Nitrogen Burst Agitation

[cyrus]

Just got done reading the article on nitrogen burst agitation in View Camera.
Question out of mere curiosity: why nitrogen? Why not air from a scuba tank? Is it because nitrogen is inert? Isn't air inert enough? Are development times so long that aeration of the developer is an issue?

[steve simmons]

Nitorgen is used to minimize the oxidation.

steve simmons

[sanking]

Although I have not yet read the article in View Camera on nitrogen burst agitation I have discussed and exchanged many messages with Michael on the subject. There is no question in my mind but that nitrogen burst agitation is an ideal system for minimal type agitaiton procedures, which is capable of giving more apparent sharpness with enhanced adjacency effects, along with highlight compensation.

If nitrrogen burst type systems can be produced and sold at a reasonable price I have no doubt but the system will become very popular.

Hopefully View Camera will follow up on Michael's article with details of future testing, etc. For many of us this method of agitation would appear to be ideal and I really look forward to more information.


Sandy King

[Michael Kadillak]

Steve hit the nail on the head in the fact that Nitrogen is inert and as a result, it avoids unintentional chemical interaction with developers. Secondly, once one acquires a tank (that will always hold its value), the nitrogen is very inexpensive. I am taking in my empty 16 ft3 test tank next week and upgrading to a 65 ft3 one and the difference in the price of the larger volume of nitrogen is only a few dollars more than the smaller volume.

I found the film developing system so easy and "hands off" I decided to put a coffee pot in the darkroom.

Cheers!

[Ron Mowrey]

A hard rubber or stainless tank set for film or paper, along with saran baskets for holding the film or paper is one of the most reliable ways of processing large sheets. Even better are stainless hangers.

A nitrogen sparger goes in the bottom of the tank, and a timer/pressure regulator goes above the tanks.

The sparger moves along with the rack which holds the film or paper, so you only need one of them.

This system was used by Kodak when color processing was released to the public in the 50s. It has been used ever since. I loved using it. We had this installed in every lab at Eastman Kodak where we processed film.

In cylindrical film tanks, which we often used, we had sets of spiral spargers fitted to each type of cylinder.

Ron Mowrey

[cyrus]

As I understand from the article, the agitation is not due to the movement of the bubbles themselves but a quick rise and drop in the volume of liquid in the tank attributable to the burst release of the nitrogen gas. If my understanding is correct, this can be replicated by mechanical means other than use of a gas, thus eliminating the need for a gas pressure regulator etc.

[steve simmons]

The mechanical version is to use hangers and lift and lower the hangers into the tank and developer.

Or, you could do a false floor this is lifted and lowered thereby raisng and lowering the developer. I don't know if designing and constructing this would be any easir.

steve simmons

[evan clarke]

I have a nitrogen burst system built into my sink which is actually a color processor. I guess it's time to try it out. The only drawback is that it has 2 gallon tanks...EC

[Michael Kadillak]

As I understand from the article, the agitation is not due to the movement of the bubbles themselves but a quick rise and drop in the volume of liquid in the tank attributable to the burst release of the nitrogen gas. If my understanding is correct, this can be replicated by mechanical means other than use of a gas, thus eliminating the need for a gas pressure regulator etc.

Yes, as Steve said, you can dip and dunk sheet film hangers in your tanks to accomplish your agitation.

I can say without hesitation that to make the broad comparison that the rise in the fluid level attributed to a gaseous burst agitation with inert nitrogen gas can be accomplished by mechanical means other than dip and dunk is probably a stretch. I would only comment that the darkroom research that Kodak performed to perfect the gaseous burst process was extensive and 100% dependent upon the explicit variables listed in the referenced publication. To deviate from this set of operating criteria is simply foolish because the process works marvelously and since there is no manual contribution in the process beyond putting in and taking out the cage holding the sheet film hangers, it is absolutely consistent. If the costs have you in a pickle, I can only tell you to hunt up these components in the used market because their are bargains everywhere.

In the used market I purchased a gas regulator valve for $15, a tank with plenum for $40 and a solenoid valve and interval timer combination for $50. For another $200 for the large nitrogen tank you are in business for as long as you want to process film. These components are in the basement of used photo stores all over the country collecting dust. That said, one must satisfy their own personal objectives for processing sheet film. My point in writing the article was to at least provide a basic understanding of a proven film processing alternative that has been around for 40 + years and let the reader take it from there.

I can tell you that I have tried just about every processing technique out there in the last ten years and I find that once it is set up, gaseous burst agititation is remarkably easy to use and provides consistent results and negative scratching that is such a risk/possibility with tray processing is minimized to as near zero as possible.

Just another tool to consider adding to your tool box.

Cheers!

[cyrus]

The mechanical version is to use hangers and lift and lower the hangers into the tank and developer.

Or, you could do a false floor this is lifted and lowered thereby raisng and lowering the developer. I don't know if designing and constructing this would be any easir.

steve simmons

Or you could drop a weight in the tank!

I was just curious. Not being familiar with this process (and still not quite sure if its a bit too much for the couple of negs/week that I develop - but then again I'm an ignorant newbie) I had always assumed the movement of the bubbles is what cause the agitation...

[otzi]

Does this gass burst system lend it self to a developer replenisher system, being that the tanks using this system seem to be some what larger capacity than trays etc. If this is so, what dev would the experts recon to be on average most reliable / convenient and age friendly, for B+W negs. I can see a cap on top with the space filled with N would help with anti oxidation problem.

[steve simmons]

Yes, any developer that can be replenished should work in this type of system. You shold make a floating lid to sit on top of the developer when the system is not in use to minimize the oxidation.

steve simmons

[Michael Kadillak]

Does this gass burst system lend it self to a developer replenisher system, being that the tanks using this system seem to be some what larger capacity than trays etc. If this is so, what dev would the experts recon to be on average most reliable / convenient and age friendly, for B+W negs. I can see a cap on top with the space filled with N would help with anti oxidation problem.

On the statement that gaseous burst systems in general use larger capacity tanks, part of this tendency likely comes from the fact that these systems were favored mainly by commercial enterprises and the capability to handle large quantities of film were their life line. Putting this system into the hands of the average large format shooter would be greatly enhanced with reasonably sized custom tanks at affordable prices and that is why this option was evaluated. We are in the final phase of testing some innovative tank designs and hangers from Alistair Inglis that should be available shortly. This would include daylight tanks (including some ULF sizes) and the possibility of double sided acrylic sheet film hangers.

As to the question of replenished developers, I am sure that others will chime in with experience in this area as any should work quite nicely. Another option that I am excited about is to utilize this system with stand, semi stand and/or extreme minimal agitation with dilute developers and I long to retire the long plastic tubes with panoramic ULF when using this developing technique.

Cheers!

[iozone]

We are in the final phase of testing some innovative tank designs and hangers from Alistair Inglis that should be available shortly. This would include daylight tanks (including some ULF sizes) and the possibility of double sided acrylic sheet film hangers

Cheers!

Hi Michael,
I'm leaning toward tank development for my 8x10. I want to have the ability to process multiple sheets with the option of semi stand development. How did these tests turn out?
Thanks,

[Sal Santamaura]

Hi Michael,
I'm leaning toward tank development for my 8x10. I want to have the ability to process multiple sheets with the option of semi stand development. How did these tests turn out?
Thanks,http://www.alistairinglis.com/Gaseous%20Burst%20Development.htm

[iozone]

Thanks for the link Sal, do you know anyone who has experience using the Inglis Gaseous Burst development system with 8x10 negs?

[Sal Santamaura]

Thanks for the link Sal, do you know anyone who has experience using the Inglis Gaseous Burst development system with 8x10 negs?Michael Kadillak uses the system, but I'm not 100% positive he does all sizes (including 8x10) in it. He'll probably chime in here or you can contact him directly.

[Tony Lakin]

Hi
I stripped an old E6 handline a few years ago which included a nitrogen burst facility the tank size was 3 gallon 3f.
recently I have been converting the built in plenum from one of the tanks to fit a 7 litre 7f tank, I am just about ready to go however the only thing missing is the timer which controls the solenoid valve (interval and burst rate) I live in Great Britain so the solenoid valve works on 230 volts AC, I have tried to obtain a suitable timer but not being an engineer I do not know what to ask for, is anyone able to help? this would be much appreciated.

Tony

[ic-racer]

There was an article in View Camera magazine a few years ago about the benefits of nitrogen burst processing.

[iozone]

Hi Tony,

I have both the Kodak pub on gas burst and the View Camera article. If you will P.M. your email to me I'll send them. The View Camera article by Michael Kadillak has info on sources for valves and timers. I'm not sure if this would be helpful for European voltages or not but it would still be a great resource.

[Tony Lakin]

Hi Ed
Thank you for your kind offer, I have sent a PM with my Email address or I think I have I can't see anything in my sent messages in my LF forum profile or in my Outlook sent items or outbox so could you please post a reply letting me know if you haven't received it.

Thanks very much
Regards
Tony

[Dietrich Floeter]

Resurrecting an older topic. I have built a Nitrogen Burst System and the initial results are promising. One issue, here in the winter, in Michigan, in a cool darkroom with the N tank up against an exterior wall is the multi degree drop in developer temp over a 9 minute period. I can move the tank, warm the room to 68F and eliminate the problem but the challenge would be gone.

My solution so far is to create a tempering bath for the Nitrogen. I used 20 feet of 1/4" OD soft copper, coiled 6 in. diameter, submerged in a 3.5 gallon tank with 68F tempered water running from the Hass controller. The N tank is at 61F, ambient air temp at 62F. Over a ten minute period, the developer tank full of water still dropped .5F.

Having written this, I see that I should probably stop screwing around, raise the thermostat to something reasonable, like 68F, and move on. I am surprised that a 20 foot trip through copper tubing didn't warm the gas to 68F. The difference in loss between the first runs without the tempering bath and with is substantial but still not a perfect fix. Ideally I want zero difference in developer temp and apparently the only way to achieve this is to turn up the thermostat. Oh well. Souping film with this system is still preferable over all the other systems I have used successfully for many years and I expect it will be faster and just as or more reliable.

Just another shooters experience.

[dsphotog]

It seems that compressed gas cools as its released, (like dust off cans get frosty cold) maybe try running your coils through hot water.
I'm interested, because I have a Calumet set up to resurect.

[D. Bryant]

Resurrecting an older topic. I have built a Nitrogen Burst System and the initial results are promising. One issue, here in the winter, in Michigan, in a cool darkroom with the N tank up against an exterior wall is the multi degree drop in developer temp over a 9 minute period. I can move the tank, warm the room to 68F and eliminate the problem but the challenge would be gone.

My solution so far is to create a tempering bath for the Nitrogen. I used 20 feet of 1/4" OD soft copper, coiled 6 in. diameter, submerged in a 3.5 gallon tank with 68F tempered water running from the Hass controller. The N tank is at 61F, ambient air temp at 62F. Over a ten minute period, the developer tank full of water still dropped .5F.

Having written this, I see that I should probably stop screwing around, raise the thermostat to something reasonable, like 68F, and move on. I am surprised that a 20 foot trip through copper tubing didn't warm the gas to 68F. The difference in loss between the first runs without the tempering bath and with is substantial but still not a perfect fix. Ideally I want zero difference in developer temp and apparently the only way to achieve this is to turn up the thermostat. Oh well. Souping film with this system is still preferable over all the other systems I have used successfully for many years and I expect it will be faster and just as or more reliable.

Just another shooters experience.

In all the years I used nitrogen burst systems I never faced this problem, but I also worked in a temperature controlled environment. I would say just heat the room and maintain a constant temperature if possible. The nitrogen burst shouldn't affect the developer thermally through gas expansion if it is warm to begin with.

[Lynn Jones]

Ok Folks,

All but two of the nitrogen burst systems didn't work well because they made the assumptions that several of you made, that it was almost still processing with only slight rise and fall and Kodak actually published information stating that all that was needed was a rise and fall of 1/2" to 5/8", of course this was not true and they knew it because they didn't want the photo public to know . The only workable systems was invented by the famed Dr. C.E.K. "Ken" Mees, VP and technical director for Eastman Kodak. It was so successful that Kodak wouldn't permit Ken to publish the technology and results. However, after several years, Ken Mees and his close friend Ken Becker (founder/president of the Original Calumet) created a wonderful gas burst agitation system in the late 40's or early 50's. The gas burst plena (3/8" ID) faced downward and the film reels or hangers bottoms had to be 1 3/4" above the tops of the plena. It worked because the space allowed the gas bubbles to agglormate to their maximum size, giving vigorous sweeping agitation, more than the agitation level for tray processing and only slightly less than spray processing. We knew how large the burst holes based on the square inches of tank size, how often to burst, at what pressure, and how many seconds per burst.

For developers we used dry water pumped nitrogen (N2) for all other solutions we used air burst. For sheet films in the anti marking plastic hangers (PPI) our eveness for a 1.00 flash was +/- .02, for film and plate hangers and SS 120 roll hangers it was +/- .03, for 35mm SS reels it was +/- .03 to +/- .04 (these were in density units on a 1.00 flash). For general information, major film manufacturers stated that an acceptible level of density variation for pro labs was +/- .20 (ten times that of our performance and +/- 2/3rds of an f stop). I created a gas burst processor for sensitometric processors using +/- 1/10th of a degree F solution temperature, and with a 1.00 flash, their variation would be less the .01, but that was 3 times more expensive.

In 1964, I re-designed the gas burst system based on my knowledge of Ken Mees research (I knew him in 1959 and 1960 just before his death) because films had really changed a great deal. Graphic arts companies asked me to design systems for their extremely large processors for films up to about 40 or more inches, the results were still +/- .02 to .03. Incidentally, I actually designed an air burst system to clean up lakes and we tested of these successfully in a size of about 1/4th of an acre, it worked and was remarkably fast in so doing. After the successful test it was never used again, it was easier to stop contaminating certain lakes.

Lynn

[D. Bryant]

Ok Folks,


In 1964, I re-designed the gas burst system based on my knowledge of Ken Mees research (I knew him in 1959 and 1960 just before his death) because films had really changed a great deal.

Lynn

We operated Pako dip & dunk processors for years with nitrogen burst and air burst agitation following Pako and EK reccomendtions and never had any quality issues.

This included roll film and sheet film; B&W and C-22 color lines, though the sheet film sizes stopped at 8x10.

This was during the 1970s so perhaps the documentation and equipment from the manufacturers had become modernized so to speak.

[Christopher Nisperos]

Wow. Respect ...