Your best substitute for Agfa Fiber paper?

[Toyon]

I've always loved Agfa multigrade fiber paper for its deep blacks. Since it was discontinued I have not been able to find an equivalent paper. I first tried Kentmere fiber, but I found that the deepest blacks came out gray, despite trying several developers and the addition of sodium carbonate, selenium toning, benzo and other tricks to try and get deeper blacks. Fotokemika fiber paper was even worse - with pasty gray results. I also tried Oriental, but found that the deepest blacks were no match for Agfa, having a slight grayish cast. Oriental warmtone is interesting, but suffered from a weird edge staining that I couldn't eliminate. Forte Polywarmtone (now discontinued) was very inconsistent, but occasionally produced great results. Bergger produced nice results but about every 5th sheet was factory mottled and it tends to fog under every safelight filter I tried. My best results have been with Ilford Warmtone. It has a certain luminance and the blacks can be coaxed out to thelevel of dark charcoal. Has anyone had good results with other papers, such as Fotospeed, Foma or had results at variance with what I experienced?

[David Karp]

What developer are you using?

I have a print made on Agfa MC Classic hanging just across from one made on Kentmere VC fiber (actually older Luminos - same thing). The blacks on the Kentmere product are quite deep. Its actually one of the things I like about the paper. The tone is different than the Agfa, much colder, so it is not a replacement paper in my mind. At the time these prints were made I was using Clayton P-20 (a PQ developer I believe).

[Toyon]

I tested with three developers: Agfa Neutol WA, Clayton Ultra Cold Tone and Edwal Platinum, plus several additives.

[David Karp]

A mystery. Anyone else have the same experience with Kentmere?

[Michael Graves]

A mystery. Anyone else have the same experience with Kentmere?

I've been happy with the tonal qualities of Kentmere. Just not the manufacturing and packaging quality. The last two boxes I bought were the last two I'm going to buy. Both were fogged along the outside edge of the the entire block of paper. Since the fogging was consistent from the top and bottom of the deck to the middle, I think it had to have occurred prior to packaging.

I was able to make smaller prints by trimming, but of the two boxes, I had several sheets that had a "rippled" emulsion. I'd make one print and the surface would be fine. Then I'd get one that looked like the emulsion was trying to lift off.

[Eric Biggerstaff]

Toyon,

I am a big fan of Ilford Warmtone FB and I get very deep, elegant blacks with it. Most of the images on my website are on that paper. I use either Dektol at 1+2 for 2 minutes or, more recently, Clayton P-20 at 1+6 for 2.5 minutes. I then tone that paper in Selenium 1+10 for no more than 2 minutes with constant agitation.

Also, I really like the Forte Polywarmtone but as you already know, it is no longer made. I have had excellent results with this paper in Clayton P-20 at 1+6 for 2.5 minutes then Selenium toned 1+10 for 1 minute constant agitation. All the images in the "New Work" section of my site are on this paper, and I have a healthy supply on hand.

I think the Agfa will be hard to replace. I always liked that paper as it seemed warm but not TO warm. Perhaps the Ilford will be a good replacement but you might have to work with it a little longer to really learn it.

Good luck and let us know what you find out!

[Gene McCluney]

How long are you developing your prints for? Some paper requires longer developing times to get good black, and you may have to adjust your exposure to allow for this longer developing time. I have not had any problem getting good blacks with any enlarging paper I use, but some of my print developing times are up to 4 minutes. Fibre paper, in general requires longer developing times than RC.

[JW Dewdney]

The last time I was in freestyle ( a few weeks ago) they still had boxes and boxes of MCC. I've bought a lot of the stuff in the last several months - including about 5 sealed packs of 50sht 20x24 from the 'bay. It's still around, if you snoop.

[Gene McCluney]

While finding existing stocks of MCC may be a temporary solution, the OP really needs to diagnose "why" he can't get good blacks with other papers that are quite capable of good blacks.

[JW Dewdney]

Well - I find that the notion of something being 'no longer made' is just a bit of a quixotic problem - if there's enough stock out there to last you several years... why bother learning to work with a new paper if you're quite happy with the results you're getting with the old one? If it ain't broke, why fix it?

It could well be that he has enough access to MCC to last his entire printing career. many of us, I'm sure, don't need THAT much paper.

I think people just get unnecessarily insecure about something being 'no longer made', when, if they actually analyse the situation... it's quite workable.

[Gene McCluney]

Well - I find that the notion of something being 'no longer made' is just a bit of a quixotic problem - if there's enough stock out there to last you several years... why bother learning to work with a new paper if you're quite happy with the results you're getting with the old one? If it ain't broke, why fix it?

It could well be that he has enough access to MCC to last his entire printing career. many of us, I'm sure, don't need THAT much paper.

I think people just get unnecessarily insecure about something being 'no longer made', when, if they actually analyse the situation... it's quite workable.

Well, I hate to be argumentative, however I feel that the OP has a problem with something in his printing routine that seems to prevent him from getting a good black with most papers, and if he can diagnose this and solve it, then his printing will benefit, regardless of what paper he ultimately chooses to use. I regularly use discontinued paper myself, so I do not "put down" using that, but I also print on currently made papers, and I find it easy to get good tones and good blacks on most all papers if you match the grade of the paper to the negative.

[scott_6029]

Both emaks and kentmere bromide produced nice blacks for me in amidol. The kentona was overall warmer toned paper than the bromide.

[JW Dewdney]

Well, I hate to be argumentative, however I feel that the OP has a problem with something in his printing routine that seems to prevent him from getting a good black with most papers, and if he can diagnose this and solve it, then his printing will benefit, regardless of what paper he ultimately chooses to use.

Well sure - I've got no problem with that - the more you learn, the better you are. I only brought it up because it seems like people just RUSH AWAY from discontinued products for all the wrong reasons.

[robert lyons]

Hallo from Berlin.....one thing about the Agfa Clasic paper, which I always loved....it's keeping quality is not like the older Agfa products. Here in Germany most people felt the paper had a shelf life of 2 years maximum....so while there are still boxes to be had....the time is quickly approaching over 2 years since production.

[Arne Croell]

Fotoimpex in Berlin has announced that they plan to reintroduce AGFA MCC and MCP (under slightly different names, probably Adox), as well as APX 100 and 400 and maybe APX 25 in the next years. Apparently they bought recipes and know-how and are working with former Agfa employees. For those who can read German, the announcement on their forum is here:
http://www.fotolaborforum.eu/index.php?showtopic=1772
Introduction for Adox MCC is now listed as April 2008, MCP August-November 2007.

An older thread on the topic on the Fotoimpex web site mentions that MCC will have - at least initially - a whiter base than the original Agfa MCC, as they do not have access to the original base, and custom manufacturing takes some time including ripening _before the emulsion is coated_. That thread is here:
http://www.fotolaborforum.eu/index.php?showtopic=1617

Since JandC will hopefully be operational again in September, one could hope that they would import all these products through their association with Fotoimpex.

And in one last thread on that site
http://www.fotolaborforum.eu/index.php?showtopic=1773
they are tentatively asking about interest in Portriga Rapid...

[Gary L. Quay]

I suggest Foma papers. I've used Kentmere, but I can't get it locally. Foma makes a descent range of papers, including a bromide paper that I find works splendidly with amidol. The Fomatone can be used in lith printing.

Maco bought out the last of the Agfa paper stocks, and they were selling them off of their web site last time I heard. Freestyle also repackaged Agfa papers. Look in their Close Out pages. There may be some there. I don't remember the name they sold it under, but I bet someone out there does.

--Gary