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SAShruby
9-May-2007, 15:49
Is there a method how to expose and develop film and printing method to get high and low key picture?
Is usage of hot lights neccessary?
Thanks.

Brian Ellis
9-May-2007, 20:53
In general you get a high key picture by "overexposing" the film, though when you do it intentionally it isn't really overexposing, it's giving more than normal exposure in order to increase the negative density and thereby cause areas of the image that normally would be say dark to light gray to become some shade of light gray to white. That might be coupled with longer than normal film development to further increase the density on the high end. Low key is the opposite though film development will have relatively little effect with an "underexposed" negative. Use of hot lights isn't necessary. Obviously not all scenes or subjects are suited to either technique.

Maris Rusis
9-May-2007, 22:16
Exposing and developing film appropriately for high and low key pictures is important but it is not enough. You need high and low key subject matter as well.

High key subject matter is mainly middle grey and up to white. My exposure strategy is to read the brightest subject value in which I want discernable texture and give three stops more exposure; in effect putting the high value on zone VIII. Importantly, a high key picture seems to be enhanced if there are small black areas as well. They seem to kick the pale tones to a higher level of luminosity.

Low key subjects tend to be from middle grey down to black. Exposure, for me, is based on putting the darkest textured subject value on zone III 1/2 by spot metering the area and then giving 1 1/2 stops less exposure. Include a small area of white, say a specular highlight, for a good "kicker" to the dark tones.

In the past I used to extend development for "key" pictures. Now variable contrast paper gives me enough control and I use standard development.

SAShruby
10-May-2007, 11:09
Thanks for the posts.

RDKirk
10-May-2007, 19:56
You don't expose or process for "high key" or "low key." "Key" is a matter of lighting and scene selection.

If you want "high key," you select a scene that is mostly middle tone and higher and lighted at a low shadow/highlight ratio. If you want "low key," you select a scene that is mostly middle tone and lower and lighted to a high shadow/highlight ratio.

But exposure and processing should be appropriate to render the middle tones, where most facial tones lie, properly.

CG
11-May-2007, 12:15
You don't expose or process for "high key" or "low key." "Key" is a matter of lighting and scene selection.

If you want "high key," you select a scene that is mostly middle tone and higher and lighted at a low shadow/highlight ratio. If you want "low key," you select a scene that is mostly middle tone and lower and lighted to a high shadow/highlight ratio.

But exposure and processing should be appropriate to render the middle tones, where most facial tones lie, properly.

RDKirk is right - to a degree - yes, you can shoot what's in front of you at the exposure an incident meter tells you, (assuming the scene is high reflectance for high key and low reflectance for low key ) but I think there's room for other approaches to exposure and rendering. Pushing your exposure up or down will do other interesting things. So will changes in processing. So will combinations of all the above. If you can create a scene where the reflectance is inherently the key you want, a straight exposure may do the trick, but isn't it possible the addition of other controls may take things further? Isn't it possible that a low reflectance scene might be interpreted interestingly as a high key result? And vise versa?

Another item, maybe a tiny touch of diffusion, just below the threshold of where a viewer notices the diffusion, but that the character of a brilliant light suffused scene is gently emphasized. I know, messing with diffusion is anathema to some, but there are a few super subtle diffusion filters and techniques avaiable. Just a thought.

My mantra on new techniques: before you try to do "finished work" do repeated cycles of test, experiment, see results, take notes, and repeat with intellegent variations till you know what works and what doesn't.

>>>Is usage of hot lights neccessary?.>>>

In a word. No. But, continuous light of whatever kind, hot - tungsten, cooler - fluorescents, leds, daylight ... makes it easier for some - me included - to anticipate the results. Especially where the goal is making visible and emphasizing a chosen character of light.

RDKirk
11-May-2007, 13:54
Well, one can always expose film however one desires, but traditionally, "high key" and "low key" have not been a matter of varying exposure. For instance, Karsh's portraits are classically low key, but exposure is accurate.

Ole Tjugen
11-May-2007, 14:57
Both "high key" and "low key" should contain the full range from white to black; it's only the distribution that is different.

Oddly enough I find both easier to do with slightly extended development! You want a tonal range that is predominantly at one or the other end, and with very little "middle grey" values in it. In other words you want to have as much as possible of the negative on the toe or shoulder - or indeed both to get the full range.

Brian Ellis
11-May-2007, 20:10
"You don't expose or process for "high key" or "low key."

I do.

"If you want "high key," you select a scene that is mostly middle tone and higher and lighted at a low shadow/highlight ratio. If you want "low key," you select a scene that is mostly middle tone and lower and lighted to a high shadow/highlight ratio."

So a high or low key photograph actually isn't "made," you just find a scene that's already high key or low key and expose and process normally? That isn't how I do it.

"But exposure and processing should be appropriate to render the middle tones, where most facial tones lie, properly."

That's probably true if one is photographing faces but there are many high and low key photographs that aren't portraits.

"Well, one can always expose film however one desires, but traditionally, "high key" and "low key" have not been a matter of varying exposure."

That's not correct. You seem to be thinking only of studio photography, where the photographer can control the lighting. When you can't control the lighting you can still make a high or low key photograph if the scene lends itself to that type of photograph (e.g. a relatively low contrast scene without major important areas that fall below about Zone IV in the case of high key). Or vice versa for a low key photograph. In fact outside of the studio adjusting the exposure to an exposure that is different than the exposure of that would be used for a normal photograph is how a photograph becomes a high or low key photograph.

"For instance, Karsh's portraits are classically low key, but exposure is accurate."

I don't think anyone has suggesed that you make a high or low key photograph with inaccurate exposure. You make a high or low key photograph with exposure that's accurate for the photograph you want to make, but unless you can control the lighting that's often different from a "normal" exposure of the same scene.

JW Dewdney
11-May-2007, 20:36
Is there a method how to expose and develop film and printing method to get high and low key picture?
Is usage of hot lights neccessary?
Thanks.

I think the best way to cut through all the confusion here, is to answer, simply:

expose and develop as you would for a normal subject (if you don't incident meter, you should consider it).

AND, ESPECIALLY...

for a high key photo, take a picture of light-colored things.
for a low-key photo, take a picture of dark-colored things.

Brian Ellis
11-May-2007, 21:11
I think the best way to cut through all the confusion here, is to answer, simply:

expose and develop as you would for a normal subject (if you don't incident meter, you should consider it).

AND, ESPECIALLY...

for a high key photo, take a picture of light-colored things.
for a low-key photo, take a picture of dark-colored things.

I guess we're beating this to death but I hate to see incaccurate or misleading information passed along. You don't make high and low key photographs simply by photographing light and dark colored things and then exposing and processing normally. If someone wants to forego any element of creativity, and photograph everything "normally," I guess they can do that and wait to make a high or low key photograph until they stumble across a scene that has only light and dark colored things in it. But fortunately photography leaves much more room for individual creativity and interpretations than that.

JW Dewdney
11-May-2007, 22:10
Brian - likewise. I was referring to the fact that a 'high key' photograph is, GENERALLY speaking, composed of a subject matter of light tones. And the converse for dark tones. By exposing and processing normally, you are preserving those tonal relationships, where they should be on the characteristic curve. I fail to see what's so inaccurate about that. 'high key' does not usually involve and special or compensatory processing, so much as a compatible subject. Or have I simply not read the thread in enough detail?

RDKirk
12-May-2007, 05:29
I guess we're beating this to death but I hate to see incaccurate or misleading information passed along.

Brian, how do you do low key and high key in color? Seems to me that an "accurate" definition would have to be equally applicable to both, as well as to all subjects.

As I said, one always can expose as one desires and push all boundaries in the search for creativity, but words must have reasonably stable meanings for communication to occur.

Brian Ellis
13-May-2007, 00:32
Let's assume I encounter a landscape scene in which the predominant parts will print as a middle gray with b&w film if normally exposed and developed. There are a few areas that are one stop darker and few that are one stop brighter but the predominant areas are a middle gray. If I want to make a conventional print I'll meter the darkest areas and place them on Zone III or IV (dark gray). That means the predominant portions of the photograph will fall on Zone V (middle gray) and if I develop normally the brighest areas will fall on Zone VI (light gray).

But rather than making that photograph, I might decide to make a high key photograph. In that case I'd change my exposure. I'd place the darkest areas on Zone V or maybe even VI, which would cause the predominant areas to fall on Zone VI or VII (i.e. light gray or white with texture and detail) and the brightest areas on Zone VIII or IX (i.e. close to paper white). So I've made a high key photograph by altering the exposure. If I really wanted to kick up the bright areas I might give the negative N+1 development to move them up to a still higher zone. Reverse the procedure for a low key photograph, i.e. place the darker areas on Zone II instead of III or IV, etc.

That's what I meant by altering exposure to create a high key photograph. I certainly agree that the contrast range and values in the scene have to be suitable to a high key photograph. That's why I said in my original message that not all scenes are suited to high or low key photographs.

I would assume the same procedure could be followed for a color photograph but I don't do enough color photography to really think in terms of a high key color photograph.

The portions of RD's and JW's messages that I thought were misleading were the parts suggesting or saying that you can't or shouldn't alter exposure to make a high key photograph. As demonstrated above (I hope), altering exposure is a feasible way to make a high key (or low key) photograph if presented with a suitable scene.

JW Dewdney
13-May-2007, 00:42
Brian - the only exception I take to what you say is simply that what you are offering is a refinement of the process... all well and good... one could still meter for incident light (regardless of subject) and make the same high key print - it's just a matter of where the SBR maps onto the curve, right? Okay - well, I have another (slight) issue - which is that, I'm not sure if, let's say zone II through VI subject matter would really work as a high-key photo, except in some instances... it seems to me too often that there are visual cues that would make one feel that the photo wasn't properly printed (i.e. a pile of graphite at zone VII or so)

Anyway - I wasn't saying you SHOULDN'T so much as - "you don't NEED to". My concern was simply that the OP was going to meter a snow scene for middle-gray... that's why I was suggesting the incident metering. The other nice thing about just doing incident metering is that it keeps all your printing times corralled in closer proximity.

(man - I can't believe I'm engaging in zone talk!!! I swore to give that up YEARS ago!!)

RDKirk
13-May-2007, 07:09
Let's go back to the OP:


Is there a method how to expose and develop film and printing method to get high and low key picture?
Is usage of hot lights neccessary?

A: He's thinking it's a matter of exposure and development.
B: He's shooting someone or some thing in a studio under artificial lighting.

The best answer to his questions is the one I gave him.

CG
13-May-2007, 16:49
I Googled - with Google images - the term "high key" and got:

Presumably boosted exposure outdoors
http://k53.pbase.com/o4/75/47975/1/60383174.HighKeyTreees8632.jpg
http://photoinf.com/General/NAVY/Basic_Photography/fig0518.gif

Presumably boosted exposure in studio
www.worth1000.com/entries/221500/221680rwYV_w.jpg
www.chromasia.com/images/hi_key_rho_b.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/37/101154168_9ce0b4f107.jpg
http://myolympus.org/files/1161/_81065381.jpg
www.worth1000.com/entries/221500/221781PUwT_w.jpg

Then I Googled the term "low key" and got:

Interior shots
www.worth1000.com/entries/221500/221880WDfc_w.jpg
www.worth1000.com/entries/222000/222329hMpl_w.jpg

outdoors
www.worth1000.com/entries/222500/222635DIKH_w.jpg
www.itchy-animation.co.uk/tutorials/01-low-key.jpg
www.worth1000.com/entries/221500/221570JOrN_w.jpg
www.worth1000.com/entries/221500/221500YFhd_w.jpg

Indeterminate location
www.worth1000.com/entries/221000/221310joQN_w.jpg
www.worth1000.com/entries/221500/221544jOrn_w.jpg

The import of these pictures is that low key or high key seem to involve pushing the impression of light or darkness or mood through exposure manipulation.

I would say the exposure is "correct" because the picture works, rather than that the picture works because the exposure is what a meter says.

I doubt most of these photos were shot the way an incedent meter saw things, but rather the way the photographer wanted things to look - in essence, creative previsualizations.

Best,

C

CG
13-May-2007, 16:55
I might add that these are near the extreme of high or low key shooting, and do not encompass every kind of photograph that fit those categories. They simply illustrate my point that exposure is one valid and effective route to high or low key results. I would say bright or dark subject matter shot straight should be able to work too.

I don't recall mention of controls at the printing stage. Holding back an image or printing it down are effective too.

Best,
C

SAShruby
15-May-2007, 17:46
Geez, I might say I didn't expect so much controversy in it. At least I've got a confirmation that it's not a simple thing to do as I suspected.

I'm sorry for not post more here from myself, because I was very busy last week at work and I didn't have much time to surf here, but this is exactly what I wanted to trigger. I believe the answer is not that simple as it might look like. And I strongly agree, there are definitely several approaches how to do it properly.

With respect to terminology, I know that high and low key is referred to light scenario or composition, but more I think of it, it comes to me that it's not about light composition, it's about final product. The photograph.

And finaly, it looks to me that here is some general disagreement on how to do low and high key picture.
Keep going with the ideas. Because there is not too much information how to do it.

SAShruby
15-May-2007, 17:58
Let's go back to the OP:



A: He's thinking it's a matter of exposure and development.
B: He's shooting someone or some thing in a studio under artificial lighting.

The best answer to his questions is the one I gave him.

RDKirk,

The original question is in Subject matter. A and B are follow up questions.

SAShruby
15-May-2007, 18:00
>>>Is usage of hot lights neccessary?.>>>

In a word. No. But, continuous light of whatever kind, hot - tungsten, cooler - fluorescents, leds, daylight ... makes it easier for some - me included - to anticipate the results. Especially where the goal is making visible and emphasizing a chosen character of light.

Thanks for poitning that out, I was reffering to Continuous light which they are generaly hot. Not all of them but majority is. Thanks for correcting me.

CG
16-May-2007, 21:57
Both "high key" and "low key" should contain the full range from white to black; it's only the distribution that is different.

Can I respectfully offer an alternative? One can find lots of great images from the history of photography that are composed with a limited range of tones. I choose historic images only because they are easy to find, and are well known reference points.

Examples:
www.kodak.com/US/images/en/corp/events/stieglitz/portrait.jpg
http://photo.net/bboard-uploads/00FSlx-28509284.jpg
http://photo.net/bboard-uploads/00FSrp-28511784.jpg

I've never been quite comfortable with one or another "rule" when many great photographs don't follow them. Rules can preclude good work and stifle the creative process.

Best,

C

Ole Tjugen
17-May-2007, 02:34
All of those three examples seem to me to contain both black and white, with a distribution skewed towards the dark tones.

My "rule" still stands - but like all rules it's meant to be broken.