Update from J&C

[davidb]

Here is the latest:

J&C Update (http://www.jandcphoto.com/JandC/update.htm)

[tim atherton]

sadly no surprise

[Turner Reich]

When a good thing goes bad everybody suffers, a person can't just do business and it knocks the guts out of a guy who tries. I give John the highest praise for his valiant effort to provide the supplies necessary for the continuance of the craft. Now that he has withdrawn I wish the people who were more than happy to sue will get theirs. I will wonder for years what happened to John and why the customers couldn't have helped. One Paypal account for a defense fund could have secured JandC's existence for years to come. With no communication no one could help and now it's time to put it behind and move on.

[David A. Goldfarb]

This is unfortunate, but fotoimpex.de is still in business. I had no problem purchasing from them before J&C opened up, and I'll continue to do so. I used to batch orders with a couple of local friends who also had an interest in East European films to save on shipping, and I never got hit with customs charges in the US. Mirko has good English and you can inquire about anything that isn't in the catalogue, like an unusual sheet film size, and he can usually arrange to get it, just as J&C used to.

[Turner Reich]

Now that's good to know, thanks for the info David.

[Glenn Thoreson]

That is very, very sad.:(

[David R Munson]

WTF? Seriously...

[Jason Greenberg Motamedi]

Very sad.

Dare I ask about the lawsuits?

[erie patsellis]

As a (now former) small business owner, I bought as much as I could afford from John, in principle if nothing else, this bodes very badly for the small guys...



erie

[Jim Galli]

This is a sad blow to all things analog. I'm sorry to hear of it. I enjoyed every dealing with J&C and always felt I was supporting the kind of mom and pop grass roots organization that film will ultimately become.

[Turner Reich]

It blows a hole in everything from now on, who to trust and how much trust. It's interesting that someone brought it up on APUG but the thread closed so no further discussion was possible. It was a communications problem from the start with JandC. The corp. big shots and government heads committed this error and the ending is always the same. If someone person has the guts to talk and communicate then half the problems could be resolved.

But the way business in America works, were a judge can sue a dry cleaner for millions over a pair of pants that were late, then anything bad can happen. No wonder the US is marching back-wards in the business world.

I think John and JandC should have taken the company "off shore" before the problems started, it works for the big shot companies.

[erie patsellis]

I could see a "private club" or Co-Op type business model working down the road.


erie

[j.e.simmons]

The trouble with the APUG thread was that some folks began to speculate that another supplier was behind the problem. I say speculated because the posters offered no evidence that the other supplier had anything to do with John's situation.

I'm very sad to see JandC go. Jobs and traveling took me away from photography for years, and when I decided to come back, one local camera store had closed its doors and the other was getting out of the traditional business. JandC got me back into photography. I was always very happy with their products and service.
juan

[Aggie]

I had some of John's suppliers asking me what was going. This as late as mid February. I could give no answers, since I too was shut out along with everyone else. If you don't communicate with your suppliers, they are going to get upset. Especially if they see updates being done on his web site during that time. In his business he needed to communicate to the suppliers. After 5 to 6 months of no word, and repeated attempts at contact, you move on to others. It's sad the demise of another vendor, but business is business.

[tim atherton]

The trouble with the APUG thread was that some folks began to speculate that another supplier was behind the problem. I say speculated because the posters offered no evidence that the other supplier had anything to do with John's situation.


typical of apug censorship - don't actually allow any discussion. unfortunately, for all their good initial customer service, J&C just chose not to communicate, which was a fatal business decision. It was clear from he get go that once they closed the doors they weren't going to re-open and they just strung all sorts of people along in the process

[bob carnie]

I am not sure of Johns situation and I hope he is doing well.
In my own case , We came close to closing the doors over the last 17 years on a couple of occasions.
Twice because of my working partners and cancer, and once due to the rolling ball of Digital and our ability/inability to refinance in a world where small companies are the lowest of low customers with Banks and Govt Agenceys.
I wish John all the best and would not be suprised if his company resurfaces over the next couple of years.
It is very hard to express ones problems to clients and maybe his lack of communication lies here.
I remember when Ilford had its problems and we all were shitting our pants because our livelyhood was threatened with their potential demise. I don't remember a lot of communication during that period of time.


typical of apug censorship - don't actually allow any discussion. unfortunately, for all their good initial customer service, J&C just chose not to communicate, which was a fatal business decision. It was clear from he get go that once they closed the doors they weren't going to re-open and they just strung all sorts of people along in the process

[Brian K]

What is the actual back story? Why was Jand C having legal problems?

[Scott Davis]

typical of apug censorship - don't actually allow any discussion. unfortunately, for all their good initial customer service, J&C just chose not to communicate, which was a fatal business decision. It was clear from he get go that once they closed the doors they weren't going to re-open and they just strung all sorts of people along in the process

Tim- there was no "APUG Censorship" going on. Folks were starting to speculate rampantly in the worst gossip fashion, and so the thread was closed. Since the principals of the issue were not divulging more than minimal detail, there was no point in letting the thread go on, as it would have produced lots of sound and fury signifying nothing.

[sanking]

typical of apug censorship - don't actually allow any discussion. unfortunately, for all their good initial customer service, J&C just chose not to communicate, which was a fatal business decision. It was clear from he get go that once they closed the doors they weren't going to re-open and they just strung all sorts of people along in the process

I don't believe it is at all true that J&C had no intention to re-open. In fact, from my conversations with him from a year or so ago I got the impression that John had some very ambitious plans to expand the business.

Many people seem very surprised that J&C shut down all communication at a certain point. I am going to suggest that sometimes people have personal issues that far outweigh business concerns, and that such matters are by their very nature highly private.

Sandy King

[Brian Ellis]

Tim- there was no "APUG Censorship" going on. Folks were starting to speculate rampantly in the worst gossip fashion, and so the thread was closed. Since the principals of the issue were not divulging more than minimal detail, there was no point in letting the thread go on, as it would have produced lots of sound and fury signifying nothing.

That's actually a pretty good informal definition of censorship. Somebody had to decide what was "the worst gossip fashion," what was "sound and fury" and what wasn't, and what was significant and what wasn't. People who make those decisions and then publish or not on the basis of them are called "censors."

[Doug Howk]

Over on APUG, I wouldn't call the thread "speculative" since the posters were just coming to a logical conclusion based on one poster's statement. When he removed his comment about boycotting a certain West-Coast supplier (with the logical implication that the supplier was at fault for J&C demise), then the thread became somewhat disoriented. I, for one, will pursue David Goldfarb's group purchase suggestion.

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

This is indeed a very sad turn of events. If it wasn't for John and J&C, I would not have a stash of 7x17 TMAX 400 in my freezer. The comprehensive one-stop shopping for ULF films and photographic papers offered by J&C was unique. It may have been possible to get most of the products, or their equivalents elsewhere, but no other retailer offered so much variety under one roof.

To lose such a major supplier hurts us all. The world of ULF is a small niche market and we all need to work together to make sure it remains vibrant. Everytime we lose one photographer, one supplier or one manuacturer it weakens our ranks. I'm not into gloom and doom predictions, but with Forte and now J&C exiting the continued availablity of ULF and other non-standard sheet film sizes looks much less promising today than it did a year ago. Hopefully, others will step in to fill the voids, but it would have been so much easier to maintain the status quo than to start over. At least it looks like John will continue to work with Kodak to supply special runs of ULF TMAX 400. If he does, he will have both my support and my gratitude.

I won't speculate on any threats of frivilous lawsuits as I have no first hand knowledge or involvement. However, I will say that if such threats were made, it was a very short-sighted move on someone's part. It's sad that we live in a time when competition by litigation seems to be so pervasive. Whatever happened to competing by offering better products, better prices and better service? Unfortunately, these days it often comes down to who has the better lawyers and the deeper pockets. So much for a free market economy. In the end, we all need to work together for the mutual benefit of the LF and ULF community. Anything that drives one supplier or one manufacturer out of business impacts us all, even if only indirectly. It weakens the market and makes it more likely those sitting on the fence will decide now's not the best time to nter the world of ULF photography. Someone else may benefit short term by the demise of J&C by getting a bigger piece of the ULF pie, but the pie just got a little bit smaller for all of us.

Kerry

[sanking]

Over on APUG, I wouldn't call the thread "speculative" since the posters were just coming to a logical conclusion based on one poster's statement. When he removed his comment about boycotting a certain West-Coast supplier (with the logical implication that the supplier was at fault for J&C demise), then the thread became somewhat disoriented. I, for one, will pursue David Goldfarb's group purchase suggestion.


I agree, and the poster who made the comment about boycotting a certain west coat supplier probably had some inside knowledge. However, I am of the opinion that J&C's decision to withdraw from this market is quite complicated and does not result merely from legal problems with one west coat supplier.

Sandy King

[Louie Powell]

I bought film from J&C, and appreciated their pricing, turnaround, and selection of products. And I am sad that I will have to find another film supplier.

But the fact remains that when you are running a business, you have obligations to both your customers and your suppliers. You owe it to your customers to be there when they need your products. And your suppliers have the right to expect that you will be a reliable channel to the ultimate consumers of your product. It's OK for a small business to close occasionally for a vacation, but the owners need to make it very clear that they will be back, and when.

In the city where I lived for many years there was a tradition that businesses in the downtown district would close on Saturday's during the summer months. In the distant past, that was fine, and consumers went out of their way to find some other time during the week to do their shopping.. But when the suburban shopping malls came along, consumers quickly learned that if they needed to do some shopping on Saturday, they had to go to the mall. And guess what - they didn't shop downtown any longer. And the downtown stores are now all closed.

To close unexpectedly, with no advance warning, and with a vague promise to reopen at some unspecified point in the future, means that J&C was run more like a hobby than a business. That's too bad for both its customers and suppliers, but the outcome was predictable.

[tim atherton]

I bought film from J&C, and appreciated their pricing, turnaround, and selection of products. And I am sad that I will have to find another film supplier.

But the fact remains that when you are running a business, you have obligations to both your customers and your suppliers. You owe it to your customers to be there when they need your products. And your suppliers have the right to expect that you will be a reliable channel to the ultimate consumers of your product. It's OK for a small business to close occasionally for a vacation, but the owners need to make it very clear that they will be back, and when...

To close unexpectedly, with no advance warning, and with a vague promise to reopen at some unspecified point in the future, means that J&C was run more like a hobby than a business. That's too bad for both its customers and suppliers, but the outcome was predictable.

very much so. unfortunately it was somewhat symptomatic of things even before the move. while i appreciated their wide selection of mittel-europa films and papers (for which they were essentially the only show in town) and ordered from them, i gave up on ordering ilford or kodak film. each time the film failed to arrive after three or four weeks. after a couple of emails, discovered it had been out of stock and was "on order" - but no communication, nothing. a couple of times a whole order of other stuff was being held up like this. made it hard to plan work and rely on film supplies. in the end i stopped ordering mainstream film from them despite the good price.

[jnantz]

from what i remember, j&c was getting ready to move to vegas and start a coating their own films and paper

it is too bad that the cards fell the way they did ... :(

-john

[davidb]

Any suggestion of boycotting Freestyle is ridiculous. Anyone boycotting the oil industry?

[Ted Harris]

In hopes of putting this speculation to bed and let this thread end quietly ... Sandy is absolutely correct that it is a very complicated situation and there is a lot more to it than has been posted on their website. As many know John is/was quite ill and he has chosen to keep his private affairs just that, private. Further, the business situation is quite complex. AFAIK, and I think I have most of the facts in hand from the principals in confidence, no one is or was out to get J&C and force them out of business. In fact, quite to the contrary, their major European suppliers went way out on a limb for J&C for many months.

I think John is the only one who can tell the whole story and I don't believe he is interested in doing so. I don't think we do him a service by this continued speculation. In my case I will wish him God speed and good luck and hope thatht he will be back in business in the future. Until that time I will let it rest.

[Bobf]

There is another, open, thread on the subject current on APUG. Unlike the thread that was closed, no one has yet slandered another supplier, or otherwise attempted to organize a boycott, putting APUG's owner in a potentially precarious legal position...

I don't believe it is going to come to an any more logical conclusion than this thread however...

Bob.

[Ted Stoddard]

I for one hate the fact that America has become a "I will SUE" country... If we could get enough people together to purchase the JandC company it will not solve the problems but maybe help with the LF & ULF photography suppliers and help us as supporters to keep them alive and well... I for one will miss J&C and hope that it may come back sooner then never.... If it came down to it and once my business opens up maybe I can supply some if not all the items they supplied to me and there customers....

LONG LIVE J&C

[alec4444]

I've bought film & such from J&C and will miss them too. Despite less-than-stellar communication they had a great product base. So much for "preserving the art of B&W"...

I'm not in love with the litigious society we live in either, but I have to say that there's a lot of businesses driving us there:

--My dry cleaner ruined a really expensive garment, then claimed they had a $10 replacement policy. (They didn't)
--I bought an airconditioner that didn't work. When I returned it, they said I would get full store credit. When I went back two weeks later to use it, they said it was actually store credit -25%.
--My wife bought some plaster at a tile store down the street. She got home and found out it had already been opened and partially used. When she tried to return it, the store owner wouldn't apologize and was nasty about giving her a new one.
--Found mold in a bag of cheese I bought from the grocery store. When I went to return it, the store manager told me that I have to pay closer attention to the expiration date (which it hadn't reached yet).

Think of all the 800 #s you have to call, all the voicemail systems you need to navigate, all the followup calls you have to make to solve petty problems. This is the model businesses are following, so I feel no remorse when they get sued. One day they'll learn that a little customer service goes a long way.

I'm still sorry about J&C, BTW....

--A

[Clarence Rhymer]

Were it not for J&C I would not have pursued LF or ULF. Well, I did have an 8x10 and 12x10 (British), but had only purchased one package of Forte 400 (from Eight Elm in Toronto). It was John's accessible pricing and wide range of affordable products that allowed me to dabble and then plunge. I spent 2-3K during his great sales, and have not looked back. In fact perhaps I should blame him for the 1K order of Bergger Art Contact II (Ole is part to blame) and this is not a common item in North America (Beau Photo got that one for me). Also, Freestyle has benefited from John's business. I probably have spent more there in the last year than I ever spent at JandC, but it was he who got me primed. I realize this is pretty small peanuts for many, but I have to add that his prices for 8mm movie film were half what I had been paying, plus his shipping was always most fair. I suffer from a quite remote location in the North of Canada, so all sales are subject to substantial shipping costs. I regret that John was not a little more communicative, but I wish him the best, and having run a small business for many years (non-photographic) I know the trials. Add health problems to that and well… I have no desire to speculate on what happened, only regrets. I do wonder how many others have expanded their horizons due to John’s presence in the market.

Thank you John.

[Wayne Crider]

Where one door closes, another always opens. I'm sure that whatever it is that John is suppose to accomplish, this setback is only the prelude to another adventure that will be good for his soul. Best of wishes and good health.

[BrianShaw]

I for one hate the fact that America has become a "I will SUE" country...

19th century US was a lot worse about suing than today's US. The movies make one think that all disputes in the Wild West were settled in the street, but most were actually settled in court.

Brian (who, all of the sudden, is quite glad he never "graduated" from 4x5)

p.s. I'm sorry to hear about the demise of J&C and wish the best of luck to John.

[Marko]

Think of all the 800 #s you have to call, all the voicemail systems you need to navigate, all the followup calls you have to make to solve petty problems. This is the model businesses are following, so I feel no remorse when they get sued. One day they'll learn that a little customer service goes a long way.

Not to hijack the thread (all available meaningful information has already been posted, after all), but the (big) businesses have already learned that decent customer service is too costly and that cheating, stalling and downright ripping off their customers actually brings the biggest gain.

It's the rule of small margins applied in reverse: if you cheat one million customers for one dollar each, chances are that less than half will notice and of those who do less than half will complain and of those who do less then half will persist past the first few lines of defense (hold hell on 800 numbers, clueless reps who eventually answer, etc.)... because their time is most often not worth a dollar or because they are simply to timid to persist with obnoxious "supervisors".

In short, chances are that a business which does not take really risky chances (being sued) at all and refunds the money to those customers who last through the entire process still ends up with $900.000 of "free money" out of initial $1 million.

There are also those who are willing to bet that very few people will actually sue over such trivial amount and fewer courts will actually accept such cases and they usually end up with more of the chunk.

[John Kasaian]

I'll certainly miss J and C. John is a great guy, his company was super to do business with and the products and service He offered were the best in my experience. I'll miss having the opportunity of doing business with J and C.

[Robert Skeoch]

What a shame.. John was great to do business with.
-Rob skeoch

[Doug Howk]

From a post by Michael Kadillak on APUG, it does appear that John plans to continue efforts with Kodak & ULF film size. I may have to reconsider my aversion to the yellow box outfit.

[Turner Reich]

Does anyone believe he will be back in some form or the other? It's hard to keep a good guy down. And has anyone figured out the "C" is in JandC? Maybe the "C" will do business as usual.

[roteague]

And has anyone figured out the "C" is in JandC? Maybe the "C" will do business as usual.

It is his wife.