"Super Bright" Ground Glass

[Mido Holder]

I have developed a new material and its coating process, "Super Bright", to brighten up the existing ground glass, up to almost 2 f stops. I will email to anyone interested in it actual photos the side by side ground glasses taped together, one S. B. treated and other not, onto which an image is projected. It clearly shows a dramatic difference in the brightness of the two ground glasses. I tried the S.B. coating on four different ground glasses from Graphic, Polaroid MP-3, Linhof, 5x7 B.J. Satin Snow, and Sinar. You will see the images of the all those treated and treated g.g.

p.s: Please send me your e-mail address, I will reply with attached photos.

Shin

[Dave Parker]

I would be very interested in seeing your product, perhaps, there are some thing we can do a partnership or enhancement to each other.

One small thing I am wondering though, are you coating the screens yourself and would a customer have to send their screen to you to have it coated, or are you looking for people to work with on this project?

Thanks for your anticipated reply.

Dave Parker
Satin Snow Ground Glass
gglass@satinsnowglass.com

[steve simmons]

I would also contact Bill Maxwell, Ted Bromwell, Bob Salomon at HP Marketing, and Beattie if they are still in business.

Keep your options open and don't get locked in with anyone until you can weigh all of your opportunities.

steve simmons

[tim atherton]

btw, this is Shin-ichi Kumanomido of the Mido holders - a fantastic (if quirky...!) product - makes 8x10 a hell of a lot more useable

[Eric Biggerstaff]

Can you attach photos to this thread that we can see?

[Dave Parker]

I was just interested in talking to him as my product was mentioned by name in his original post, if I understand, what it is, it will give me a better idea of what possibility exists, it sounds like an enhancement for regular ground glass, Which could be a very good thing..

Most of all, I hope he does well, anything to improve this business is a good thing.

Dave

[Ash]

I'd be very interested in having a brighter ground glass. Dave's GG's are amazing as-is.. and if he can provide me with an extra couple f-stops, and Shin-ichi San gets a few bob in return, I'm game!

[John Voss]

I remember the craze of the '70s for ever 'faster' 35mm lenses...oh the hype we bought into!! :p (as if f1.8 weren't adequate....yeah, right!). And now my favorite lens is an f9 G-Claron. But, it's a helluva lot easier to use because I've got one of Dave's gg's. If that were even brighter somehow, it would be terrific! Make it happen, Shin.

[David A. Goldfarb]

One question I would have about such a process is whether the coating reduces the evenness of illumination of the groundglass, particularly with wide lenses. The usual effect of making a finer, brighter glass is to make the hotspot stronger.

Off topic, but while you're on the phone, do you have any plans to bring back the Mido holders? I'd be very interested in 8x10" and larger Mido holders.

[Pete Roody]

Back when Docter Optics was in business, their US distributor (TCI-Tyrolit Co.) advertised a multi-coated ground glass. The coating was applied to the non-etched surface. They claimed the coating reduced light loss from 4% (uncoated gg) to 0.5%. I wonder how this relates to f-stops of brightness. I didn't purchase the product because I thought the coating would be difficult to protect. But a coated gg would be ideal for a Graflex SLR.

David's point about "evenness of illumination" is important since hot spots are a problem with current Beattie screens and I prefer a regular gg to them.

More details would be appreciated.

Pete

[Ash]

I have the photo's on an email, and they look remarkably brighter. I don't have time to download and attach all of them, by the time I finish work I'm sure Shin will have sorted you all out with more details anyway.

I'll be waiting it out until Dave buys into an agreement with Shin, though. I'm not keen on posting my GG's across the world for the coating, and as above, there is no guarantee yet of longevity or scratch/rub-off protection.

[steve simmons]

I have invited Mr. Mido to bring some samples of his work to the View Camera conference and show them around before he gets into any type of agreement with anyone. If he can do this with any standard gg he may want to have his own business doing this for people or there will be other companies for him to talk to at the conference.

This may be an important contribution to large format and I hope he will be cautious and explore all of his options.

Mr. Mido should also keep the process secret until he applies for a patent to protect himself from the process being done by anyone else. This patent process can take a while but I think, and I am not a patent attorney, that once he applies he has some protection already.

steve simmons

[BrianShaw]

Mr. Mido... as a clarification of protocol... should we contact you directly with interest and/or suggestions... or speak through your business manager. I hesitate to post publically if it might cause a confusing situation.

[Gordon Moat]

Quick update, just spotted this on EBAY this morning:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=003&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=130115150932&rd=1&rd=1

The pictures are impressive, even at the small JPEG sizes. Just for comparison, Badger Graphic Sales (http://www.badgergraphic.com/store/cart.php?m=product_list&c=95) has a Fresnel for near $80, and a Satin Snow near $10 for the Shen Hao 4x5 (plus shipping). So the Mido glass falles between those two prices.

If it really functions better than a Fresnel kit, then I would definitely be interested. Anyone thinking of getting one of these to try it out?

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio (http://www.allgstudio.com)

[Ash]

re ebay ad: that's almost exactly the same as the email I got. Impressive.

[Greg Lockrey]

I'd be curious to see how it compared to "Satin Snow". SS is very good for the money, but the "Super Bright" would have to be twice as good for it's money. :)

[Donald Qualls]

Greg, as I'm reading the original posting, this Super Bright treatment can be applied to any ground glass, including Satin Snow. So, picture Satin Snow with two to three times as much light coming through. If you're routinely using lenses of f/8 or slower, especially in conditions other than noonday sun, the combination of Satin Snow and Super Bright, compared to a plain ground glass, might easily make the difference between being able to focus critically and missing the shot -- or, to put it another way, with your existing ground glass, Super Bright is claimed to make an f/8 lens look like f/4.5 in terms of focusing image brightness (and I don't see much of a hot spot in those images). That's a BIG difference...

[Rider]

Forgive me for being a bit skeptical. How can you create light where there wasn't any to begin with?

[Dave Parker]

I am very interested in the process, but I have questions about how the light transmission is measured. I have contacted Mido, to see if we can talk, but so far very little response, it takes a pretty good system to measure the actual light transmission through glass, using a normal spot or regular meter will not give you true readings of light transmission..

I do hope this is an improvement, I know for a fact the industry would benefit if it is, and I am very interested in talking with Mido to see if perhaps something can be worked in a partnership, it sounds like this is a process that could really benefit the true ground glass industry.

Dave

[Sheldon N]

Okay, from reading the ebay advertisement and looking at the photos - here is the picture that probably most interests everyone.

If I understand correctly, the left half is a Crown/Speed Graphic Ground glass that has been treated with Mr. Mido's process. The right half is a Satin Snow Ground Glass with the top half untreated and the bottom half treated.

What I don't understand is why the Crown/Speed Graphic ground glass would respond much better to the treatment than a Satin Snow ground glass. According to Mr. Mido, the treated Crown glass is 1 stop better than the treated Satin Snow glass, and treating the Satin Snow glass only improves brightness by 2/3 stop.

2/3 stop brightness improvement is nothing to laugh at, but I'm curious as to what the nature of the process is that would lead to the improvement.

Anyone willing to guinea pig their glass and let us know the results?

[Eric James]

I have invited Mr. Mido to bring some samples of his work to the View Camera conference and show them around before he gets into any type of agreement with anyone. If he can do this with any standard gg he may want to have his own business doing this for people or there will be other companies for him to talk to at the conference.

This may be an important contribution to large format and I hope he will be cautious and explore all of his options.

Mr. Mido should also keep the process secret until he applies for a patent to protect himself from the process being done by anyone else. This patent process can take a while but I think, and I am not a patent attorney, that once he applies he has some protection already.

steve simmons

All good points! But be careful at any trade show Mr. Mido. If the substance, rather than the process, is patentable, anyone with access to a mass spectrometer could fly a miniscule sample and beat you to the punch.

[sanking]

What I don't understand is why the Crown/Speed Graphic ground glass would respond much better to the treatment than a Satin Snow ground glass. According to Mr. Mido, the treated Crown glass is 1 stop better than the treated Satin Snow glass, and treating the Satin Snow glass only improves brightness by 2/3 stop.

2/3 stop brightness improvement is nothing to laugh at, but I'm curious as to what the nature of the process is that would lead to the improvement.



First of all, the real issue is not whether or not you can make the ground glass brighter with some type of application, but whether brighter is also better. You can make almost any ground glass brighter by spraying a thin layer of polyurethane varnish on the ground side. However, depending on how finely the glass was ground this might result in a ground glass with a very hot spot in the center.

The improvement in brightness may be a product of how fine the glass was ground in the first place. If you were to spray polyurethane on very coase, medium and very fine ground glass the improvement in brightness would be greatest with the coarse, least with the fine.

Sandy King

[Richard Fenner]

I think the most pertinent question is, will this actually come to anything? People seem to have forgotten the last appearance on this forum by Shin-ichi Kumanomido (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=19771 - second page for his posts) in which we got excited about the prospect of Mido holders being reborn. We indicated a willingness to part with large amounts of cash for the holders, but never heard from him again.

[Bob Salomon]

" However, depending on how finely the glass was ground this might result in a ground glass with a very hot spot in the center."

There are even more important question.

How well will the sharply focused image jump into focus?
How easy will it be to focus with a wide angle or an extreme wide angle lens and be able to see the sharply focused point snap into focus?
If it is very easy to focus with an extreme wide how well does the image snap into focus with long lenses?
Is there an effective range of focal lengths that this process works with or does it work equally well regardless of focal length?

Some grain in the ground glass is necessary to be able to see the image snap to focus. A plain piece of glass is very difficult to focus on even though it is brighter then a ground glass.

Lastly what happens to the image when your eye moves out of the optical axis? Does the image black out then?

You can't increase the volume of light striking the ground glass after passing through the lens. Is this narrowing the viewing angle by concentrating light so the eye must stay on the optical axis?

[Mido Holder]

On a question of the hot spot on a brighter screen: It is true that the even brightness of a g.g. and the hot spot is inversely related, especially with wide angle lenses. but if you look at the Wista flesnel/groung comb. It is a very good "compromise" .It is bright without the annoying hot spot, though it is a a bit stronger than other darker g.g. By comparing the S.B. g.g. with Wista combo side by side each fitted with 75mm Fujinon SW, the S.B. is as good as the Wista without paying $175 from a dealer. The Wista combo has no flesnel at the center (hot spot) about an inch in diameter that makes focusing easier. The Super Bright is an after treatment of the existing g.g. that is to be placed in front or behind the fresnel lens depending on the camera. Without the fresnel lens the S.B. g.g does exhibit a strong hot spot.

Shin

[Richard Fenner]

Shin!

It's very good to hear from you again. To slightly hijack a thread, did you make any progress on the idea of 11x14 Mido holders? You may recall there was considerable interest on this site.

Richard.

[Lightbender]

FWIW, ive used a drop of oil on a gg to brighten it up. By spreading it around the glass, then using a dry cloth to remove any excess, you will be left with a much brighter screen. However as said before, there forms a substantial hotspot if you cover the whole glass. It works better on a screen with a fresnel installed but is still very hard to focus a wide-angle lens. As an alternative, you can wipe the oil on only the center of the screen, but ive has problems keeping the 'center spot' uniformly round, and it distracts from composing the image. Focussing in the center of an oiled glass is wonderful, nice crisp clear images with good contrast.

One niec thing about the oil is that you can wash the glass with dish soap to remove it.

[runmtn2]

I have developed a new material and its coating process, "Super Bright", to brighten up the existing ground glass, up to almost 2 f stops. I will email to anyone interested in it actual photos the side by side ground glasses taped together, one S. B. treated and other not, onto which an image is projected. It clearly shows a dramatic difference in the brightness of the two ground glasses. I tried the S.B. coating on four different ground glasses from Graphic, Polaroid MP-3, Linhof, 5x7 B.J. Satin Snow, and Sinar. You will see the images of the all those treated and treated g.g.

p.s: Please send me your e-mail address, I will reply with attached photos.

Shin

[Scott --]

Did anyone get these pictures? Anyone care to email 'em to me? PM me, puh-leeeze...

[Donald Qualls]

Did anyone get these pictures? Anyone care to email 'em to me? PM me, puh-leeeze...

Scott, there was an attachment up the thread a bit, is that gone now?

[pat krentz]

What kind of oil? Pat

[Spencer Ladd]

Please send info. to sladd@umassd.edu. thanks.

[Nacio Jan Brown]

You can also brighten a ground glass (and its hot spot) by waxing it. "Renaissance Wax" is a good choice. njb

[Andrew O'Neill]

So, whatever happened? Curious to know if anyone ever purchased this product?

[Rider]

Good question Andrew.

[Andrew O'Neill]

I guess nothing came of this product. I'll try Renaissance Wax then. Thanks for the tip, Nacio.

[Policar]

I guess nothing came of this product. I'll try Renaissance Wax then. Thanks for the tip, Nacio.

Be careful, you might get a bad hot spot. A thin layer of micro-crystalline wax (or vaseline, or any petroleum product) will vastly increase light transmission but also reduce the level of diffusion. I coated my old ground glass in a thin layer of melted micro-crystalline wax (not polish) and installed a fresnel behind it and it's ridiculously directional, really bright but hard to use with wide lenses.

My home-built light box also uses micro-crystalline wax sandwiched between glass...and it looks really good but it's a much thicker layer.

[eduardtoader]

I would like to see your product. Please mail to eduardtoader@yahoo.es

thanks

[Solliste13]

yes more details please