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Gary Smith
14-Mar-2007, 22:04
Hi All,

Sorry for the delay in getting back to everyone, between a fast trip to the US and the flu I have been somewhat behind in everything.

After talking with the rep, I have a pretty good idea of what the pricing will be and honestly its not cheap. Based upon the level on initial interest, at todays exchange rate, the holders are about 87.50 a holder. Part of the reasons are new tool up costs, creation of new molds and other assorted items necessary to make the holders.

The 87.50 (it will change with the exchange rate) is based upon the inital level of interest, which is 508 holders. (Yes its that high). However, if the level of interest drops then the price per holder will rise, but how much I dont know.

I know that according to his post, Paul Droluk and Fotoman about to market holders, at a rather lower price point, which will make this look alot less attractive to many people and thats not a problem, as long as somebody makes the holders.

So my question to everybody is this, at this pricing point is there enough interest to continue pursuing this or not? Also, it seems that the rep said they were surprised at at the level of interest and depending upon the out come of things, may market these holders themselves.

To me as long as new holders are made, regardless of whethers it this order, Fotoman or a bunch of elves at the North Pole, is the important thing.

Thanks again.

Gary

Rafael Garcia
15-Mar-2007, 04:06
I want the holders made and the 5x7 format to survive, but that is 1/3 the cost of my camera! I guess I will continue using my old wooden holders for a while longer.

AlaBill
15-Mar-2007, 04:08
I'm just trying to get into 5x7 so I will take my stated 20 units.

Bill

Ted Harris
15-Mar-2007, 06:13
Gary, hate to say it but at 87.50 I have no interest at all. Especially when the "rather lower price point" being offered by Fotoman is less tha $50. Fotoman's other products are all very well made and I would expect the same from their film holders. Finally, now that there is a real price I wonder what fraction of the original 508 holders will remain and what that will then do to the price?

Kevin Crisp
15-Mar-2007, 06:23
Gary: I'm still interested in 6. Kevin

Gary Smith
15-Mar-2007, 06:51
Gary, hate to say it but at 87.50 I have no interest at all. Especially when the "rather lower price point" being offered by Fotoman is less tha $50. Fotoman's other products are all very well made and I would expect the same from their film holders. Finally, now that there is a real price I wonder what fraction of the original 508 holders will remain and what that will then do to the price?


Ted,

I dont blame you at all. This is quite a bit higher than I orginally suspected. I think part of it is artifical. In that I really sense they are going to bring them to market themselves, and the high price might be a way get this order to fall through.

If Paul can bring holders out at nearly half the price, he will have my support. But if there is still enough interest I will continue to pursue this.

Thanks!

Gary

Ole Tjugen
15-Mar-2007, 07:11
Gary, hate to say it but at 87.50 I have no interest at all. Especially when the "rather lower price point" being offered by Fotoman is less tha $50.

I'll have to agree with this - $87.50 buys a lot of used 13x18cm holders. which I find I use more. :(

Scott Davis
15-Mar-2007, 07:20
At that price, I'm also not in. One wonders at the inner workings of the corporate mind, but if they are planning to market them themselves, you wonder why they'd go and quote such a high price to start. If anything, I'd think they should lowball this offer, and get a bunch of folks to buy them, then when they use them and like them and come back for more, then crank up the price. But hey, I'm not a CEO, obviously for some reason.

Sal Santamaura
15-Mar-2007, 07:37
Gary, personal thanks to you for getting this ball rolling. I'm going to drop out of the Toyo buy and go with Fotoman instead. Price, while certainly always a consideration, is not the determining factor. Rather, it was Paul Droluk's personal assurance to me that his product will not give off the terrible stench (aromatic-benzene?) that recent production Toyo holders do which changed my mind.

Ted Harris
15-Mar-2007, 08:15
Gary, before we all forget ..... many many thanks to you for getting this ball rolling. Paul Drulok reads this list regularly and your efforts certainly must have helped to crystallize his thoughts. A good deed indeed.

Christopher Perez
15-Mar-2007, 08:51
Gary, I really appreciate your efforts in working with Toyo to size the effort and costs. At $80+ I'll have to pass.

Michael Alpert
15-Mar-2007, 08:59
Before others try to jump on a boat that has not been built, I think I should say that Fotoman has not yet publicly committed itself to 5x7 holders; as far as I can tell, they are exploring the possibility.

Let's see who can make good holders with tight tolerances before we exclude any option.

Given that these holders are not easy to make correctly, and that they last for many years (that is, if solidly built), I am going to opt for the holder of the highest quality, even if it turns out to be the one that is somewhat more expensive.

Michael Alpert
15-Mar-2007, 09:11
I now see that there is anoher thread in which Paul Drulok has said that Fotoman is going to have 5x7 holders made. Still, I am going to wait to see how all this unfolds before saying what I'll buy. I need some more 5x7 holders, so I know I'll be purchasing a dozen of more from someone.

Dave Aharonian
15-Mar-2007, 12:52
Thanks for all your efforts here Gary! I definitely need another 6 or so holders and if the Toyo is the only option I'll buy them, but with the Fotoman showing up, I'd rather wait and see if I can get them for the lower price.

Michael Kadillak
16-Mar-2007, 15:25
I will take at least 10 of the Toyo holders as the price is proportional in costs between their 4x5 and 8x10 holders last I checked.

At this point I feel that it would be great for all parties to have an approximate time line as to when the Chinese 5x7 holders could be ready for delivery? Three months, eight months? Longer? At this point we have several balls in the air and based upon some of the posted comments folks are already making their decision to go with the least cost option and that is fine.

The best decisions are made with the most accurate information. Maybe it is just me, but I do not feel that as of this point there is sufficient information to feel completely confident that the market demand for 5x7 holders will be sequestered. But I am highly hopeful that this will be the case.

Cheers!

Gary Smith
16-Mar-2007, 17:19
Thanks for all the kind words.

I have to give them an answer by the end of the month, so I will leave this open until until March 30th. For anybody who is still interested, please let me know.

Thanx.

Gary

Paul Droluk
16-Mar-2007, 18:29
I will take at least 10 of the Toyo holders as the price is proportional in costs between their 4x5 and 8x10 holders last I checked.

At this point I feel that it would be great for all parties to have an approximate time line as to when the Chinese 5x7 holders could be ready for delivery? Three months, eight months? Longer? At this point we have several balls in the air and based upon some of the posted comments folks are already making their decision to go with the least cost option and that is fine.

The best decisions are made with the most accurate information. Maybe it is just me, but I do not feel that as of this point there is sufficient information to feel completely confident that the market demand for 5x7 holders will be sequestered. But I am highly hopeful that this will be the case.

Cheers!

Barring unforseen problems (not unheard of), we are anticipating being able to ship product in 90-120 days from the time we submit approved drawings.

Our first 4x10 holders will be arriving on Apil 10th, the drawings having been approved on February 8th... you can gage it from there. We will likely not submit drawings for the 5x7 & WP holders until after having examined the 4x10's carefully... so best guess would be mid-July to mid-August for delivery.

Obviously there's a lot of testing to be performed, perhaps revisions the the molds (not uncommon), and considerations like packaging before we'll be ready to market the product. Having already gone through this on the 4x10's will make the 5x7 and WP holders a faster proposition though.

resummerfield
16-Mar-2007, 19:05
Gary, you've done a lot of work on this, and I am going to stick with the Toyo. So as long as the price stays close to what you quoted, Iíll go for 12 Toyo 5x7 holders. I hope the Fotoman holders come through, and when they do Iíll put in an order for them, too.

Michael Kadillak
16-Mar-2007, 20:14
Thanks for all the kind words.

I have to give them an answer by the end of the month, so I will leave this open until until March 30th. For anybody who is still interested, please let me know.

Thanx.

Gary

I also want to express my appreciation for your hard work on this project.

All things considered, for Toyo to expect that over 500 holders can be sold ad hoc in such short notice is pretty naive on their part. The best you can do is to let them know the orders that you have gathered by the end of the month and also let them know that they have a competitor breathing down their throat. If this does not get their attention and they are not willing to be flexible then this part of their business module is not on their radar screen and just let it go. Raising the price for a smaller volume is a deal killer. Sell it and do your best and let the chips fall where they may.

The fact that you got this far is truly remarkable.

Cheers!

r.e.
16-Mar-2007, 21:44
I've reserved one of Mr. Droluk's 5x7 cameras, and I figure that I'll get the camera and the holders, without which the camera is not viable, when both are ready. Maybe July, maybe August. Maybe even early fall. They've already got a few cameras under their belt, and so I'm pretty confident that it will happen, and within a reasonable time.

Turner Reich
16-Mar-2007, 22:06
That's not bad put me in for a quarter of one.

Bill Mitchell
16-Mar-2007, 23:15
Gary,

Put me down for 8 holders. And thanks for all the work you've down on this project.

BILL MITCHELL

Michael Alpert
25-Mar-2007, 08:44
Gary, I am still interested in 5x7 Toyo holders. (I have 8x10 Toyo holders, which are very well made.) With people dropping out, do you think that the holders are still going to be manufactured? I'll send you a private message concerning the details of my interest.

Justin Cormack
25-Mar-2007, 16:09
I committed to your order if you go ahead; I want the holders; it is not the best situation though. Its a small market and splitting it up some random way isnt going to help anyone making the product.

Gary Smith
26-Mar-2007, 03:33
Thank you everyone. The deadline is this coming Friday for me to give them an answer, so I will keep it open until then.

Best Regards.

Gary

Herb Cunningham
26-Mar-2007, 05:02
gary, put me in for 10 holders, although I would have hoped they would be more competitive.

Herb

CG
26-Mar-2007, 09:24
First off, many thanks to Gary and Paul and Fotoman and all who have followed through to where we may be able to get freshly minted 5x7 holders.

I don't have a pressing need for 5x7 holders, but I think it's a really good idea for all who support this format to lend tangible cash support this very worthwhile effort, so I would like to order 5 if they do get sold at this price level. I will order more if the price drops.

Would it be a good idea to rename this thread so casual readers who just scan the lists of threads might get the idea more completely just from the thread's name?

Also, are any other fora ... apug ... AzoForum:www.michaelandpaula.com/mp/AzoForum
... ilfopro ... photo.net etc. being brought in on this opportunity?

It seems very worth our effort to start with a large enough indication of interest to show Fotoman that the effort is worth their time and considerable investment. They need to see that 5x7 is not going away and that holders will be a dependable cash stream. Really a forever cash stream.

Thanks again,

Charlie

CG
26-Mar-2007, 09:33
I meant to write "First off, many thanks to Gary and Paul and Fotoman and Toyo and all who ..." At this point any and all manufacturors need all our unqualified support for starting new initiatives in LF equipment and supplies.

C

Kevin Crisp
26-Mar-2007, 11:14
Gary: I'm interested in 6 of them.

Kevin

Herb Cunningham
28-Mar-2007, 05:41
Gary, I ran into some used holders that will take care of me for a few years, so I am going to withdraw my order for ten holders.


If that breaks the deal let me know and I can get back in to save the deal.

Regrets

Herb

Michael Alpert
28-Mar-2007, 07:44
Gary,

I did not receive a response to my private message, so I will re-state my request here. I would like 10 holders, assuming that the price will be about what you quoted. Like others here, I thank you for your effort.

Keiske
31-Mar-2007, 05:14
Gary;

I still wish to have 5 5x7 holders.

archivue
6-Apr-2007, 07:25
on the calumet website, there's some 5x7 holders in stock ?!

Michael Alpert
6-Apr-2007, 08:23
archivue,

I wish what you posted was accurate. I looked at the Calumet website. Although 4x5 holders are "in stock," 5x7 holders are "overdue from vender." which is the way these holders have been listed for many months. So, as of today anyway, they are not in stock.

Ted Harris
6-Apr-2007, 08:44
And ..... "overdue from the vendor" is hilarious in this case since Calumet and Fidelity are owned by the same company.

Oren Grad
6-Apr-2007, 09:01
And ..... "overdue from the vendor" is hilarious in this case since Calumet and Fidelity are owned by the same company.

The journey from left hand to right is long and tortuous...

robby parkman
9-Apr-2007, 15:46
Gary, thanks for all the hard worh, but at $87 I will have to get by with what I have. Thanks again

archivue
9-Apr-2007, 16:33
http://www.calumetphoto.com/item/LS5700K/

Michael Alpert
10-Apr-2007, 10:56
http://www.calumetphoto.com/ctl?ac.ui.pn=search.Search&query=5x7+holder&x=18&y=34

Calumet has three pages listing Lisco and Fidelity 5x7 sheet film holders. Every page, as of today, shows availability as either "on order" or "overdue from vendor."

Ted Harris
10-Apr-2007, 11:20
Michael, my point exactly above. They have beenlisted tht way on th eCalumet website for at least the past 6 months.

Michael Alpert
10-Apr-2007, 13:56
Ted,

It is possible that Fidelity holders will become available again, but I'll believe it when it actually happens. I don't think my response to archivue was complete. I meant to explain what I think is the cause of archivue's confusion. If you haven't ordered from Calumet, it is easy to overlook or misread the ambiguously placed "on order" notice in their product listing.

Gary Smith
10-Apr-2007, 14:35
Just a quick update. I am waiting on the final price quote from Toyo. Considering the number of people who are still currently interested, the number is less than half who originally expressed interest. I think the revised price will be very very high, but I am not sure yet.

At the price I was quote, honestly I can understand why. When I get an answer I will let everybody know.

Thanks!

Gary

Sal Santamaura
11-Apr-2007, 07:07
...It is possible that Fidelity holders will become available again...Several months ago, after looking over the Calumet Web site's stock status entries for 5x7 holders, I called their main Illinois phone number. First response to my question about whether one should actually expect to receive any within x weeks after order (which is what the Web page quoted) was "yes." Sensing that I was speaking to someone who simply answered the phone and had no real familiarity with this situation, I pressed him to check further. After waiting on hold for some time while he spoke to his supervisor, I was provided the following revised answer:

"They're not ever going to be made again. You should look for some on eBay."

I suggested they might want to update their Web site accordingly. Apparently they didn't.

Michael Alpert
13-Apr-2007, 13:17
Sal,

I called Calumet today. Various accounts of Fidelity's production problems have come my way in the past. From what I can gather, the corporation that owns Calumet and Fidelity does not want to simply discontinue 5x7 holders, but Fidelity has run out of some parts, which will be expensive or difficult (or both) to restock. So they do not plan to make more holders, but that, I guess, may change if they can solve the missing parts problem. What Fidelity has done is to put the entire format in some jeopardy, since no one new to large format is going to purchase a 5x7 camera if they cannot also find film holders. I hope Toyo or some other company will take over where Fidelity has left off. Fotoman is a possibility, but only if they make very good holders that are similar in materials and overall quality to Fidelity's.

Ted Harris
13-Apr-2007, 14:06
Michael,

It is not just a case of them having run out of parts; the production equipment and the molds and other equipment to make new parts are antiquated and no longer workable. Don't get your hopes up that they will begin production again. About a year ago they laid off most of the workforce and the employees that remain are busy assembling holders from existing 4x5 and 8x10 parts stock.

As for someone picking up the slack I think you can be sure that both Fotoman and Toyo holders will be excellent quality.

Finally, there are plenty of used holders on the market.

Kevin Crisp
13-Apr-2007, 14:44
There are plenty of used ones available -- my concern is with people who are going to hear: "5X7? They don't even make film holders that size any more" and drop the idea of using that size film.

Michael Alpert
14-Apr-2007, 07:37
Kevin,

I have been looking for used 5x7 holders in excellent condition, and I do not see them available anywhere. There are many sad old holders for sale that are always a struggle to work with. What we need are new holders of high quality at a reasonable price. A small company like Fotoman may turn out to be very important to the format.

bglick
8-May-2007, 12:30
Thanks for the find Sal ;-)

If there is enough people who want these film holders, Robert White has an excellent relationship with Toyo, I am sure he can facilitate this happening.....its all a question of volume.

Maybe someone can suggest a means for all of us to come together for a firm committment, then we approach RW. Maybe start a new thread? We will have to assume the price will be the last approx. price these film holders retailed for.... if anyone knows what that is, please advise. If we don't spear head this now, it will never get done...

My suggestion is, we approach RW with a price and volume, he will take it to Toyo - and if they agree, we all pay RW direct, up front to secure he does not eat'em...we have the added security of using RW, who has a stellar reputation, so near fear of lossing our money, cause there may be some long lag time between payment and delivery, I expect 90 days min. Any thoughts?

Kerry L. Thalmann
8-May-2007, 13:54
Maybe someone can suggest a means for all of us to come together for a firm committment, then we approach RW. Maybe start a new thread? We will have to assume the price will be the last approx. price these film holders retailed for.... if anyone knows what that is, please advise. If we don't spear head this now, it will never get done...

If you read back through this thread, the original estimated price for 5x7 holders from Toyo was $87.50 each. That assumed a demand of > 500 units. Once that price was announced, the demand fell substantially. If you read back just a few posts, you will see that Gary says the revised demand is less than half the original 508 units - which means a substantially higher price, likely well over $100 per holder - and I believe that's a direct price from Toyo with no dealer mark-up.


My suggestion is, we approach RW with a price and volume, he will take it to Toyo - and if they agree, we all pay RW direct, up front to secure he does not eat'em...we have the added security of using RW, who has a stellar reputation, so near fear of lossing our money, cause there may be some long lag time between payment and delivery, I expect 90 days min. Any thoughts?

Gary Smith has already gone to Toyo twice for quotes based on the changing demand. I'm not sure how involving Robert White will help things when the price - without any dealer mark-up is likely over $100 per holder. Don't get me wrong, the folks at Robert White are great to deal with. I just don't see what's in this for them, and what is the value of involving an intermediary on a third continent.

Kerry

bglick
8-May-2007, 14:15
Kerry, thanks for that post... I just assumed it never got off the ground...... I failed to back-read those posts, very sorry..... bummer, I thought the demand was greater.. agreed, RW can't help us. My apologies to Gary, for all the leg work he did to bring this to fruition.... i was down with injuries for awhile and fell out of the loop.

I guess the only hope would be, if a dealer would buy more than the demand on this list, and sell them over time...but I guess at those prices, it would be a risky undertaking for the dealer as even with a small mark up, they would retail in the $125 range, quite spendy.

Heck, I'm going digital! ;-) LOL Please, no attacks ;-(

Kerry L. Thalmann
8-May-2007, 15:04
Not all hope is lost. In one of the many recent holder threads, Paul Droluk of Fotoman has expressed an interest in producing 5x7 holders - along with the 6½x8½ (Whole-Plate) and 4x10 holders he has already committed to manufacture. With Toyo 5x7 holder production looking like a non-starter, perhaps Fotoman will jump in and fill the void. I currently have a 4x10 Fotoman camera in my possession for review and am awaiting the arrival of a 4x10 Fotoman holder as well. The quality of the 4x10 Fotoman, and all accessories, is top-notch. It's even more refined (new, smoother helical focusing mount, better viewfinder, very nice split image rangefinder, etc.) than the 6x12 and 6x17 Fotoman cameras I reviewed a couple years ago. So, I'm optimistic that any film holders produced by Fotoman will be of similar quality.

Kerry

David Karp
8-May-2007, 17:50
If you go to the Fotoman website's Q&A page (http://www.fotomancamera.com/faq.asp) you can search for threads on film holders. I asked when the WP holders would be ready, and they say they are shooting for July this year. Another question popped up today regarding the size of those holders. If you search for "film holders" you will find some on the 5x7 holders as well.

bglick
8-May-2007, 18:58
Kerry, that is great news. If Paul at Fotoman makes the 5x7 holders, we are safe...he has been producing top quality products. I too have Fotomans helical focus mounts, and they are top shelf indeed, much better than the Schneider HFM's ! Fotomans 6x17 bodies are also very impressive, as well as their new rangefinders and view finders. Thanks for sharing this, I am sure Paul will comment soon.

I never heard the term Whole Plate film holder before... what camera is this for, 8x10? Where does one get film that size?

Ted Harris
8-May-2007, 19:29
In my last conversation with Paul he indicated that he would have the 5x7 holders ready to go even before the WP holders. July, maybe .... depends on how the prototype machining goes and you can never tell about that.

I echo Kerry's setiments about Fotoman products. My reaction to the 4x5 I tested was exactly the same as his to the other sizes.

David Karp
8-May-2007, 19:32
Ilford makes 6.5" x 8.5" FP4+ and HP5+ once a year for its run of special order sizes. I think that there is also another source, but cannot recall who it is. This is an older size that almost completely died. A few people, like our Sal Santamura, Jim Galli, and Oren Grad, are devotees of this format.

I just purchased a Whole Plate Improved Seneca camera. The advantage of the format, besides the almost perfect size for contacts and nice aspect ratio is that the cameras are smaller and lighter than an 8x10 camera. It is much easier to haul one of these cameras around than the corresponding 8x10.

Check out this article, by Oren, about Sal's new camera: http://theonlinephotographer.blogspot.com/2007_04_01_archive.html. Search the page for "Ebony" or "Whole Plate."

Gary Smith
8-May-2007, 19:47
Sorry for replying to this thread late, I am currently on the road in Sapporo. At this point Toyo has not comeback with a final price. And when I called them again two weeks ago, they said the just give us a little more time.

I dont know why they are dragging thier feet, my guess is they are either planning on marketing the holders themselves, or they are not sure what to do. Regardless, if Paul Droluk and Fotoman can bring them in faster and at half the cost I say support his efforts. I have no doubt they will be as good as the Toyo holders would have been.

If anybody has any questions please feel free to contact me. I am very sorry that Toyo hasnt come through, and my apologies.

Thanx!

Gary

Jan Pedersen
8-May-2007, 20:34
bglick, If sincere about supporting Paul and the Fotoman project, email him and commit to however number of film holders you want. Others have done that also why it's been possible to come out with an estmated price. Paul is pretty quick in responding.

Jim Grimes
11-May-2007, 19:46
I currently have seven holders for my 2D and could use at least six more. I don't know id I could afford 100 for new holders so I continue to shop around for good, used ones. I will keep a watch on this thread to see what happens, but will probably go for used as they become available. Now, if the new ones would sell for 50 or so, I am in.

false_Aesthetic
9-Dec-2007, 15:20
Has the possibility of getting Toyo 5x7 film holders died?

Toyon
9-Dec-2007, 16:56
Man, I think you guys are being penny wise. Toyo 4x5 holders sell for $64 and are excellent. The proposed 5x7 holders are priced fairly.