Shen Hao HZX 4X5-IIA or Ebony RW45E as first 4x5?

[parasko]

Hi all,

I'm thinking of purchasing either the Ebony RW45E or the Shen Hao HZX 4X5-IIA as my first 4x5 (for landscape photography).

The Ebony costs $1950 and the Shen Hao $700. Both cameras seem to have similar features: bellows extensions, variety of movements, weight, dimensions etc.

What extras does the Ebony provide for the additional cost? Better build? Ease of use? Is the Ebony worth the $1250 extra or is this money better invested towards a second lens perhaps?

Secondly, does anyone know if either of these cameras can be used with a 65mm lens using all movements with the standard bellows?

Badger Graphics is offering a Shen Hao intro kit w/ Rodenstock APO-Sironar-N 150mm/5.6. Is this a quality lens and is this lens range popular as a first lens? I was thinking a bit longer, maybe a 210-240mm. Any recommendations for a lens in this range?

One final newbie question...do you always have to buy lens boards separately or do they come with the lens?

Apologies for so many questions. :)

[Dave_B]

Either camera will work well for you. I have both an Ebony (the SV45TE) and an 8x10 Shen Hao. Both are fine cameras. You will be happy with either. My advice is to start inexpensively and take a lot of pictures. After a few hundred shots and some time spent reading here on this forum, you will have a lot better idea of what YOU what to do with a camera. We all have different tastes and what I want for a B&W walk-around camera in NYC may not be what you want for color studio portraits.
Questions unique to you that will determine the right answers are things like: will you develop your own film, will you shoot color or B&W, do you ever think you will move up to a larger format, do you care about the size and weight of your rig, how much can you afford to spend, what will you photograph, etc.
Any modern lens from a major vendor such as Schneider, Rodenstock, Fuji or Nikon will be more than fine for anything you wish to take a picture of. The slight differences among them are the subject of endless discussions here but the real answer is that they are all essentially perfect objects in terms of their optical performance while taking a picture.
The 150mm length is a pretty standard lens to start with for 4x5. It is the equivalent of a 50mm lens for a 35mm camera-a good place to start with because it roughly approximates what the human eye sees in terms of a field of view. After you learn the ropes with that lens, you can move wider or longer, depending on what shots you wanted to take but couldn't with the one lens you had.
The boards are camera specific. There are roughly half a dozen standard and often used types with a larger number of less popular ones. Boards these days come with holes drilled for copal 0,1 or 3 sized shutters. You need to get a board designed for the camera you have with a hole sized for the lens you have. For example, the Ebony will use a Linhof board and your 150 mm lens will probably have a copal 1 shutter and so that board will have that sized hole in it.
A good place to start learning all about this stuff is a book by Steve Simmons. It is called something like The View Camera. It is a fine place to start. After you have read it, you will have many fewer questions. Also, this forum has an extensive section of FAQ's and background technical articles. These are well worth reading before you spend a lot of money. Finally, don't be afraid to ask questions here. This forum has a tradition of being newbie-friendly.
Good luck,
Dave B.

[Scott Davis]

I can't say for the Ebony, because I know they have different models with specialized bellows, but I know the Shen Hao will not let you focus a 65mm to infinity with any movements, using a flat lensboard, on the standard bellows. Once you get below 75mm, you probably won't use many movements at all anyway, other than the occasional bit of rise, and the occasional bit of swing. If you have a recessed board, you may be able to get very limited movements. The best thing is to get the bag bellows. On the Shen Hao, the bag bellows is a very inexpensive option, and very easy to install/remove.

[Walter Calahan]

I'd spend more money on the glass then the camera, but that said, I have no experience with either of these cameras.

[Jack Flesher]

I think Dave's advice is good -- buy the cheaper camera and spend on good used glass. If you like 4x5 and using the view camera, a little experience using it will tell you what you features you want in a more permanent camera and you won't need to re-buy glass. If you don't like 4x5, then the good glass will sell for what you paid for it. Either way, the Shen will be relatively easy to sell for probably only $100 - $150 less than you paid for it; a relatively cheap long-term rental.

Cheers,

[Brian Ellis]

I had a brief fling with a Shen Hao (seller misrepresented it which was the only reason why the fling was brief) and I've owned an Ebony SVTe and an Ebony SVTi. There were only three things I liked better about the Ebonys than the Shen Hao, the longer bellows (by far the most important to me), the little mirror gizmo on top (I'm not sure that's on the RW), and the fact that axis tilt was easier to use. If my Ebonys had the universal bellows (which I'm not sure the RW has) I would add that to the list. Obviously when talking about whether a price differential is "worth it" you get a totally personal opinion but for me, while the Ebonys were very fine cameras they were way overpriced compared to very similar cameras that cost much less than the two I owned.

I've owned about 20 LF lenses, only two of which were bought new. I'd pass on the Badger package, get the camera then buy a used lens and save about 20% or so on the lens, especially since you seem inclined to a somewhat longer lens anyhow.

Lens boards don't usually come with new lenses, sometimes they do with used lenses.

[Eric James]

The E version of the RW45 (the RW45E) does come with the universal bellows and levels on front and back standards. 65mm lenses can be focused at infinity, in fact Helen Bach has started a thread here detailing her experience with the RW45E and the Rodenstock 55mm APO - Grandagon.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=18255

[Petr Hartvich]

Yes, you can focus 65mm lens with flat lensboard to infinity on standard bellows. I made last shot with this combo yesterday. For "extreme" movements is unpractical to have 65mm lens with flat lensboard because work with movements is little bit tight because of bellows but smaller image circle of wide lenses doesn't allow you much movements. Work with recessed lensboard is much comfortable if you use plenty of movements. Personally I use 65mm lens with flat lensboard, for landscape photography this works fine (I used to use this lens with recessed lensboard but I found it unecessary). Hope this helps:)

[Ted Harris]

Petr, which camera are you referring to?

Brian, yes you can get the RW with the universal bellows that is the way the oneI used for a while was configured.

parasko, why would you gt the RWE and pay extra for the additional weight of the Ebony wood as opposed to the mahogany version? IMO the Ebony is a much solider, more precise camera than the Shen Hao but both get the job done.

I never used a 65mm lens on either camera but I did use a 75mm extensively with a flat board and the universal bellows on the RW and it was a pain. A pain to gt the camera in the "wide lens mode" and movements were limited by bellows compression ... far from an impossible combination but sure took longer and was not as usable as on some other field cameras. Use of a recessed board will solve the problem.

[Former Member 8144]

there is also the newer SHEN HAO TFC45 which is more like the ebony sw45...that may be a good choice also.

marc

[walter23]

You can probably resell the shen hao on here for $500 or $550 if you ever decide it's inadequate. I really like mine and I can't imagine dumping the extra money for an ebony for such a simple device as a large format camera. It's a wooden / cloth box, for christ's sake!

You can get lenses cheaper on ebay if you're willing to wait for a bargain. There's no really good reason to buy a new lens unless you can't find what you're looking for - 150mm lenses are cheap and very common. You could probably find that rodenstock or a caltar-II N 150 f/5.6 (the exact same lens made by rodenstock but branded for calumet photo) on ebay for a couple of hundred bucks.

On the other hand, if you don't care about wasting your money, buying the kit gives you everything in one shot without the hassle of waiting for auctions to end, assessing seller honesty, etc. Your call.

You won't get full movements out of a 65mm lens with the Shen Hao standard bellows. You don't even get full movements with a 90mm (a 150 should be fine though). With a 90 I can do a fair amount of tilt (pretty much enough to run out of image circle), but rise/fall is pretty constrained (maybe a centimeter at most). The bag bellows is cheap though and not too bad to change into in the field (though I do tend to avoid doing so because it is one extra hassle and not necessary for most things). Keep in mind that the image circle of a wide angle lens can be pretty small and so you won't necessarily have much movement available to you anyway. My hunch is that you could probably manage just enough forward tilt with the standard bellows for a typical landscape shot but I've never actually used a lens that wide.

You'll usually have to buy a lens board separately, but shen hao (technika-style) lens boards are about $30 at badger which isn't too bad. As mentioned, the lens board for your camera has to have the appropriate hole for your lens / shutter, so it's not really a good idea to stock up on lens boards - just buy them to fit your lenses as you acquire them.


Hi all,

I'm thinking of purchasing either the Ebony RW45E or the Shen Hao HZX 4X5-IIA as my first 4x5 (for landscape photography).

The Ebony costs $1950 and the Shen Hao $700. Both cameras seem to have similar features: bellows extensions, variety of movements, weight, dimensions etc.

What extras does the Ebony provide for the additional cost? Better build? Ease of use? Is the Ebony worth the $1250 extra or is this money better invested towards a second lens perhaps?

Secondly, does anyone know if either of these cameras can be used with a 65mm lens using all movements with the standard bellows?

Badger Graphics is offering a Shen Hao intro kit w/ Rodenstock APO-Sironar-N 150mm/5.6. Is this a quality lens and is this lens range popular as a first lens? I was thinking a bit longer, maybe a 210-240mm. Any recommendations for a lens in this range?

One final newbie question...do you always have to buy lens boards separately or do they come with the lens?

Apologies for so many questions. :)

[Doug Dolde]

Get the Ebony..they smell nice. Then order a new groundglass/fresnel from Bill Maxwell.

And get a Schnieder Super Symmar XL 110mm lens as your first one.

[Frank Petronio]

I wouldn't rush to get a 65mm early on, that is very extreme lens for 4x5 and you'll want to get a firm grip on technique and focusing before using it.

Another vote for economy, get a Shen and a 135-150-180 Rodenstock Sironar or Schneider Symmar, 10 holders, a good meter and a really good tripod/head combo. Save the left over cash for film and fun. Get a Polaroid 545 and a couple boxes of film and accelerate your learning curve.

Or better yet get a metal Toyo A or Wista SP or something that won't fall apart like some wobbly wooden toy ;)

[parasko]

Thanks all for your advice. Very comprehensive!

I have decided to go with the Shen Hao. I will probably also purchase a 150mm lens to start with, so the kit at Badger Graphics does look promising.

A few more queries re: the Shen Hao:
1. Is anybody using Shen Hao accessories for focusing, such as viewfinders, or is the dark cloth the most accurate method?
2. The additional purchase of the fresnel gg option is a must for this camera. True?
3. I have read elsewhere that the rear standard of the camera does not lock down tight and a thicker washer is required to tighten the locking mechanism. Has this been fixed on more recent versions of the camera or is this something Badger Graphics could fix for me prior to shipping?

Thanks again for your previous responses. :)

[MJSfoto1956]

Thanks all for your advice. Very comprehensive!

I have decided to go with the Shen Hao. I will probably also purchase a 150mm lens to start with, so the kit at Badger Graphics does look promising.

A few more queries re: the Shen Hao:
1. Is anybody using Shen Hao accessories for focusing, such as viewfinders, or is the dark cloth the most accurate method?
2. The additional purchase of the fresnel gg option is a must for this camera. True?
3. I have read elsewhere that the rear standard of the camera does not lock down tight and a thicker washer is required to tighten the locking mechanism. Has this been fixed on more recent versions of the camera or is this something Badger Graphics could fix for me prior to shipping?

Thanks again for your previous responses. :)

In our review of the camera, we found the stock groundglass to be more than adequate for normal lenses such as your proposed 150mm.

Most people use dark cloths, but the focusing tubes (covered in a previous issue) are becoming very popular. I now carry a focusing tube wherever I take my Linhof.

While the rear standard locking mechanism of the Shen-Hao was not as precise as the other movements on the camera, we had no trouble locking it down with the stock mechanism. I saw no need for any additional washer.

In short, go with the camera "as is", and get yerself a focusing cloth or focusing tube and you should be good to go.

Good luck!

[steve simmons]

The Ebony cameras are among the best made cameras available. Whether they are worth the extra money is something only you can decide.

Before buying a camera may I suggest reading

Getting Started in Large Format that is available in the Free Articles section of the View Camera web site

www.viewcamera.com

There are several other articles there as well that may be very helpful

and here is some additional reading

Using the View Camera by Jim Stone
Large Format Nature Photography by Jack Dykinga
Using the View Camera that i wrote.

Check your local library

If it is possible I would suggest coming to the View Camera conference in Louisville June 29-July 1. The trade show is free to anyone who walks in and you will be able to see and fondle these cameras before you have to make any decision about buying anything. The Conference is at the Brown Hotel in Louisville. A Conference program is on the view camera web site - the link is at the bottom of the home page.

I do recommend one of the screen brighteners as they will make the image much easier to see on the gg regardless of the lens or lighting conditions. Bromwell makes one as does Linhof. We have reviewed both and found them to be worth the expense. We have tried repeatedly to review the brightener called Satin Snow but have never been able to get one despite several requests. It is my understanding that they are back ordered much of the time.

As for lens selection that becomes a very personal matter. I gave up on 'normal' lenses many years ago - they weren't slightly wide or slightly long. I've done the 90-125-180-240 setup and like it very much.

And one last comment. You will want a seperate lensboard for each lens. Not all shutters are the same size so lensboards are not necessarily interchangeable and it is a PITA to have to take lenses in and out of a lensboard in the field.

steve simmons, publisher
View Camera magazine
serving the large format community since 1988

[Gordon Moat]

I am using a focusing tube on my Shen-Hao. To test a simple fresnel, I added a page viewer magnifier from a Barnes & Noble bookstore; surprisingly good and a low cost way to see if you want to buy a better fresnel; apparantly the Ebony fresnel fits into the Shen-Hao (another option).

The rear standard locking lever can be screwed into one of two holes on that part. The way most seem to come from the factory requires pushing foreward to lock, which sometimes makes it tough to unlock. What I did with mine is to put the lever into the other hole, meaning that I pull the lever to lock the rear standard. When I want to unlock the rear standard, I push the lever. Seems to work very well, though I sometimes wish the lever was just a little longer.

I bought mine from Badger just over a year ago. When you get it, run it through all the movements. If you find any area or movement sticking a bit, you can then apply some lube to some areas. Furniture wax seems to work well for wood parts, and bicycle cable lube (white looking grease) works well on metal parts. I actually consider lube and cleaning to be an annual process.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio (http://www.allgstudio.com)

[Petr Hartvich]

Ted, I mean Shen Hao. 65mm lens with flat lensboard is possible to focus to infinity with standard bellows.
Focusing 65mm lens with fresnel is much easier, for normal or long lenses there is no need to attach fresnel to ground glass. I cut off mine simply from fresnel lens purchased here: http://www.3dlens.com/fresnellens.htm, Item: #406, Page Magnifier, 180mm x 260mm (7"x10"). Cheap and works very well.
I had to put to the rear standard locking lever one washer to make it tight enough.

[Turner Reich]

What is a focusing tube and where are they available? It sound very interesting, do they work with most view cameras?
tr

[Frank Petronio]

I use a 12-inch length of 6-inch diameter matter black-painted PVC pipe. If you drill two holes on the end and attach a strap, you can hang it around your neck like a big loupe. And that looks pretty cool, especially if you decorate it with some Harley biker or American eagle decals.

[Brian Vuillemenot]

I can use a 58mm with no problem with the regular lensboard on my Shen-Hao 4X5. I don't use extensive movements, but I can get plenty of front base tilt for general landscape applications.

If you want a camera to impress your photo buddies, get the Ebony. If you want a camera to make images with, get the Shen-Hao.

[Brian Ellis]

When I bought my Shen Hao I was told that there was a model I and a model II. The main difference between the two, maybe the only difference, was a change in the back to make it lock down better. Whether that completely fixed whatever the problem was before I don't know but at least they apparently tried.

[Eric James]

If you want a camera to impress your photo buddies, get the Ebony. If you want a camera to make images with, get the Shen-Hao.

It is a bit a of a museum piece, but the Ebony can be used to take photos too:)

Turner, I'm not sure what a focusing tube is but the Quietworks Black Jacket is a modified tube and a very nice way to make the GG dark:

http://www.quietworks.com/FRAMES_FILES/WELCOME_BJ_FOCUSINGCLOTH.html

Also, check out the 3rd issue of MAGNAchrom for more on focusing tubes.

[MJSfoto1956]

What is a focusing tube and where are they available? It sound very interesting, do they work with most view cameras?

We reviewed four of them in the 3rd issue of MAGNAchrom -- free to download. Just register. Honestly, I'm surprised and saddened that nobody bothered to mention it. :(

[Turner Reich]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I use a 12-inch length of 6-inch diameter matter black-painted PVC pipe. If you drill two holes on the end and attach a strap, you can hang it around your neck like a big loupe. And that looks pretty cool, especially if you decorate it with some Harley biker or American eagle decals.
__________________

Frank, a focusing tube not a shooting tube! Nice try.

[Rakesh Malik]

If you want a camera to impress your photo buddies, get the Ebony. If you want a camera to make images with, get the Shen-Hao.


Funny thing... I make images with my Ebony camera, in spite of its good looks.