Camera design questions...

[Scott --]

Hello, everyone -

I'm in design phase on the 4x5 wooden field camera I want to build. I've seen a few sites, studied Sandeha's Surveyor (http://www.sandehalynch.com/large_format.htm), and have pondered the Seneca I have.

The Seneca is an old-ish rear focus design, but is completely elegant. Rack and pinion focusing, front rise, fall, and shift, rear tilt and swing. All acomplished with nice joinery in wood, with a minimum of metalwork required. And it's been functioning for 90+ years.

The Surveyor is a more contemporary field camera, with a full compliment of movements. It, too, is elegantly designed.

So, I'm down to a very basic camera design decision: Stick with what I have in front of me as a model, a design that works well, and call it a first pass, or go into uncharted territory (for me, anyway), and work on a Surveyor/Rayment (http://www.raymentkirbycameras.co.uk/workshop/index.htm)-type camera?

Anyone have pros and cons if either/both designs to share with me to sway my thinging one way or t'other?

Thanks,
Scott

[eric mac]

Wow, thats the first time I've seen the Surveyor site. Very nicely done and executed. There are a ton of websites that are out there for ideas on building your own camera. Building a LF camera isn't too difficult, it is the folding part that is hard. :rolleyes:

The real dilemma here is the classic time versus money issue. Unless you are trying to get a special use camera it would be easier to just buy a newer field camera. I am contemplating building an ULF camera at this time as more of a personal challenge. I built the Alletta LF camera with the infamous transluscent bellows more to see if I could do it. I ended up using a graflock back knowing my limitations in precision woodworking. But it works. You could probably get a nice 4x5 folder in the 400 to 600 buck range with a little patience.

Good Luck

Eric

[Nick_3536]

I agree with Eric. When it comes to 4x5 and to a lesser extent with 5x7/8x10 you don't save or gain much building your own.

But if you are intent on building a 4x5 I'd start with something you know. Fine tune the design. Then decide what you don't like about it and build the second one. No matter the style you pick odds are you'll end up not 100% happy with the first one.

The Rayment design looks very similar to my Shen.

[Scott --]

Let me just throw in that material costs are paid for. Mahogany I'm using is left over from a commission I had to make some candlestands over a year ago. Nice, straight-grained, mellow wood, wonderful for making joints in.

Let me also throw in that, until about 18 months ago, I did more than a bit of commssioned furniture making. While I'm by no means the fastest, my time isn't going to be on the order of 6-8 months (unless my attention span tanks and I mothball things unforeseeably). I'm also, for the time being, a stay-at-home dad, so my time is a little less expensive than some of yours. ;)

That said, I'm kind of where Nick's saying right now:

But if you are intent on building a 4x5 I'd start with something you know. Fine tune the design. Then decide what you don't like about it and build the second one. No matter the style you pick odds are you'll end up not 100% happy with the first one.


I just keep waffling, though, over how necessary that front tilt is going to prove. I use it a bit with my Super Speed Graphic, but should be able to rapidly and accurately fake it with the front tilt-less Seneca.

Whatcha think?

[Nick_3536]

If I had a choice I'd take full movements on both ends -)

If I had to choose what movements to give up I don't think it would be front tilt. I think I would give up rear rise/fall first. I'd fake rise/fall and give it up on both standards before giving up front tilt.

[Nick_3536]

Oh if you aren't a super wide angle person I'd lean towards something in the 5x7 range or maybe even full plate. You could then make reducing backs for the smaller formats.

[Ash]

I'm purchasing some bellows and a rotating back from an Orbit, so I'll be in need of the same help eventually. I want to make a super-basic 4x5 I think, then again that criteria has been filled by the speed graphic so I'm not so sure anymore.

Good luck Scott!

[Randy H]

"IF" I were going to embark on a home-brew, methinks I would go for the gusto, and go at least 8X10 or larger. I mean, what the heck, why not? Seems once the LF bug has bitten at 4X5, bigger is just the next phase of the infection. And, that is a project I have been contemplating for quite some time. My "favorites" bar is loaded with DIY sites and field camera mfg sites, and I have a folder full of pics on the computer of dozens of designs for cameras and bellows designs. Unlike Scott, I don't have a garage full of mahogany and equipment, or much woodworking skills, but the idea of a high-end LF or an ULF that "I built" has major attractions. And I like the 8X10 format. I built a 5X7 hand-held P&S with a 240mm f.l. Turned out just merely OK. Won't show it. If it goes out in public, I hide it in a brown paper bag (like a wino :rolleyes: ).

[Scott --]

There's a method to my madness. I have the Super Speed Graphic. It's a wonderful camera, and aside from lenses not covering the movements I want, I haven't had any trouble with it. But I've never really bonded with the camera. I've used enough oldies that were a complete joy to use that I know the feeling I'm not getting from the Super. So, I'm planning on concocting my own 4x5 wooden camera, which (as is apparent by my feel from the Seneca) should be a better fit for me, and selling off the Super. When the 4x5 need's been filled, I'll look at larger formats (a 5x7 with improvements beyond the prototype 4x5, and from then, we'll just have to see).

I flat-out can't afford to shoot 8x10. Yet. I head back to work in the fall. Then, look out... :D

[Randy H]

I flat-out can't afford to shoot 8x10.

Nor can I, really. Fortunately, I got a really good deal on a lot of lith, and aerial films. I have even been shooting some paper, and doing contacts from them. (dumbass even bought a 48 inch by 500 foot roll of VC paper off eBay for 2.50 + shipping) Enough to last a "long" while. When it is gone, I don't know what I'll do. At $2++ per shot, even if the shot doesn't turn out, kinda hurts.

[Colin Graham]

This is a 4x5 I made a couple of years ago. Great experience. I tend to go into creative slumps, so making cameras and film holders can keep me centered somewhat on photography, but not kicking myself in the head. But as long as you're making it, cram it with as many features that you want as possible. The only regrets I have are the shortcuts.

[Randy H]

Colin,
Are the movements on your camera geared, or friction? If geared, what size gear/tooth settings did you use?
And, I like the back design. How is the spring set up? Mind sharing?

[Scott --]

Dude - how much was the instrument grade curly maple?! Stuff's an arm and a leg around here, but - damn! - that's sweeeeet!

As many details as possible on construction, please. Point me to a link if you've got one. That's inspirational.

[Colin Graham]

Hi Randy, all focusing is geared; rise, swing, shift and tilt are friction. The are full movements front and back except rear rise and fall. I did have geared rear shift on it but it got more complicated than it was worth, so I made it friction too. All three gear sets are brass, 20 degree pressure angle, 48 pitch. Thanks for noticing the back- it's the part I'm most proud of- the aluminum caps on the ends of spring frame enclose a torsion spring mechanism that is tapped to the swing arm, works very well. After I made it I noticed the same sort of arrangement on a Canham, so I guess I reinvented the wheel there. Oh well!

Scott, about the maple, it is surprisingly stable, on the order of quartersawn cherry or mahogany. I actually rescued the wood from someone's firewood pile! I've been using it for several years now and it never gets sloppy or sticky.

[Geert]

Folding should not be that difficult.

I advise you to start with a simple design and evolve over the years.
If you really enjoy wood and metalworking, you will always find new ways to improve things.

I started simple, and folded my latest 4x5 looks like this:

http://sheetfilm.be/cams/4x5web/images/1145grs.jpg

I build it especially for travel. The only movements are tilt on back and front and swing on the back.


G

[Stefan Lungu]

Just as a short question : have you all designed these or have you built the cameras based on others designs ?

[Geert]

none of it is original design. All of it is trying to copy the best features from other cameras, fitting in my onw technical possibilities, for my personal use.
As long as the originator is not calles litmann, I'm safe... ;-)

G