attaching a digital back to a view camera

[adrian tyler]

the recent "stiching" threads, coupled with the fact that a high end digital solution would be great for my wife's restoration studio (not to mention my lab costs) has had me thinking seriously about the options...

as continuity would have it my local dealer just happens to have a demo phase one p45 for half price, but although it'd be great to have one of those things on the back of a mf camera, it's not gonna cut the mustard for my serious work, i need a workable solution to get it on the back of my 4x5. the thing is i don't see any elegant solutions out there, especially if you want to visualise scenes for "stiching" using movements etc...

any of you gurus out there got any ideas?
thanks

adrian
http://www.adriantyler.net/

[Walter Calahan]

Use a 6x9 view camera with a back for the P45, and tether the back to a laptop so you have a live view of each frame for stitching and movement.

[Greg Lockrey]

Here's a "poor man's" solution. Canon 5D and Sinar P rear standard. I use Really Right Stuff hardware and the bellows was made by StudioTool STM. I found that mounting the camera vertically gives me more flexablity. Typically I need to stitch two images, but if I had to, I could go to three on the horzontal and two vertically (6 images) with my 90mm or 150mm lenses. A little more with the 150 due to the mirror box gets in the way with the 90. I work for some of the leading artists in Northwest Ohio and Southern Michigan copying their artwork, always have repeat business with no known complaints. ;)

[Ash]

I'm more interested in the Leica M (4 or 6??) on the other tripod :D

[Greg Lockrey]

I'm more interested in the Leica M (4 or 6??) on the other tripod :D

That's an M4 and Visioflex w/ Extension Bellows and 65mm Elmar. We make 35mm slides of the artwork with that rig.

[Gene McCluney]

The professional solution to get digital capture from a view camera is to use a Betterlight Scanning Back. These go onto the camera just like a standard 4x5 cut film holder. Just slide right in. They have a cable that attaches to a controller box, which attaches to your computer. You control the scanning back from your computer. These capture an image almost full 4x5, and they are not a Bayer pattern, but capture full RGB for each pixel. While not cheap, they can often be purchased used. I have one, it is great for photographing paintings for high-quality reproduction. They are a fraction of the price of medium-format digital backs.

[naturephoto1]

Gene,

At between $6500 and $18,000 (with the newest expected shortly for even more money) for the Digital Scanning Insert, the Better Light backs are anything but inexpensive. :eek: :(

Rich

[Gene McCluney]

Gene,

At between $6500 and $18,000 (with the newest expected shortly for even more money) for the Digital Scanning Insert, the Better Light backs are anything but inexpensive. :eek: :(

Rich

Oh yes, I know they are, but compared to other NEW prices for medium-format backs that can go as high as $39,000..this would seem to be a better deal...and and and...the Betterlights have been around a while, and I see owners sometimes selling them for as little as $2900. The entry level Betterlight 4000 produces a 56mb file in 8 bit. And, due to the quality of the "pixels" can easily be interpolated to twice this size without compromise. Plus, the Betterlight scanning back allows you to actually USE your 4x5 as it was intended, getting almost the full format, composing on the ground glass, using all movements without "issues", etc. (The Betterlight crops similar to what a 4x5 polaroid test would).

[adrian tyler]

getting to use the 4x5 as gene says is what it's about, unfortunatly betterlight backs, although suitable for the work my wife does, won't work for lowlight or outdoor stuff that i do. and i would need an untethered thing.

seems like we are going to have to wait till the market dictates that they can allow us larger sensors...

[Jack Flesher]

The P45 on the back of a view camera has color shift issues if you use it with the lens shifted or tilted. They have built a "white-frame subtraction" feature into the software to correct for it, but it requires taking two shots -- one with a expo-disc, plus the normal shot -- to get a color-correct image. Just thought you should be aware of that.

Cheers,

[Gene McCluney]

getting to use the 4x5 as gene says is what it's about, unfortunatly betterlight backs, although suitable for the work my wife does, won't work for lowlight or outdoor stuff that i do. and i would need an untethered thing.

seems like we are going to have to wait till the market dictates that they can allow us larger sensors...

The solution is simple and self-evident. You just shoot FILM in low light and outside, and use the scanning back in situations (your wifes work) where there is an advantage to do so. I will say that there are some photographers that have done some absolutely outstanding landscapes with the Betterlight system. The control box can be had in a portable (battery) configuration, and of course a laptop is battery powered. I have a Betterlight. I would rather shoot b/w film outside, but that is just me.

[adrian tyler]

yes jack, i have read all of your threads relating to this subject (a great help, thanks!)... it just seems a wee bit convoluted for us lf'ers relative to just getting the thing on the back of the camera, i mean has none of the manufacturers heard of the word graflock or baby graflock? could it be so difficult to give us a 6x9 or a 4x5 sensor, the military surely have 20x24" sensors or whatever out there...

for all the advantages i think i'll step back for a while, the compacticity and simplicity of film wins out for me still yet-

[Dominique Labrosse]

Adrian,

The bigger the sensor the more it costs to make and the less units one can make per wafer. This is why a 2+ year old Canon D1s Mark II still sells for $7,000+ and why all the MF backs cost $10,000 - $40,000.

That's why a full 4x5 digital back is highly unlikely. Especially considering the resolutions we are seeing from the 645 sized backs out there today.

Just today I was thinking that a Fuji GX680III with a modern MF digital back would be my perfect digital camera with view camera movements (I rarely use rear standard movements in my work). Too bad I don't have $50-$60K to invest in such a dream system.

[Ash]

That's an M4 and Visioflex w/ Extension Bellows and 65mm Elmar. We make 35mm slides of the artwork with that rig.

That's pretty cool.

[Greg Lockrey]

Thanks Ash. :)

[Nick]

Another choice similar to Gregs "poor man's" solution is a zoerk adaptor with a 5d and pentax 645 glass. I do art repro with this and the pentax 120 macro. It's not quite as flexible as I can't do multi-row stitching, but by using the camera in a vertical orientation I can stitch 3 vertical frames and get quite a nice file.

The nice thing about this setup is I can also use the excellent Pentax FA 35mm for interiors and landscape. My guess is that Greg's system is more limited in it's wide angle compatibility (though it has features my system lacks).

[Marko]

The bigger the sensor the more it costs to make and the less units one can make per wafer. This is why a 2+ year old Canon D1s Mark II still sells for $7,000+ and why all the MF backs cost $10,000 - $40,000.

That's why a full 4x5 digital back is highly unlikely. Especially considering the resolutions we are seeing from the 645 sized backs out there today.

Or perhaps until some day somebody manages to figure out a reliable and precise way of stacking several smaller sensors into a single large one. Call it a synchronized array or maybe a high resolution array, or something along those lines. After all, astronmers have been doing it for decades with all sorts of sensors. All that would be needed is a little overlap and software to stitch it all up on the fly. I am not an engineer, but I'm sure they could find a way if it was financially feasible.

[Greg Lockrey]

Another choice similar to Gregs "poor man's" solution is a zoerk adaptor with a 5d and pentax 645 glass. I do art repro with this and the pentax 120 macro. It's not quite as flexible as I can't do multi-row stitching, but by using the camera in a vertical orientation I can stitch 3 vertical frames and get quite a nice file.

The nice thing about this setup is I can also use the excellent Pentax FA 35mm for interiors and landscape. My guess is that Greg's system is more limited in it's wide angle compatibility (though it has features my system lacks).

I can shift a 65mm Angulon a couple of times (makes it about a 30mm). If I need more wide angle, I do have Canon 24mm. Canon has a shift lens in that lens size as well.

[MJSfoto1956]

At between $6500 and $18,000 (with the newest expected shortly for even more money) for the Digital Scanning Insert, the Better Light backs are anything but inexpensive.

However, they regularly show up for sale used. BetterLight has a fabulous track-record of supporting and upgrading all their old backs to their newer designs. You won't find a more knowledgable bunch when it comes to repro work specifically and digital capture in general.

There is a BL group on yahoo groups where these items come up for sale. See: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/betterlight/

Cheers,

[Jack Flesher]

it just seems a wee bit convoluted for us lf'ers relative to just getting the thing on the back of the camera, i mean has none of the manufacturers heard of the word graflock or baby graflock?

The problem here I think is one of mechanical tolerances; the MF DB's need to be precisely aligned with the lens plane and GG to generate good results. As already mentioned, alignment gets more and more critical as you move down in format, and Graflok is not all that "tight" to begin with. Frankly, I believe this is the main reason LF film and cameras -- at least 4x5 -- will be around for a long time yet to come; at least until we get a true "large format" (at least 72mm x 96mm) single-capture digital back...

You should to take a look at the kapturegroup website for possible solutions: http://www.kapturegroup.com/

Cheers,

[Gordon Moat]

Or perhaps until some day somebody manages to figure out a reliable and precise way of stacking several smaller sensors into a single large one. Call it a synchronized array or maybe a high resolution array, or something along those lines. After all, astronmers have been doing it for decades with all sorts of sensors. All that would be needed is a little overlap and software to stitch it all up on the fly. I am not an engineer, but I'm sure they could find a way if it was financially feasible.

There are a few custom sensor array manufacturers. They tend to be mostly for industrial, aerial photography, or military applications. Usually custom software that matches the captures and blends them together. Best I saw so far was a 16MP three CCD module that could be arranged in anything from a 2 by 2 grid to a 3 by 4 grid, limited mostly by data transfer rates over FireWire. Each module contains a splitter prism with separate filtered red, green and blue 24mm by 36mm CCDs. I don't recall the specifics on the software, or how much overlap, though I remember a comment about 3 frames per second capability. Obviously not very portable, compact, nor inexpensive.

Large Format film is still incredibly good. While it might seem to be obsolete technology, as long as some large format film (and processing) are still available we can expect technically good results. Medium format digital backs show up used, or as discount refurbished items, more often every year. While it is tempting to adapt something, the cost is still not insignificant, and focusing accuracy on a ground glass remains an issue.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio (http://www.allgstudio.com)

[Nick]

I can shift a 65mm Angulon a couple of times (makes it about a 30mm). If I need more wide angle, I do have Canon 24mm. Canon has a shift lens in that lens size as well.

Not at all trying to get in a pissing match, but wanted to point out with the Pentax 35mm lens I can get a similar coverage as a 17mm in 35mm terms. A massive difference from 30mm.

As I said though, no tilt, no multirow tiling. Movements on your setup look more nicely handled as well. The zoerk does travel easily though!

[ykumar]

"the thing is i don't see any elegant solutions out there, especially if you want to visualise scenes for "stiching" using movements etc..."

have a look at www.camerafusion.com. We produce an affordable solution that works well for art reproduction. As well it works in conjunction with a ground glass visualizing compostion, and adjusting view camera movements.

[Bob Salomon]

Linhof makes a Hasselblad V adapter back that fits any 4x5 Graflock camera for digital work. Cost is in the high $3xx.00 range.

[foto-z]

Although it is fairly obvious, it should be said that scanning backs require special light conditions, and extremely stable white light doesn't come cheap. Apart from that, they do seem to be the answer for art repro.

I have a question of my own - how do I fit a Rollei-mount digital back onto my Arca Swiss? Do I need to get a local shop to build something? I'd rather avoid the headache.

[BradleyGibson]

Hi, Jack,

I've seen the color shift issue and the remedy in action. It seems to work pretty well, although it is a hassle having to shoot that second shot.

Does anyone know if this particular issue:
a) is limited to the P45 back (in the 33+MP digital back arena)?
b) also occurs with the Hasselblad CF-39 back (also uses the Kodak sensor)?
c) also occurs with the Sinar and/or Leaf 33MP backs (using the Dalsa sensor)?

Thanks,
Brad

[MYKO]

Hi Adrian, Since the Betterlight scan-backs have been called out by name I guess it''s OK to tell you about another product that might suit your needs. MultiStitch (www.multistitch.com (http://www.multistitch.com)) is a stitching adapter plate for LF use. FULL DISCLOSURE: I am a principal in the company that makes it.

[Steven Scanner]

Not a "poor man" solution, more of a "poor man that owes some people some money" solution.
A flatbed scanner with some minor hardware and software ajustments can create a b/w image. An average scanner with, let's say, 1200DPI multiplied with the size of an A4 sheet creates a megapixel image.
Downside: only for still images unless you like the strange effects it creates. It only creates b/w images unless you make 3 images with colored lenses and photoshop them together with the corresponding colors.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?84761-New-from-the-Netherlands

[Yardley]

I've worked with a P25 on a Sinar P 4x5. It works really well. I think phase makes the sinar rear standard adapter. Rodenstock digital lens on the front - tethered to a work station.