Truly A Joke with Betterlight

[George Kara]

I have been interested in acquiring a scanning back primarily to shoot artwork. One of the threads in this forum suggested to another poster that they go the users group on yahoo to find out more info. I also took this advice and requested to become a member. I am currently a member of a few forums on yahoo and am use to the procedure for signing up.

Check this response out from this guy.

"Hello!

Thank you for your interest in the Better Light Forum.

The Better Light Forum is primarily to support Better Light and Dicomed
scanning back owners and users. Our forum also provides a means for
Better Light to make announcements about software updates and other
news.

If you would like to learn more about our large-format scanning backs,
the best way is to read the articles and related information available
on our web site, www.betterlight.com.

A complete PDF copy of the ViewFinder User's Manual can be downloaded
from http://www.betterlight.com/manualsTutorials.html.

You can also try out our ViewFinder software (the application that
controls Better Light scanning backs) by downloading a free copy of
this program from the "Support/Downloads" area on our website. Even
without a scanning back connected, this software will operate in a demo
mode - you can also download a "practice preview image" (from
http://www.betterlight.com/downloadsUtilities.html) that can be loaded
into ViewFinder software as though a prescan has just been captured, so
that more of the software controls become operational.

If you already have a Better Light or Dicomed scanning back, please let
us know your contact information and the serial number of your system,
and we will send you an invitation to join our forum. If you don't yet
have one of our scanning backs, please contact us to discuss your
interest. We do occasionally allow prospective future Better Light
owners to join our forum after we know more about their intended
applications for our products.


Regards,

Robin Myers
Applications Specialist
Better Light, Inc.
Email: robin@betterlight.com"

That is a hell of a way to get new customers huh? And who the hell died and made this guy boss? This is a yahoo users group, not a forum hosted by betterlight on their website. In other words if you ever say anything that may be unflattering, this guy can delete or kick you out of the forum.

Needless to say this back is absolutely out of the question. I can imagine trying to get support from this guy.

Truly this BS. I guess Im not good enough to be a member of the old boys network at betterlight.

George

[Juergen Sattler]

That's how easy it is to lose a customer - BetterLight are idiots to let this happen!

[tim atherton]

However, many specialist applications and pieces of equipment have what are basically client user groups run by the company - sometimes, like this, on Yahoo.

For example, I have recently been working with the Gallery Systems TMS - a big database system for major museums and archives. They have a user group, but it's only open to individuals and organisations who are registered users of their system.

Just because it's on Yahoo Groups doesn't automatically make it a public group. Anyone can set up a group and restrict how they want. This just sounds like a group for Betterlight owners, essentially run by the company, who can both share information and communicate with the company (though I have no direct knowledge of this group itself). There's nothing intrinsically wrong with that.

[naturephoto1]

Certainly not a smart way of educating the photographer and inducing them to become an owner of their expensive backs is it? :( :eek:

Rather stupid and rude treatment.

Rich

[Anupam]

That's funny. Good thing I didn't have to send certified photographs of myself actually holding a 4x5 before they let me join this forum.

-Anupam

[George Kara]

Tim

Two months ago I purchased an AMG CL55. No one at the Dealer asked what my current auto serial number was or what my driving intentions were. There were very happy to take my money. Im not trying to act like a big shot - Im not. Im just shocked at such a response by this company. Yahoo has closed forums which are clearly stated when you knock at the door.

This is a company who obviously doesnt want or need new customers and does not welcome inquiries.

I actually became interested when I saw some of the shots with the back and the PS945 lens. Well I ordered the lens and should have it by next week (according to the dealer) and was looking at the back. Cooke didnt seem to have a problem selling me the lens. As a matter of fact I easily exchanged emails with both Cooke and the dealer - no problem.

[tim atherton]

Tim

Two months ago I purchased an AMG CL55. No one at the Dealer asked what my current auto serial number was or what my driving intentions were. There were very happy to take my money.
I actually became interested when I saw some of the shots with the back and the PS945 lens. Cooke didnt seem to have a problem selling me the lens. As a matter of fact I easily exchanged emails with both Cooke and the dealer - no problem.

Okay - I guess I misunderstood - you were looking to buy a scanning back, not join the owners user group?

[rob]

Before I bought my mamiya system, I joined their user group to read as much information as I could and asked a lot of questions. It was very useful. Sadly, the user group is gone now :(. I would interpret betterlight response that they don't want you to know much about their products before buying it. I'm a paranoid guy, there must be something ... ;)

[David Luttmann]

Can't say I support this type of thing....but it is one way to try to keep some of the population out that has nothing to offer. What I mean by that is exactly what has become all to common on internet forums....people who don't own the gear, or who haven't even tried it....joining just to throw in their uninformed opinions. We see it all the time. Comments like "this thing can't come close to 4x5 film".....when it fact, it surpasses it. Or people who say this gear slaughters that gear when they haven't tried it. A few photographers i work with call the "web experts."

[tim atherton]

(I would interpret betterlight response that they don't want you to know much about their products before buying it. I'm a paranoid guy, there must be something ... ;)

Their reply seems quite polite and informative. Another way to interpret their post is to say that - like many client user groups - they don't want it filling up with lots of folks asking the same basic questions and who may essentially be techno-tourists.

Comparing it to other similar groups I've been on, if the sort of discussion is about how the latest firmware update will work with the custom set-up they have at the National Nano-Technology Lab, they don't really want a stream of folks asking the same question about how long it takes the back to take a full-res image, or how heavy it is, or folks who are non-users coming on trying to make a point that the Betterlight back is better/worse than the Hassy back - so there - when they haven't ever even used one.

I'm not quite sure why their response seems so offensive?

[Frank Petronio]

I think they could set it up so you could view but not post until you become a registered user. That would allow potential customers to learn more, while keeping the dumb questions to a minimum.

[D. Bryant]

I have been interested in acquiring a scanning back primarily to shoot artwork. One of the threads in this forum suggested to another poster that they go the users group on yahoo to find out more info. I also took this advice and requested to become a member. I am currently a member of a few forums on yahoo and am use to the procedure for signing up.

Check this response out from this guy.

"Hello!

Thank you for your interest in the Better Light Forum.

The Better Light Forum is primarily to support Better Light and Dicomed
scanning back owners and users. Our forum also provides a means for
Better Light to make announcements about software updates and other
news.

If you would like to learn more about our large-format scanning backs,
the best way is to read the articles and related information available
on our web site, www.betterlight.com.

A complete PDF copy of the ViewFinder User's Manual can be downloaded
from http://www.betterlight.com/manualsTutorials.html.

You can also try out our ViewFinder software (the application that
controls Better Light scanning backs) by downloading a free copy of
this program from the "Support/Downloads" area on our website. Even
without a scanning back connected, this software will operate in a demo
mode - you can also download a "practice preview image" (from
http://www.betterlight.com/downloadsUtilities.html) that can be loaded
into ViewFinder software as though a prescan has just been captured, so
that more of the software controls become operational.

If you already have a Better Light or Dicomed scanning back, please let
us know your contact information and the serial number of your system,
and we will send you an invitation to join our forum. If you don't yet
have one of our scanning backs, please contact us to discuss your
interest. We do occasionally allow prospective future Better Light
owners to join our forum after we know more about their intended
applications for our products.


Regards,

Robin Myers
Applications Specialist
Better Light, Inc.
Email: robin@betterlight.com"

That is a hell of a way to get new customers huh? And who the hell died and made this guy boss? This is a yahoo users group, not a forum hosted by betterlight on their website. In other words if you ever say anything that may be unflattering, this guy can delete or kick you out of the forum.

Needless to say this back is absolutely out of the question. I can imagine trying to get support from this guy.

Truly this BS. I guess Im not good enough to be a member of the old boys network at betterlight.

George
I think their response was very reasonable, esentially the Yahoo group is there to support their customers and not to provide pre-sale information or support. I wouldn't be offended.

Don Bryant

[B.S.Kumar]

Robin's reply could have been a little more encouraging/welcoming, but it doesn't sound like a "joke". The level of customer support that Mike Collette and his team (including Robin) provide is by far the best I've ever seen. I joined the group and corresponded with Mike and other users for more than six months before I bought one. Each mail was answered promptly, and all my questions were answered honestly. Mike and Robin actively participate in the forum. If you're actually interested, join the group by sending a mail to Mike or Robin. You'll not find a better solution to shooting artwork, and you'll find people who've come up with innovative solutions to the problems involved in this field.

Cheers,
Kumar

[Jim collum]

i don't understand the offense either. all it takes is an email to Betterlight, with a description of your intended use, and you'd have access. As others have said... there's a lot of 'noise' on the internet.. and as a member of that list, i'm glad it's kept to a minimum.

that forum is a very informative one. it's not geared for sales support.. it's technical, (as well as moderated) the support from them is free. for a different experience, call up Kodak and ask to speak to some of their pro level support people. the last time i did, it was $90 for a 5 minute call, and required a $300 deposit before they would talk to me.

I've been a customer with them since 2001. I also spent about 5 years as a Tech Support manager at Cisco systems... and have very high expectations of customer support. Betterlight has given me better support than any other company in any other field that i have dealt with. and the quality of the back is excellent.

if you have any questions you'd like to ask, sending an email to Betterlight is a quick way of getting it answered. If you have a question from owners, there's a large list of them at http://www.betterlight.com/userGallery_list.asp .

[George Kara]

No thanks

I made my inquiry. You guys who are friends of the owner will continue to be the primary customer. I wish all of you great financial success to keep supporting this good old boy network.

I was offended and thats a fact. I dont like companies who act like snobs. Ive walked into Prada stores and felt more welcome.

[Jim collum]

No thanks

I made my inquiry. You guys who are friends of the owner will continue to be the primary customer. I wish all of you great financial success to keep supporting this good old boy network.

I was offended and thats a fact. I dont like companies who act like snobs. Ive walked into Prada stores and felt more welcome.

not about to try to change your mind on the company... it's obvious that it's not going to change for any reason at this point. as far as 'friends of the owner' goes.. i had no idea who te owner was when i bought the back.. becoming friends was a result of 6 years of excellent service from the company and from him. i think the reference to the 'us' (customers of Betterlight, myself being part of that 'us'), as a 'good old boy network', is frankly both inaccurate and insulting.

[Jack Flesher]

Hey George, your prerogative to do whatever you want, but ultimately it'll be your loss too...

Just to add my .02 for posterity, so others don't blindly follow your lead without doing some of their own research: The support and service I have received from Betterlight is unparalleled in today's market. I sold my Betterlight a while back so am no longer a customer, yet they continue to graciously assist me with technical and hardware issues I have needed help with whenever they arise. There is a ton of photographic, technical engineering and color science expertise in that relatively small company and they sure seem to share it willingly... Moreover, I still subscribe to the Yahoo list and glean numerous tips and techniques regularly from the members -- and even share a few of my own on occasion. In short, it is a great resource and great family to be part of.

Best of luck to you in wherever else you end up,

[John T]

We use the Betterlight where I teach and I've found that their customer service is second to none.

The sad part is that is George was looking for a back to shoot artwork, the Betterlight was by far the best for that application. It captures the subtleties and tonality better than capture backs. So, be declaring that he will not buy the Betterlight, he will have to settle for a lesser solution. Isn't that shooting yourself in the foot?

George, I highly recommend rethinking your attitude about the company.

John

[Greg Lockrey]

George, when either Jim or Jack contributes something, I read and learn, when both tell you the same thing it's just plain ignorance not to pay attention. These guys have forgot more than I ever hope to learn about largeformat digital capture.

[B.S.Kumar]

George, if you want to shoot artwork, join the group. You don't have to buy the Betterlight. It might be worth getting "unoffended" just to be able to read the amazingly informative posts there.

And like Jim said, I don't think I belong to a 'good old boy network'. Living in Japan probably accounts for this shortcoming :). But the network is good! People pass on work to others if it's out of their area, they buy and sell stuff, and give freely of their knowledge.

Cheers,
Kumar

[walter23]

I think that they must be running the forum as a form of customer support... and keeping out the hoards of non-owners is a good way to keep it focused. It sounds like they were polite with you and directed you to the information. I see nothing wrong with this.

You can't please everybody.

[Michael Graves]

That's funny. Good thing I didn't have to send certified photographs of myself actually holding a 4x5 before they let me join this forum.

-Anupam

They didn't? That's not fair! They made me.

[David A. Goldfarb]

Yahoo!Groups has also absorbed various free internet forum systems over time, so I wouldn't have any consistent expectations about the openness of Yahoo! forums.

[Bruce Watson]

That is a hell of a way to get new customers huh? And who the hell died and made this guy boss? This is a yahoo users group, not a forum hosted by betterlight on their website. In other words if you ever say anything that may be unflattering, this guy can delete or kick you out of the forum.

Needless to say this back is absolutely out of the question. I can imagine trying to get support from this guy.

Truly this BS. I guess Im not good enough to be a member of the old boys network at betterlight.

The only BS here is your attitude.

He says that the forum is for people who already own the equipment. It's clearly not a sales tool. Why would you think it is?

Yahoo groups are privately owned by Yahoo - it's not public property. So it's Yahoo who made him the boss. If you have a problem with this, take it up with Yahoo.

The software that Yahoo runs supports the concept of private groups, and moderated groups. The group in question is clearly a private, moderated, group. Get over it.

It's not evil that someone won't let you in when you pound on the door and demand to be let in without meeting the requirements for entry. My wife's bookclub runs a group on Yahoo what is invitation only and moderated. They won't let me join -- I'm the wrong gender. They won't let you join either. Throwing a temper tantrum because you want in and they don't let you have your way is a silly waste of everyone's time.

[George Kara]

Bruce Watson

Thank you very much for the help, insight and respectful comments to a fellow community member. I will respond to your future posts with the same care and concern.

[akovi]

George, I agree with Bruce, get over yourself. You seem to like to let people know how much money (power) you have. It also seems you like to have things your own way, both common characteristics of a spoiled child. I find your attitude to be petty, unbecoming, and immature. It's too bad you limit your own potential by judging and castigating others. It's probably for reasons such as this that Better Light keeps their forum private and moderates it, professionals don't need children kicking and screaming for attention when they are trying to solve their own problems!

"You must love what's lovable and hate what's hateable, but you must first be intelligent enough to know the difference!" - Arturo Toscanini