Scratching Efke Negs

[alec4444]

Hey Guys,

Still pretty darn new to LF and I'm cutting my teeth with 11x14 Efke sheets developed in a tray in Rodinal. I use a water stop and TF-4 Fixer. I'm having (albeit inconsistent) scratching problems on my negatives.

I began by developing four sheets at a time (only had two holders) then upped it to six sheets (got more holders) and have since lowered it back to four or less (still have more holders, but a bit of sense too). I've been developing them in a tray in my bathtub with normal agitation with the emulsion side up. I do rotate the sheets (one on top of the other) as I develop and fix them.

I've heard that Efke has a soft emulsion, and that a hardener added to the stop bath or fixer may help. I'm new to the hardenr thing so when I was in B&H I was unsure if the Heidco (sp?) hardener would work with TF-4 or if I would be accidentally making a bomb. (Although I'd imagine they'd tell me that if such were the case...)

Anywho, any tips for me? I thought that being careful would be enough, but that seems not to have worked (or at least not changed anything substantially). Could I be scratching it while trying to load the holder?

Thanks!
--A

[vinny]

Yes you could be scratching while loading or unloading. I've used a lot of efke and scratches appear from nowhere. I use hangers in tanks and that cuts down on most of them. I wouldn't dream of processing that film in trays unless one at a time.

vinny

[Gary L. Quay]

I use Efke extensively, and I've torn many holes in the emulsions. Recently, I've been using PMK Pyro developer since it hardens while developing. Something I do that may be of interest: take two of each image. Just flip the film holder over, and repeat your exposure. Efke's lower price allows a little more waste built into the process.

--Gary

[reellis67]

I've had problems with scratches on EFKE films in the past and am reluctant to use them because of it. I was never able to get sheet film developed without scratches, always on the best negatives. Hangers and tanks would be my suggestion if you continue to the use it.

- Randy

[alec4444]

Hmmm, ok, thanks guys. Perhaps I should be looking into other films then. I always loved Efke in the 120 format and I still like it in LF, but it really does hurt to spend so much effort making a photograph only to have scratches on the negative. And while it doesn't happen all the time, it's often enough to affect 50+ percent of the photos.

What about other films? The 200 speed Bergger (BPF200) looked intriguing. Then there's FP4. I think I've read that HP5 doesn't stain well, Tri-X is nice but pushing it at $9/sheet. There's also that new Rollei film out there. Are any of these films a bit more scratch resistant?

And back to the Efke for a sec, has anyone tried a hardening solution in the stop or fixer?

Thanks!
--A

[Daniel Grenier]

I use brush processing for my Efke 7x17 and 8x10 as I found this film to be near impossible in a multi sheet "shuffle" situation. Brush processing is painfully slow as you can only do one sheet at a time but scratches are virtually non existent now. You might want to give that a try (lots of past threads on this method on the forum).

Good luck.

[Ken Lee]

I have found that when I can see what I'm doing in the dark, I make far fewer scratches.

I use an infra red viewing device (http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/tech/tech.html#Monocular), which gives me 100% vision in the dark, while loading, unloading, and while going through all the stages of processing.

Now, my only excuse is inattentiveness. :rolleyes:

[j.e.simmons]

I suspect the scratches on Efke film can come long before the fixing stage. I've successfully used it with tanning developers (510 Pyro, Pyrocat HD, Pyrocat PC) but only by developing one sheet at a time. I either brush develop or use a minimal agitation scheme in tubes.

I don't think I would begin using Bergger until I learned what their production situation is with the closing of Forte.
juan

[Gene McCluney]

I don't think I would begin using Bergger until I learned what their production situation is with the closing of Forte.
juan

Now this is a peculiar statement. Just because a vendor may have to change its manufacturing source, is really not a reason to stop using them. Does this make the current Bergger film bad? Should one stop using Azo contact paper from Kodak, even though it is discontinued and hard to find?

Bergger has plenty of inventory. To keep them going, one SHOULD purchase their film. When you are dealing with LF or ULF film, supplies are always marginal, and if you can find the size you want, you should attempt to use it.

[Gene McCluney]

Hey Guys,

I've heard that Efke has a soft emulsion, and that a hardener added to the stop bath or fixer may help. I'm new to the hardenr thing so when I was in B&H I was unsure if the Heidco (sp?) hardener would work with TF-4 or if I would be accidentally making a bomb. (Although I'd imagine they'd tell me that if such were the case...)

Thanks!
--A

The easiest way to use a hardener in your Fixer is to just use Kodak Rapid Fixer with hardener. It comes as a two part concentrate, you mix together. It is inexpensive and readily available. You can be assured that the hardener is compatible with the fixer in this case.

Also, and I'm sure you already know this, but the cooler you process, the better for avoiding scratches. You should try to keep your temps very near 68f. Also, for your water bath pre-soak, you should use tap water (municpal water) not distilled water, as the residual minerals (salts) in tap water can do a little hardening.

[j.e.simmons]

I don't think my statement is peculiar at all. Before I began to test a film, I'd want to have some assurance of continued availability. If, as you say, there is plenty of Bergger in stock, perhaps one would want to make the move there. However, as a former Azo printer, I was assured that there were several years supply of Azo left, too - and it was gone in a few months. As I understand film and paper production from folks who know far more than me, moving production from one facility to another is extremely difficult. I'm simply saying that before making a switch, I'd try to understand what the future might hold.
juan

[Gene McCluney]

I'm just saying that it is good to support the vendors that offer product in the sizes we need. Their continued revenue stream will ensure future product. While it may not be identical product.

[Doug Howk]

Its one thing to support a vendor such as Freestyle who tries to provide LF film in all standard sizes. Its another thing totally to try to standardize on a manufacturer's film when it turns out that he is only re-branding. We spend alot of effort, some more than others (BTZS), in getting to know all the quirks of a film. If we can't standardize, then we're spending $6-7 per sheet every box just to re-test before we even take an image.

I use tubes for Efke development in order to avoid scratches. Fortunately, 7X17 fits in same diameter tubes as 8X10 (grey conduit pipe).

[Gene McCluney]

Its one thing to support a vendor such as Freestyle who tries to provide LF film in all standard sizes. Its another thing totally to try to standardize on a manufacturer's film when it turns out that he is only re-branding. We spend alot of effort, some more than others (BTZS), in getting to know all the quirks of a film. If we can't standardize, then we're spending $6-7 per sheet every box just to re-test before we even take an image.



Well, my suggestion then would be to only purchase Ilford, and larger quantities when they have their yearly ULF cutting. They have the most likelyhood of being around for the long haul. Second would be Eastman Kodak.. These former Eastern European companies are probably not as well capitalized.

[Gene McCluney]

If you have already worked out your exposure and development for Bergger film, wouldn't it make sense to continue using it as long as it is available? AFAIK, no Bergger product has been discontinued, and there is inventory. Bergger is certainly not closing down. I doubt they would be foolish enough to try to pass off another film made in another plant as "identical" to current Bergger films. Rather, they will come up with new names for new films.

[alec4444]

Thnaks guys! I'll look into the brushing development process...I still have quite a bit of Efke left and I'm not about to toss it. I would love to get it to work because I like the look of the film (minus the scratches).

I've heard of the IR goggles approach and the prices are falling quickly. I bet that helps a lot!

--A

[scott_6029]

Not necessary to change film, or brush. I use EFKE in 7 x 17 and tray develop extensively. Emulsion side up. Use pyro as it does harden emulsion, and makes it slippery. Shuffle bottom to top. After you align all negs in the soup, slide the bottom out from the BACK, lift and then gently place (almost flop/lay it) on the surfce of the water. Then push the middle down with your hands and move towards the edges. Use teh smallest tray possible so teh images don't swim around...it makes it tougher to align the negs in teh soup. It's the corners that will scratch. I do six 7 x 17's at a time in pyrocat hd in metol. I also pre-soak for 5 minutes, then into the pyro they go. I keep reading about others having issues. PErhaps its the pyro that hardens emulsion and helps. PErhaps others shuffle incorrectly.

I develop by inspection and with efke its easy as you can read the highlights by the green light well. Very well.

ALso, you need ribs on teh bottom of the tray to help you 'grab/slide' the bottom out from underneath. ALSO you must use nytril gloves or the film is too slippery.

FWIW I use efke pl100 in 7 x 17 and 8 x 10 along with other films....



For 8 x 10 I can do up to 8 at a time.

[tim atherton]

I've just been processing a hundred or so Efke 100 sheets and found that using a Jobo (or other similar type processing tank I suppose, i.e. unicolor) and Pyrocat - which I understand has the effect of a hardener - I'm getting no extraneous scratching

That is - no more scratching than the self imposed ones from misloading it in the holder or scraping the hanger against the film when it's going up to dry.... :(

[BOB MURPHY]

I use EFKE also in 4x5 and 5x7. I use a slosher for the 4x5 and a tray for 5x7. Maybe someone could tell me what BRUSH development is. THANKS:confused:

[Michael Kadillak]

If you have already worked out your exposure and development for Bergger film, wouldn't it make sense to continue using it as long as it is available? AFAIK, no Bergger product has been discontinued, and there is inventory. Bergger is certainly not closing down. I doubt they would be foolish enough to try to pass off another film made in another plant as "identical" to current Bergger films. Rather, they will come up with new names for new films.

It is my experience with Bergger 200 film that it you are printing with conventional silver paper at normal development it works just fine. If you need to go to N+ or print with any of the alt processes or Azo Bergger is incapable of building enough effective net image density to get the job done. Why? Because it simply is physically unable to build sufficient density as just like HP5, the density curve simply lays down and dies. If you plot this film curve up for yourself you will see what I am talking about.

My point is that one should select a film based upon what meets their photographic criteria not just who manufactures it. I feel that the best sheet films currently manufactured are T Max 400 and FP4+ because they build density for all photographic requirements with no excuses or shortcomings. Not far behind are the Efke emulsions that are obviously less expensive but have the fragility issues that need to be dealt with.

Efke can be managed to product remarkable images but is highly susceptible to increases in base fog as a function of time so keep it in the freezer until you are just ready to expose it if possible.

Cheers!