lens.

I agree with Jim, you have a very nice lens an the price you paid for it is not out of line given its size!

Let us know when you get your new lens in your hands what you calculate its focal length to be.

With all due deference to those who more knowledgeable than myself and a review of this old Voightlander & Sohn catalog, I am betting you lens is an early version of the Extra Rapid Euryscope.....even though it is not marked as such.

[Ole Tjugen]

It looks like a Petzval to me - if it's an Euryskop, it will be an Aplanat/Rapid Rectilinear. You'd better take a close look at the reflections. :)

[Jim Galli]

It looks like a Petzval to me - if it's an Euryskop, it will be an Aplanat/Rapid Rectilinear. You'd better take a close look at the reflections. :)

Me too. Too long to be a Euryscop. Classic brass cannon. Probably 25-27" focal length?

[Uli Mayer]

The lowest numbers given by Hartmut Thiele for Voigtländer lenses are 24.450 - 39.465 for the period 1884 - 1890. So your # 21506 should have been made before 1884. This rules out any Euryskop clearly marked Euryskop Serie II- VIII, because these were introduced not earlier than1887. There is only the non-"Serie" Euryskop that was made before 1884: F7.2 aplanats in seven f.l. ranging from127 to 1070mm.

If your lens hasn't the stop positioned right in the middle between front and rear lens surfaces I'd say it's a Petzval.

[kelzo]

Holy moly, you guys have really planted some seeds here. I get teased sometimes at school about how much time I spend just looking at some of this stuff on eBay, but I'm hooked/fascinated. And so glad the summer is here so I can spend some time really looking into all of this. I also got a couple of other lenses from another lot that this auction house was selling--a 40cm with a dial on the barrel for the iris and a small, unmarked petzval type (w/3 waterhouse stops) that is unfortunately a little foggy at the rear element. May still get me some cool images--moody and such. The 40cm is marked No 2456 Aplanat extra rapid 1:5 No 4 Fer 40cm L. Renaux, Basel and is clean as a whistle. This is the one I got to work with my 12x15 because the guy who sold that told me said it had a 13.75" Hugo Meyer lens on it. Looking at it more closely, I see it's actually marked 17.75". Not as clean as the 40cm though. The lot with these other two lenses only cost me about $200, so Bill can't cast any disparaging remarks about my shopping habits on that one. Can't hurt to have a bunch of these, right? I may not be anywhere near where Jim is, but I'm going to have a lot of fun trying to get to that place! So now I'm looking at 11x14 cameras WITHOUT tapered bellows so that this monster can fit onto something. I guess without a shutter though, I won't be taking portraits.....

Thanks a lot for all of the help people (and the laugh or two)!

[Jim Galli]

Holy moly, you guys have really planted some seeds here. I get teased sometimes at school about how much time I spend just looking at some of this stuff on eBay, but I'm hooked/fascinated. And so glad the summer is here so I can spend some time really looking into all of this. I also got a couple of other lenses from another lot that this auction house was selling--a 40cm with a dial on the barrel for the iris and a small, unmarked petzval type (w/3 waterhouse stops) that is unfortunately a little foggy at the rear element. May still get me some cool images--moody and such. The 40cm is marked No 2456 Aplanat extra rapid 1:5 No 4 Fer 40cm L. Renaux, Basel and is clean as a whistle. This is the one I got to work with my 12x15 because the guy who sold that told me said it had a 13.75" Hugo Meyer lens on it. Looking at it more closely, I see it's actually marked 17.75". Not as clean as the 40cm though. The lot with these other two lenses only cost me about $200, so Bill can't cast any disparaging remarks about my shopping habits on that one. Can't hurt to have a bunch of these, right? I may not be anywhere near where Jim is, but I'm going to have a lot of fun trying to get to that place! So now I'm looking at 11x14 cameras WITHOUT tapered bellows so that this monster can fit onto something. I guess without a shutter though, I won't be taking portraits.....

Thanks a lot for all of the help people (and the laugh or two)!


Kelzo, the shutter is easy. When you find the camera to hold it up and the resulting giant lens board (you already have) you simply mount a 8 1/2" Packard shutter behind the lens and you can do anything you want. Even studio flash is possible.

[kelzo]

Don't know if anyone is still checking in here or not, but when you guys were talking about reflections, I assume you mean what I see in the front and rear elements, right? The reflections in the rear elements are kind of concave and the ones in the front (although difficult to see because of the hood which doesn't seem to come off) are flat. The slot for the stops, while not exactly in the middle, is very close to it. It does sit nearer to the board though. Next I'm going to have to figure out exactly what it is I have to do to figure out the focal length....

[Paul Fitzgerald]

Kel,

"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't know if anyone is still checking in here or not, but when you guys were talking about reflections, I assume you mean what I see in the front and rear elements, right?"

With a petzval if you insert a stop and shine a flashlight into the front you should see 4 reflections, at the rear you would see 8. With a Euryscope you would see 4 front and 4 rear.

"Next I'm going to have to figure out exactly what it is I have to do to figure out the focal length...."

Fast and easy way, hold the lens in front of a white wall and focus a tree or something .5 miles away, then measure from the wall to the waterhouse slot. Not perfect but close enough for most uses.

You did need the workout, right?

[Ole Tjugen]

Correction:

In the front you'll see two strong and one weak reflection, the rear has four about equally strong - in a petzval.

And an Euryskop will have the same two strong + one weak in both ends. Also both ends of a Euryskop will look almost exactly the same.

If you move the lens (or your head, that might be easier with this lens) a little, the reflections will seem to move around in the glass. With a Euryskop, or any other Aplanat / Rectilinear, they will all move in the same direction - but the weak one will move slowest.

[Gene McCluney]

A rough and ready way to figure out approximate focal length is to stick the lens in a doorway looking out to a bright outside scene with some distant objects in it. Take a white piece of paper and move it around behind the lens (in your darkened house) until you focus those distant (near infinity) objects. Measure distance from waterhouse stop hole to paper. In inches, this is the focal length. Rough translation to millameters is 25mm to the inch.

[Paul Fitzgerald]

Ole,

"Correction:

In the front you'll see two strong and one weak reflection, the rear has four about equally strong - in a petzval."

See attached phots, 4 in the front and 8 in the rear. I guess Voigtlnader didn't just build their lenses to match technical drawings made public in their patent application and kept their trade secrets well. :eek:

Nameplate, front bare bulb, rear w/flashlight (a whole galaxy), rear barebulb.

Good morning people.

[Hugo Zhang]

Paul,

That's a beautiful Voigtlander lens. And one with aperture blades! A Voigtlander in such mint condition is indeed rare!

[kelzo]

Okay Paul, I'm going to have to try this with a bare bulb tonight when I can get my husband to hold the lens for me as I shoot pictures to post here. Oops, I said "husband" didn't I? I think I may have blown my cover as someone referred to me as a "he" sometime earlier. Watch out boys, there's woman on the board and she's packin' some pretty big guns! And you can take that anyway you like I suppose! :0

[Paul Fitzgerald]

Hugo,

"That's a beautiful Voigtlander lens. And one with aperture blades! A Voigtlander in such mint condition is indeed rare!"

Thank you, it is pretty, works well too. Spotless glass.:D

Rare? Those are not aperture blades Hugo, that's a Studio shutter, it was sent back to the Wollensak factory in 1926 for a refit when it was 75 years old. I guess someone else liked the look it has, way back then they could have just bought a new Vitax.

I did open it for cleaning and it is a standard Petzval arrangement, doublet in front with 2 singles in rear, so I don't know why the reflection pattern is different.

Kel, a little secret, Mag-Light 2AA flashlight, the head unscrews and becomes an electric candle, a barebulb. GREAT focusing aid stopped down.

[kelzo]

Paul, thanks for the tip. I've been using this tiny snake light led flashlight for focusing with some set-ups I've done recently with my Graflex. The maglight might be a better idea--just take off the head and let it sit there like a candle. Pretty nifty.
That lens you have pictured is one of the cleanest looking old brass lenses I've ever seen! Can I ask where you got it?
Also, I found the front element in my big lens had come a little unscrewed during shipping and went ahead and finished the unscrewing to take a look and blow out some dust. I can tell you that there is a thin piece of glass laminated to a thicker piece up front but don't know offhand what the back element is made up of. Since there seems to be some debate here as to reflections, would looking at the elements separately help in deciding whether this is a petzval type or euryscop? I think the rear is one single piece of glass--could be laminated though. How did you clean yours after you opened it?

[kelzo]

BTW, have any of you seen THIS monster on eBay?? Just blows my mind every time I read the literature on it...

http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/990-Giant-Lens-by-Jamin-1855_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ28221QQihZ017QQitemZ270121426562QQrdZ1

[Ernest Purdum]

Since front and rear Petzval cells differ strongly, you will see very different results looking through one, then the other. If you get the same view through each cell, the lens is not a Petval.

[Paul Fitzgerald]

Kelzo,

"Paul, thanks for the tip. I've been using this tiny snake light led flashlight for focusing with some set-ups I've done recently with my Graflex. The maglight might be a better idea--just take off the head and let it sit there like a candle. Pretty nifty."

The head unscrews and becomes the base/stand for an electric candle. If you use 4, front, back, left and right for interior shots you can focus down to f/64, they're very bright.

"That lens you have pictured is one of the cleanest looking old brass lenses I've ever seen! Can I ask where you got it?"

Ebay, where else? I also picked-up a 14inch Heliar that looks like it was machined this morning, it was dated 7 Sept, 1911 from the bit of newsprint they used as a shim around the aperture assm. They are out there if you look in all the wrong places for the wrong spelling. It also helps to cheat a bit.:D

"How did you clean yours after you opened it?"

Safe answer, dust it off with a soft camel hair brush then spray the Windex on a soft paper towel and wipe clean. Paper towels don't scratch glass, the grit under the towel scratches the glass.

[kelzo]

Ah, so I see I was on the right track when using a soft and otherwise unused make-up brush to dust mine off before putting that element back in. True, 'tis the chick's approach to what you did with the camel hair brush, but it's all the same in the end, right? haha
Now I have to open it back up and give both elements a good and proper cleaning. Thanks for all of your help! I'm sure I'll be all over this board in the coming months looking for more.....