The New HP B9180 13x19 printer WOW WOW

[Ted Harris]

I try vry hard not to be overly enthusiastic about new products I am evaluating, certainly not before I have put them through a full shakedown cruise but in the case of the HP B9180 printer I am going to throw caution to the winds. This printer is just a solid joy to work with and, so far, produces outstanding results. This is HP's entry into the photo printer market to challenge the Epson 2400 and from waht I have seen so far it is a clear winner.

I first used the printer at our last Scanning Workshop at Midwest a few weeks ago. Jim Andracki set the printer up with no complications and the very first prints we made with no attempts at any heroic adjustments were excellent. During the workshop we tested the printer head-to-head against an Epson 3800 printing two black and white and one color image on both printers ... same file, same size, same paper, etc. Looking at the prints side-by-side there was absolutely no visable difference. Looking at them through an 8x loupe you could see slight subtle differences. Just differences, nothing that said this one is beetter than than just tiny differences.

Since then I have been running a lot of paper through the printer,mostly 8x10's until recently to check how the results looked versus proof prints I have on file for prints that were eventually printed 11x14 or larger on my Epson 4800 or on an Iris printer. Again, excellent, solid images. Black & White prints show solid deep deep blacks and images hold detail well into the darker shadows. I have been using Ilford Pearl, Hanemuhle Fine Art Pearl, Hanemuhle Photo Rag Smooth and HP's own Soft Glossy (manufactured for them by Hanemuhle I am told). I will also be testing the printer with some Red River, Crane and Moab papers over the next month. The printer has an 8 ink pigmet ink set with no changes from matte to gloss required. Also, different from Epson, the print heads (one for each two colors) are user replacable. Finally the inks are slightly less expensive than Epson inks

My initial impressions are that this printer is built like a tank, far more solid and precise than I have come to expect from consumer printers. My only complaint so far and it is a minor one is that some heavier papers that use the single sheet 'specialty tray' have to be loaded from the back of the printer and pulled through. No big thing, but not documented by HP.

HP has said they are going after Epson head on and if this printer is an example of what the larger Z3100 wide format professional printers can do then they are doing it right. Saving the best for last, the B9180 sells for as low as $505 (Amazon) or $544 from B&H (and it was 506 from them last week so who knows what's next). Midwest will have them in stock next week. This is the same price as the Epson R1800 and some 230 to 270 less than the 2400, WOW. At a price like this it is a real Epson killer. Given that, in our quick tests, it preformed on a par with and is built better than the 3800 I'd say it is competes well with this machineas well ... as long as you can live with the smaller output (no, it doesn't have a roll feeder either).

I'll keep posting bits and pieces as I continue to work with the printer and the full review will be in the May-June issue of View Camera. I also have a Canon 5000 in the studio now and will say something about it in the next few weeks. An HP Z3100 will be arriving for a 4 month shake down cruise in 3 weeks or so and then I can look at the Canon v. the HP v. the Epson wide formats.

For the moment I strongly recommend that anyone thinking of purchasing a 2400 or an 1800 or a 3800 (unless they need the size) think hard about this new HP printer.

[erie patsellis]

Ted, I had the same reaction with the first print out of my 8750 almost 4 months ago, and it hasn't faded yet, even after >300 prints. I'm a wet darkroom kinda guy, but living in an apartment makes setting up my 8x10 enlarger just not possible, at least with digital output, I can still shoot LF and output fine art quality prints.


erie

[sanking]

Ted,

I think some people would be interested to know if this printer would work for prnting digital negatives for alternative processes. The dye ink sets of previous HP and Canon printers did not produce enough UV blocking to be useful for digital negatives. It would be intersting to know how the pigment ink printers perform in this regard. Would you be intersted in working with me to test this?

Sandy

[Eric Biggerstaff]

Great to know and thanks Ted, I look forward to reading the complete review in View Camera.

Eric

[Matt Miller]

I don't have printer yet, but am in the market. How does the HP ink cost compare to Epson's?

[David Karp]

. . . Finally the inks are slightly less expensive than Epson inks . . .

[Brian Ellis]

Thanks for the mini-review Ted. It's good to see some competition for Epson, should be good for all of us. Personally, however, I plan to stick with Epson, at least until ther are some reports from long-term users. My first digital products were both HP, a printer and a 35mm film scanner. Both malfunctioned after a couple years of light use and the advice I got from HP tech support was "throw 'em away, it's cheaper to buy new ones." OTOH, when we moved from Florida to Oregon the movers threw my Epson 2200 in a box upside down with the cartidges still in it. It stayed that way for a couple months in my garage during a Central Oregon winter. When I was finally able to set up my computer system I opened the box, plugged in the printer, and it worked flawlessly as it does to this day. So my next printer will be a 3800, maybe if HP is still around and making excellent printers for photographers four or five years from now I'll look at one as a replacement for the 3800.

[Bruce Watson]

The thing is, a higher quality output would get me to take notice. Sharper, wider gamut, better shadow detail, more versitile with use of substrates, faster, ... that kind of thing.

But you don't seem to be saying that it makes a better print. Just that the printer is cheaper. This doesn't make me go "WOW WOW" unfortunately. One of the worst and most overused phrasing is marketing is "just as good as" if you know what I mean.

That said, I look forward to a complete review. Maybe better prints or better printing will be in there somewhere.

[Bill_1856]

Ted, as I recall, the first comment you made to me at the Fall Workshop critique was "get rid of that #$%$# HP printer and get an Epson." My, how times change.

[Ted Harris]

Bill, that was an older printer. I don't remembeer the model number but it was vastly different than this printer and the "Z" series. With the introduction of the B9180 and the Z series printers HP has decided to play for real in the fine art photo printing market and take on Epson. All of their preivous printers have either been half-hearted attempts or no attempt at all, rather just consumer oriented machines.

And in the digital world things change, sometimes way too rapidly.

[Ted Harris]

Bruce, I am hesitant to say "better than" because I've only done a few one-on-one comparisons. Further, when it comes to prints "bettr than" can be a very subjective statement.

My initial point is that if this meets your needs and you are in the market for a printer you can save on initial outlay and on the cost of consumables; as someone who prints thousands of sheets of paper in smaller sizes cost considerations are very important.

More to come.

[erie patsellis]

Ted,
interestingly, I've compared a few prints from my 8750 with a couple of epson prints when I was first looking for a printer. To my eyes, the out of the box prints (i.e. no QTR, aftermarket inks, etc.) the HP was dead neutral to very, very slightly warm. The HP output was dead on with the image on my calibrated monitor, using HP's paper, I have since tried Kodak's professional papers and Ilford and found that the Kodak paper was ideal for my tastes, giving a slightly warmer tone, while the Ilford output (using Ilford's profiles) was indistinguishable from the HP paper. I find that I don't have to work very hard to get a print that is exactly what I visualized, a vastly different experience from my wet darkroom work, I may use 8-10 sheets of paper printing a negative zeroing in on the perfect image, until I get what I saw in my minds eye when I shot the image. I only wish that the 8190 was available when I bought my printer, as the individual ink cartridges probably offset what little cost difference there is in the printers, especially if you print larger volumes.


erie

[Jeremy Moore]

Ted, any word on a 17" vivera printer coming down the pipeline?

[Rider]

Price seems to have gone up to $595 (Amazon) and $630 (B&H).

That's not supposed to happen, is it?

[Ted Harris]

My understanding from HP was that the prices we saw through the end of March were basically introduductory prices that were going to disappear in April. There will, according to HP, still be lower prices available as show specials (e.g. printers purchased at PMA, View Camera Conference, Photo Plus, etc.). Having said that, Sandy got one for under 500 a few weeks ago and I still see some price in the the low $500 range.

[sanking]

My understanding from HP was that the prices we saw through the end of March were basically introduductory prices that were going to disappear in April. There will, according to HP, still be lower prices available as show specials (e.g. printers purchased at PMA, View Camera Conference, Photo Plus, etc.). Having said that, Sandy got one for under 500 a few weeks ago and I still see some price in the the low $500 range.

I have had the HP 9180 here for about three weeks and am impressed, to put it mildly. I made some 20+ monochrome prints on 11X17 enhanced matte paper this past weekend and I could not have been more pleased. The prints had great apparent sharpness, superb tonal qualities and absolutely neutral tone. And this was with the very simple to use Photoshop automated driver where I just checked a few boxes. Time will tell, but at this point this is looking like some of the best money I have ever spent.


Sandy King

[Giacomo GIRINO]

Hello,
any experience/opinion on the much rumored pizza wheels marks that some suffer with this printer?
Lino

[Ted Harris]

Lino,

I have followed the discussions on pizza wheel marks with interest for three months. I have also noted that in almost every case there has been a fix to the problem. Further not e that it is a small numbr of very vocal folks making most of the complaints.

For my part, and I have run several hundred sheets of paper through the printer testing it ... all sizes and types and from both the tray and the slot ... I have had no problems and I have been carefully looking for pizza wheel marks.

The only paper feed/marking problem I had was when I tried feeding a very heavy sheet of 13x19 paper through the tray and it got skewed and chewed up a bit ... my fault there, should hve known the paper was too heavy.

Generally, my experience has been the same as Sandy's; best sharpness I have seen from a printers and very nice neutral tones. One more point that Sandy didn't mention ... before he bought the printer he send me some color step tablet files to print on Pictorico film to test the B9180's value as a printer for digital negatives. It did an excellent job but sine that is his thing I will let him weigh in with the details.

[sanking]

In addition to a printer that would make nice neutral tone B&W prints I was also interested in the HP 9180 for making digital negatives for alternative printing. There are many good systems for making digital negatives but I have been using Mark Nelson's PDN system for a long time and want to continue to do so. However, PDN requires an ink set with good UV blocking, and the ink sets of current generation Epson printers are marginal with some processes.

The initial test that Ted sent me of a color palette printed on Pictorico indicated that the pigment ink set of the 9180 has very good UV blocking, which in theory should provide a fairly wide range of possibilities from which to pick a suitable color for printing digital negatives. By suitable I mean a color that would not only print with the right contrast, but that would also print smoothly, i.e. without a grit or sand look that you sometimes see in printing with certain color with UV processes. You also want a color that will dry fast on the OHP material, because if it does not you will get pizza wheel marks. At this point in my testing I am reasonably certain that the 9180 will meet my needs as it prints very smoothly with the green and red paths of the PDN system.

Regarding pizza wheel marks and the 9180, I have not seen them on any of the prints on paper I have made, nor have I seen them on Pictorico OHP.


Sandy King

[Ken Lee]

"PDN requires an ink set with good UV blocking, and the ink sets of current generation Epson printers are marginal with some processes".

Could you elaborate on that a little ? I am planning to make some digital negatives (for Pt/Pd prints under UV) using my Epson R2400. I figured I would print with black ink onto Pictorio.

Is that a good idea, or are certain ink colors better than others ?

[sanking]

Could you elaborate on that a little ? I am planning to make some digital negatives (for Pt/Pd prints under UV) using my Epson R2400. I figured I would print with black ink onto Pictorio.

Is that a good idea, or are certain ink colors better than others ?


You can use your R2400 for making digital negatives for pt./pd. However, you want to chose a color that matches the density range of your process, which can of course can vary from 1.2 to 2.2 with pt/pd depending on mix and the contrat controls you choose. Many people use straight palladium and need the higher number. I don't know what density value you will get with the R2400 if you print with black ink. With the 3800 the composite black gives a maximum density that is almost perfect for straight palladum. The R2400 may also, I just don't know. However, the composite black with the older Epson 2200 was about log 3.3. You could make a digital negative for a process with an ES of log 2.2 where the maximum density is 3.3, but it would require a very steep adjustment curve and would result in some loss of the 255 values in PhotoShop. It would work, but is not ideal.

There are quite a few people using the R2400 to make digitl negatives for pt/pd printing so there is no doubt but that it works. The question is finding the best color, be that some value of RGB or the composite black, that most closely matches the ES of pt/pd as you choose to work it.

Another approach some people are using is to control the output of the Epson printers with QTR or some other form of RIP. But I personally have not made digital negatives this way and can not offer any advice. There is quite a bit of discussion of digital negatives on the hybrid forum so you might want to check out that site. In fact, there are several people there who are using the R2400 to make digital negatives. http://www.hybridphoto.com/forums/

Sandy

[Paul Ewins]

I got bitten in the past by HP and vowed never to buy a printer from them again. It was an expensive A3 business printer that was working happily until the time that cartridges became impossible to find. A new model had been released which used slightly different cartridges. To make matters worse the cartridges were "chipped" and had an expiry date so you couldn't refill them and couldn't even stockpile them. Planned obsolesence at its worst.

[butterfly]

I have this printer, and whilst the output is the best I have seen at any price, superb on fine art paper with monochrome, I am experiencing a big problem, which HP are reluctant to help with or admit to.

Here's the scenario: I print a pic, and later the powersave mode kicks in. A day later I print a pic and it just queues up and then says 'printing stopped'. No matter what button I press the printer will not wake up! I have to disconnect all leads and reboot both computer (AppleMac) and printer. It then goes into reinitialisation (wasting ink?) and sometimes this works sometimes I have a few goes to get it to work!

It is highly frustrating to work with and wonder if anyone else has had this problem. I am wondering if it has anything to do with the power-save mode of the Apple, some software incompatibility with the Mac and printer or what!

I never had this problem with any other make of printer!

As I say *when* I can get it to work, output is superb and worth it..

Regards

Steve

[Ted Harris]

Seve,

Not a problem that I have heard reported before and not one that I have had. I'd be happy to see if I can further help you isolate the problem if you contact me offline, preferably email and we can arrange a time for a phone conversation to see what we can do while both of us are sitting at computers with the printer nearby.

[Michael Graves]

I have this same problem with an HP laser printer I own. Open your system preferences, click on Printers and open the queue for the "downed" printer. Click on "Start Jobs" and all will be well. Don't know what signal the printer is sending back when it goes to sleep to cause the issue, and it's never been an annoying enough problem for me to spend much time tracking it down.


I have this printer, and whilst the output is the best I have seen at any price, superb on fine art paper with monochrome, I am experiencing a big problem, which HP are reluctant to help with or admit to.

Here's the scenario: I print a pic, and later the powersave mode kicks in. A day later I print a pic and it just queues up and then says 'printing stopped'. No matter what button I press the printer will not wake up! I have to disconnect all leads and reboot both computer (AppleMac) and printer. It then goes into reinitialisation (wasting ink?) and sometimes this works sometimes I have a few goes to get it to work!

It is highly frustrating to work with and wonder if anyone else has had this problem. I am wondering if it has anything to do with the power-save mode of the Apple, some software incompatibility with the Mac and printer or what!

I never had this problem with any other make of printer!

As I say *when* I can get it to work, output is superb and worth it..

Regards

Steve

[tim atherton]

I am wondering if it has anything to do with the power-save mode of the Apple,
Steve

hmm - there's you problem right there... :-)

[Bill_1856]

Apparently Mike Johnston has test articles on the B9180 in the latest issues of Bland and White Magazine. I haven't read them yet, but from a comment he made on his website (The Online Photographer), he had several problems with it.
I have been using HP computer and printer for several years, and they seem to be as helpful about any problems as the old phone company (remember Ma Bell?).

[Bill_1856]

Still hot to trot on the B9180, Ted?

[Ed Richards]

I have a Designjet 130 and have been very pleased with HP service, which has included three swaps so far. Of course I would be even happier to never have to use their service, but I am resigned to big printers having problems.

[sanking]

Still hot to trot on the B9180, Ted?

I just read Ted's review of the B9180 in View Camera and am in substantial agreement with his assessment of the machine. Out of the box this printer makes some of the most neutral tone B&W images I have ever seen. I have owned several wide-carriage Epson printers and none of them were capable of such neutral tone prints as the 9180 without special third party software and/or special inks sets such as Piezography.

As Ted mentioned in his article in VC, the ink set of the B9180 also has very good UV blocking, which makes this printer a good choice for making digital negatives for alternative printing with the PDN system of Mark Nelson.

Sandy King

[tim atherton]

Would you put the two wider format HP models in this same class (especially, but not only, in terms of grayscale printing?)

Z2100 and Z3100 I think? - are they essentially just bigger better versions of the B9180 (I know one has more inks)

are they newer, older or basically the same technology?

[sanking]

Would you put the two wider format HP models in this same class (especially, but not only, in terms of grayscale printing?)

Z2100 and Z3100 I think? - are they essentially just bigger better versions of the B9180 (I know one has more inks)

are they newer, older or basically the same technology?


Tim,

If that question is directed to me, I don't know the answer. I have some experience with wider format Epson printers, but not with the HP Z2100 and Z3100.

The great plus for me of the B9180 is that it makes great nuetral tone B&W prints out of the box with the HP driver and the native ink set. The 13" carriage Epsons I have used (2200, 2400), with the Epson drivers, are less capable in this regard.


Sandy King

[Kirk Gittings]

Would you put the two wider format HP models in this same class (especially, but not only, in terms of grayscale printing?)

Z2100 and Z3100 I think? - are they essentially just bigger better versions of the B9180 (I know one has more inks)

are they newer, older or basically the same technology?

They are newer technology with all the associated problems. Do a search on Luminous Landscape for the sorted history of their premature release. It was not pretty. Personally I would even now give HP more time to sort out the problems. I am tired of paying good money to be a beta tester.

[Oren Grad]

Kirk, MR sounds pretty happy with the Z3100, if his writeup is any indication. In that class of printer, it's the Canon iPF5000 that's been giving all the headaches...

[Kirk Gittings]

Oren,

As, I am in the market for a new printer and interested in this printer in particular I have followed all postings with great interest since its release. Problems posted compared to Epson 3800 run 10 to 1. Don't care as much what MR writes as the rank and file.

[Oren Grad]

Then you'll know much more than I do.

10:1? < gulp > That's really unfortunate...

[sanking]

Oren,
Don't care as much what MR writes as the rank and file.

Who is MR?

Sandy King

[Oren Grad]

Sandy, it's just Michael Reichmann - sorry to be cryptic.

[Kirk Gittings]

I am looking forward to serious competition to Epson. HP and Canon are right there on the cusp. It will be good for all of us, but at the moment.......I have two friends, one who bought the HP Z3100 two weeks ago and has spent around 18 hours on the phone with customer support. The other friend bought a 3800. We installed it, had it up and running in 20 minutes, and in the first month have not had to contact support once. HP will get there with their larger machines, but personally I am still leary.
Kirk

[PViapiano]

I am seriously considering the 3800...printing size, quality, cartridge size all add up to state of the art at this price point.

[Steve Clark]

I don`t understand all the HP9180 bashing, as I`ve only had a single problem, in that one sheet of paper jammed one time. Other than that , it makes beautiful prints.

[Kirk Gittings]

There has not been a single instance of HP9180 bashing. You should actually read the thread. All the problems refered to were related to the HP Z3100.

See:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?act=Search&CODE=show&searchid=b22c63ed829b36eb27a0f9b79a59115c&search_in=posts&result_type=topics&highlite=hp+z3100

[erie patsellis]

Interestingly, I've had zero problems with my 8750 printing somewhere around 50 or so 13x19's and at least 100 8x10's, other than the outrageous price of the 102 cartridge. Anybody have a good source for aftermarket inksets? I have at least a dozen 102 lying here with caps on that I'd hate to just toss.


erie

[Gordon Moat]

I know a few places running an HP DesignJet 130, and a few others with the DesignJet 5000 and 5500. All those seem to run with few problems and little maintanence.

Tough to browse through all the chaff at LL, though it seems a firmware update on the Z3100, and some Windows XP problems are the biggest complaints (other than someone complaining about the price dropping from launch until a few months after launch).

I almost wonder about the target audience of the newest Z series from HP. With the materials I get about professional products from HP, only the DesignJet 130, 90, or 5500 series (and a few other dye ink based machines) are included. It almost seems like the pigment ink based wide printers are intended for well funded enthusiasts, not proofing, pre-press, nor printing businesses . . . at least not yet.

I know a couple people working at the local HP wide printer division. While I did not get a direct verbal response about it, the general feeling I got was that the move into pigment based inks was more a push of a marketing direction, in that some potential customers were still biased against any dye based ink printers.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio (http://www.allgstudio.com)

[sanking]

BTW, in the article in View Camera it was mentioned that there are some third party RIPs available for the HP B9180. Ted, or anyone else, could we have some more information on this now?


Sandy King

[Steve Clark]

Okay Kirk, not the 9180 in particular, but HP in general. Feel better now?

[Kirk Gittings]

Steve,
Nor was there any HP bashing in general. Show me one. There were simply cautionary comments about the Z3100 and a couple of random comments by other people about a couple of other HP printers. How does reporting problems constitute HP bashing? You should hear me comment on some of the stupidity of Epson or Adobe or Kodak or Canon or Microtek or any of the innumerable expensive photo products I have bought that were not as advertised or simply did not work on delivery like PS3 Bridge for instance. Of what use is the web if we don't use it to inform.

Because you bought a piece of equipment by some manufacturer which works doesn't mean you have to become a cheerleader for their whole product line and dismiss all critics as HP bashers.

[Pete Watkins]

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear! Back to reality lads, set up a darkroom. Once all your problems are sorted with these printers Microsoft will bring out a replacement for Vista and the manufacturers will refuse to produce drivers and all your equipment will be redundant. In my opinion one of the great advantages of L.F. is that the equipment does not become redundant. I can still use lenses made over one hundred years ago, you can buy and use ancient cameras, that's why I'm here, going semi-digital is really sad! Not to mention the fact that you're being manipulated into an imferior printing option by manufacturers with little or no loyalty to their customers and you're also crapping on those of us who are trying to preserve the photographic traditions of the last hundred years by using a proven medium to record our images.
Best wishes,
Pete.

[Steve Clark]

Hi Pete!
I`m with ya on the planned obsolesence of the electronics world. The majority of my work is done on a 1938 5x7 with lenses from both the past and present. The darkroom in the basement doesn`t share space with anything else. I find the digital quick and convenient for snapshots, and for my kids school projects, sports, etc. At this point the HP 9180 has been very reliable, and quite sufficient for what I use it for.

[Doug Keyes]

I am looking forward to serious competition to Epson. HP and Canon are right there on the cusp. It will be good for all of us, but at the moment.......I have two friends, one who bought the HP Z3100 two weeks ago and has spent around 18 hours on the phone with customer support. The other friend bought a 3800. We installed it, had it up and running in 20 minutes, and in the first month have not had to contact support once. HP will get there with their larger machines, but personally I am still leary.
Kirk

Kirk,
I haven't heard of many reliability or other issues with the b9180.
As for the other HP printers, I've owned the z3100 for three months now. Called tech support once since and had things figured out immediately. Of course, we only hear the problems on the discussion forums. I've been reading them daily. It is usually the same 10 people with problems. There have been very few major problems if this is taken into the larger context of printers out there. As with all new technology, waiting is better than being a beta tester. From what I understand and have experienced the problems are mostly minor software issues (not print quality or hardware). These should be fixed soon as it is generally easier to fix software than hardware.
By the way, you can't really compare the 3800 to the z3100 in set-up time or any other way for that matter. One is a desktop printer, the other a large format printer with built-in spectrophotometer. Very different beasts.

[tim atherton]

Has anyone used one of these (or the bigger versions) with Silver Rag

The Epson K3 inks give no bronzing and virtually no gloss differential (which goes away completely with a light spray of Printguard)

How do the HP printers compare?

[Pete Watkins]

Hi Van Camper,
"Digital is now superior when it comes to print life". O.K. show us your 100 year old digi prints. If it ain't been proven it ain't a fact.
Best wishes,
Pete.

[Kirk Gittings]

Kirk, I haven't heard of many reliability or other issues with the b9180.

Come on guys. Once again. I never said anything about the B9180. I have no interest in this printer, have never seen one and never said or implied a single thing about it. The printer is too small to be of any interest to me. I'm sure it works fine. I was responding to a question about the Z3100 because someone asked. Jeez.


Kirk, can you give us a few examples why you believe in the 10:1 ratio you mentioned earlier. So far I've read a lot of good things from users, and the only problems being with the dark reds (a software upgrade was introduced, things improved but not perfect yet), some problems handling heavy papers (scratch marks). HP has over a dozen wide format printers for the commercial market, with far more experience then Epson. I am sure they will work the few bugs out. The fact that Epson was foolish enough to introduce another generation of printers without photo/matte black combined is enough reason to not want a Epson right now.

No, read Luminous Landscape. things have quieted down now, but there were many complaints to begin with, far more than the Epsons. If it were just internet complainers, where were they with the 3800? They were released about the same time.

Look I have NO brand loyalty. Whoever gives me quality equipment that works will get my business and I will switch brands in an instant. I use both PCs and Macs, I own both Canons and Nikons cameras, I shoot both LF and DSLR, I own Epson and Canon printers, I have recently owned Epson, Microtek, Canon and Nikon scanners. I USE WHAT WORKS WELL and dump it when something better comes out. I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST HP and will likely buy one of their printers in the near future when I am sure I will not become a beta tester for an unfinished product spending my money and endless hours trying to make a product work that was released too soon. Blindly defending a product line simply because one hates the competitior is misplaced loyalty. As far as I am concerned anyone with product loyalty to a major corporation is a fool.

The internet has afforded us the opportunity to see if products actually work before we buy them. All you have to do is be patient and see what people say who jump in to soon.

[Ted Harris]

As I recall, most of the comments on the z3100 related to the gamut and specifically to the way it rendered red. HP came out with a workaround that seems to have solved the problem from what I have read but I have no diect experience. I had hoped to have a z3100 in house to test at the same time I was testing the Canon 5000 so I could write an article/review on both printers at once. Alas, it didn't happen. The review of the Canon 5000 will be in the July-August issue of the magazine but I stil don't even know if I will have a z3100 in time to do an article for the September issue.

[seawolf66]

Mr: Ted Harris: Well I did somelooking around and found the following information:

#1=HP-B9180 is $624.95 and has 8 cartrages@31.95 each:#H38

#2=Epson# R 1800@$549.00[Rebat$50.00] has 8 cartrages@11.95 each

#3=Canon #PIXMA Pro 9000@426.99 [rebate$100.00] has 8 Cartrages$11.95

Why In anybodys name would I want to spend ,$125.00 more over epson and $197.96 over canon and HP their inks are $20.00 more?

since I am looking at getting a 13x19 printer and to me Money talks and everything else walks! so what does HP have and does better than the other two:
Respectfully:
Mr.Lauren MacIntosh

[tim atherton]

Mr: Ted Harris: Well I did somelooking around and found the following information:

#1=HP-B9180 is $624.95 and has 8 cartrages@31.95 each:#H38

#2=Epson# R 1800@$549.00[Rebat$50.00] has 8 cartrages@11.95 each

#3=Canon #PIXMA Pro 9000@426.99 [rebate$100.00] has 8 Cartrages$11.95

Why In anybodys name would I want to spend ,$125.00 more over epson and $197.96 over canon and HP their inks are $20.00 more?

since I am looking at getting a 13x19 printer and to me Money talks and everything else walks! so what does HP have and does better than the other two:
Respectfully:
Mr.Lauren MacIntosh

because for one thing, the comparable Epson printer is the 2400 not the R1800

you're comparing apples and oranges

(and if you do any greyscale/b&w printing at all, the Canon won't come close to the Epson 2400 or the HP)

[Christopher Perez]

It's amazing how passionate people are about their equipment. I don't recall watercolorists or oil or pastel artists being nearly as passionate about their brushes, papers, canvases and materials as some folks here are about their favorite brands of printers, cameras, or processes.

HP B9180 works straight out of the box. Further, I use Linux (Ubuntu versions 5.10 thru 7.04) and the Gimp. Talk about an "unsupported" workflow! Well, at least it's not Microsoft nor is it Adobe.

For color, the HP is brilliant. Coupled with Harman's Inkjet FB Mp the images are beyond my wildest expectations.

For B&W, I simply sample tones from something I like and apply them to my B&W. The Gimp is great for this. Platinum tints? No problem. Lith/Selenium? No problem. Gum over Palladium tints? No problem.

For digital internegs, the HP B9180 produces the best materials to work with that I've ever had the pleasure of printing from. No contrast agent required and every print is dead nuts "on"! for what I "see" and how I "see" it.

But make no mistake, anything we're talking about here is just a tool. HP has made producing images that please me much much easier than I ever expected or have experienced with Canon or Epson. Up to this point, at least.

YMWV!!! :) :) :)

[Marko]

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear! Back to reality lads, set up a darkroom. Once all your problems are sorted with these printers Microsoft will bring out a replacement for Vista and the manufacturers will refuse to produce drivers and all your equipment will be redundant. In my opinion one of the great advantages of L.F. is that the equipment does not become redundant. I can still use lenses made over one hundred years ago, you can buy and use ancient cameras, that's why I'm here, going semi-digital is really sad! Not to mention the fact that you're being manipulated into an imferior printing option by manufacturers with little or no loyalty to their customers and you're also crapping on those of us who are trying to preserve the photographic traditions of the last hundred years by using a proven medium to record our images.
Best wishes,
Pete.

Pete, while you are certainly entitled to your opinions and welcome to do how you please, why on Earth would you expect those of us with different opinions and choices to support your efforts at preserving the "tradition" whose time is gone?

This from someone who has had a traditional darkroom long enough back in the day and who is now establishing another one to play with, despite my signature...

[seawolf66]

Tim: after reading note,I went to the web and looked around, and I myself am scratching my hair as to the difference of the R1800 and the R2400 and since I lack the knowledge for gray scale w0rk, I'll pass on it: oh by the way This Apple does know how to compare things for him self: and he is a cheap skate?[VBG]

I am leaning toward the Epson R1800 for me or the canon : since my budget dictates, My purchasing power! thanks for your time,all:\\\Lauren


because for one thing, the comparable Epson printer is the 2400 not the R1800

you're comparing apples and oranges

(and if you do any greyscale/b&w printing at all, the Canon won't come close to the Epson 2400 or the HP)

[tim atherton]

the Epson R1800 and 2400 essentially use two different sets of ink.

Both use different sots of pigment based inks, one uses a gloss optimizer as well, and in addition to the CMYK inks uses a red and a blue ink.

The other uses LightC and LightM inks as well as the CMYK and also has two shades of grey.

The one will give you brighter and more vivid colours - good for graphics applications or Greek beach scenes. Additionally, you can forget printing decent black and white prints on it

The other will give you much more subtle tonal qualities and gradations in colour photographic prints and in addition will give excellent black and white prints

Most people see the 2400 as a photographic inkjet printer and is in the same family as the larger 3800/4800/9800 printers - same inksets and basic setups

Although some may use it for photogrpahic work, the R1800 is much more of a pigment based graphics printer.

The HP B9180 is HP's answer to and direct competitor with the Epson 2400

[sanking]

Mr: Ted Harris: Well I did somelooking around and found the following information:

#1=HP-B9180 is $624.95 and has 8 cartrages@31.95 each:#H38

#2=Epson# R 1800@$549.00[Rebat$50.00] has 8 cartrages@11.95 each

#3=Canon #PIXMA Pro 9000@426.99 [rebate$100.00] has 8 Cartrages$11.95

Why In anybodys name would I want to spend ,$125.00 more over epson and $197.96 over canon and HP their inks are $20.00 more?

since I am looking at getting a 13x19 printer and to me Money talks and everything else walks! so what does HP have and does better than the other two:
Respectfully:
Mr.Lauren MacIntosh

The comparable Epson printer to the HP B9180 is the 2400, not the R1800. The R1800 with the Epson ink set is vastly inferior to the HP B9180 for monochrome printing. You could set the R1800 up with Piezography inks if monochrome printing is what you want, but for printing both monochrome and color the HP B9180 has it all over the R1800.

Also, the HP ink cartridges contain 27ml of solution. Just curious if you know how much ink the Epson cartridges hold? I believe the HP inks may be more expensive than the Epson inks but not by as much as your figures suggest. And even if they are a lot more expensive they rate much higher that the Ultrachrome ink set for stability.



Sandy King

[Jeremy Moore]

I myself am scratching my hair as to the difference of the R1800 and the R2400

The 1800 uses dye inks while the R2400 uses pigment inks. Dye inks are much less stable thank pigment inks in terms of permanence.

[Jeremy Moore]

Also, the HP ink cartridges contain 27ml of solution. Just curious if you know how much ink the Epson cartridges hold?

Sandy King

I want to say the Epsons have ~15mL of ink in each cart if I remember from when we popped one open to measure a while ago.

[Kirk Gittings]

Very Interesting.... I just received an email from HP customer support asking me what my issues are with the Z3100 and Z2100 printers. Of course I don't even own an HP printer and that is what makes this communication extremely unusual. I have simply been cautioning people on this forum about buying one because of numerous postings of issues with the Z3100 on Luminous Landscape. It appears that they are monitoring the various forums and being very proactive about these issues. I find that very impressive. I can't imagine any other large company doing this. Cudos.

[Jim Jirka]

Jeremy,
The 1800 uses pigment inks.

[Jeremy Moore]

Jeremy,
The 1800 uses pigment inks.

Yep, you're correct, Jim. It's just the new Epson 1400 which uses the dye inks... my mistake!

[audioexcels]

So how are these printers being discussed compared to a print off of a mega-buck Fuji machine? I know the biggest print a Fuji can make is something like 12X16?, but say we compare even an 8X10 print of a Fuji Frontier and one from the HP, will their be a difference? Is one better than the other? If the HP is clearly superior to a Fuji Frontier, I'd have to put my money into one...

Thanks for any advice!

[Gordon Moat]

I don't think it would be possible to define better, when comparing a continuous tone (chemical) print to any inkjet print. While inkjet can simulate continuous tone, it will always appear slightly different than a chemical print.

With a home inkjet system, you are the step in the quality chain. A lab running a Frontier (or Durst, Chromira, LightJet, et al) is only as good as the people running the equipment. In other words, a poorly run high dollar chemical printing machine can give poorer results than a well run home inkjet system . . . these machines have too much adjustment range; money spent is not a guarantee of quality.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
A G Studio (http://www.allgstudio.com)

[Ron Marshall]

So how are these printers being discussed compared to a print off of a mega-buck Fuji machine? I know the biggest print a Fuji can make is something like 12X16?, but say we compare even an 8X10 print of a Fuji Frontier and one from the HP, will their be a difference? Is one better than the other? If the HP is clearly superior to a Fuji Frontier, I'd have to put my money into one...

Thanks for any advice!

This is what West Coast Imaging says about inkjet versus Chromira:

http://www.westcoastimaging.com/wci/page/services/printlab/coloruploads.htm

[Bruce Watson]

So how are these printers being discussed compared to a print off of a mega-buck Fuji machine? I know the biggest print a Fuji can make is something like 12X16?, but say we compare even an 8X10 print of a Fuji Frontier and one from the HP, will their be a difference? Is one better than the other? If the HP is clearly superior to a Fuji Frontier, I'd have to put my money into one...

I've got an image that I had printed by my local prolab on their LightJet (Kodak endura paper, semi-gloss finish). I printed the same image on an Epson 2200 (at least one generation behind the HP B9180 printer). I used the custom ICC profile supplied by the lab for their LightJet (they said they make a new profile for every batch of paper). I used the generic ICC profile supplied by Hahnemuhle for an Epson 2200 printing on Hahnemuhle photorag (a smooth matte paper).

The image in question has, among other things, vivid emerald green leaves (spring time), wet (it was raining), and at dusk. The dark green certainly puts a hurtin' on the gamut. I adjusted saturation of the image file to put the dark greens on the edge of the gamut for the respective printer/paper.

The results were surprising. I fully expected the Lightjet to win, if nothing else because of the glossy paper and the custom profile. Yet, the Lightjet print was fairly dull and lifeless while the Epson print is fairly lively, and certainly had better dark greens. This is especially true in the lighter and less saturated parts of the prints, which was really surprising to me.

So... I don't know how you define "superior." But I suspect that inkjet printers exceeded the gamut of photopaper printers a while ago.

[devalier]

The thing is, a higher quality output would get me to take notice. Sharper, wider gamut, better shadow detail, more versitile with use of substrates, faster, ... that kind of thing.

But you don't seem to be saying that it makes a better print. Just that the printer is cheaper. This doesn't make me go "WOW WOW" unfortunately. One of the worst and most overused phrasing is marketing is "just as good as" if you know what I mean.

That said, I look forward to a complete review. Maybe better prints or better printing will be in there somewhere.

Are we talking about the same HP9180? It seems you are talking about a recent release, but I bought mine a year ago in Sweden. Is it only now available in the U.S. market? The hp.com site lists my same model, so I can describe a year's use. I print only 5-10 prints per week, both in A3 and A4 format.

Bruce, I purchased the printer after reading an article by Joel Meyerowitz in a 2006 American Photo magazine. He was reprinting his negatives with a Design Jet 130 and although he didn't use WOW WOW he did describe the better color range of the DJ130 with Vivera pigment inks on HP's Advanced Photo Paper. In his humble opinion the new HP printers were superior to any he had used in the past and superior to traditional chemical color printing. If it is good enough for Joel, I figured it was good enough for me, especially for the price (WOW WOW). After reading reviews and seeing samples of the DJ130 and the B9180, I concluded the B9180 was as good if not better and I have been a happy user.

Like:
1. absolute color consistency (after a few mishaps). I now use only Advanced Photo Paper (not the HP glossy which HP claims is a better paper) and Hannemuhle Smooth Fine Art for B&W. Other papers will not give the same performance (an advantage of the Epsons)
2. it is cheap, all things considered
3. built in color monitor
4. Excellent software/drivers

Dislike:
1. the ink is expensive. Each print, considering paper + ink has averaged about 4 dollars US per A3 print over the last year.
2. if I don't use it for about a week, I will get banding or incorrect color handling. A simple nozzle cleaning fixes it, but it is annoying to waste the expensive pigment ink.
3. it is big, heavy and rattles my sturdy table when printing
4. In Europe it is very very difficult to get the HP38 ink. Fortunately, I travel, and when I find it I stock up on 2 full sets. Ordering inks from my local stockist is always a special order and takes about 30 days.

Learnings:
1. I let Photoshop handle the color (perceptual) and turn off all printer and windows color calibration. I feel this is a must.
2. I do not let the printer start printing until my PC has spooled the entire print job. There is an option to turn this off. It freezes the PC for a minute or two, but if you don't do this you will often get banding, sufficient to ruin the print (My 30USD print then costs me $10, a serious hit to profit)

The above sounds more negative than positive, but I am just highlighting the negatives for anyone hesitating to buy. I absolutely love this printer and would recommend it for anyone printing in both color and black and white. For color (comparing to a friend's prints on his R2400) I absolutely prefer the detail, tonal range and consistency of the HP9180. However, I have to admit my friend's Epson 2400 prints B&W which are more... "print like". My blacks are as detailed and "black" as his, my highlights are smooth and crisp, and I have no color casts, but his Epson seems to handle overall contrast in B&W with better smoothness. Sorry I can't describe it technically and I don't have one of his prints in front of me, but his B&W on the Epson is superior (although a very close call for anyone interested in printing frequently in color)

-- Just my two cents.

[Ted Harris]

devalier,

I wonder if the banding is an issue that is specifically related to Windows or to memory limitations? I have not had the problem when driving the printer from a relatively 'weak' Mac ... a Mac Mini duo core Intel machine with 2GB of RAM. No problems on more powerful machines either.

Secondly, while the per print costs may seem high they are definitely lower than the costs for the same size print on an Epson 2400.

[Bob McCarthy]

Since then I have been running a lot of paper through the printer,mostly 8x10's until recently to check how the results looked versus proof prints I have on file for prints that were eventually printed 11x14 or larger on my Epson 4800 or on an Iris printer. Again, excellent, solid images. Black & White prints show solid deep deep blacks and images hold detail well into the darker shadows. I have been using Ilford Pearl, Hanemuhle Fine Art Pearl, Hanemuhle Photo Rag Smooth and HP's own Soft Glossy (manufactured for them by Hanemuhle I am told). I will also be testing the printer with some Red River, Crane and Moab papers over the next month. The printer has an 8 ink pigmet ink set with no changes from matte to gloss required. Also, different from Epson, the print heads (one for each two colors) are user replacable. Finally the inks are slightly less expensive than Epson inks


Got the 9180, to play with. I have a designjet from HP so I'm somewhat familiar with HP way of doing things.

I'm getting terrible bronzing with the Hahn.. Fine Art Pearl. I love the surface and have tried all the available profiles (from HP and 3rd party) and none seem to solve the problem. B&W (black inko only) is dreadful.

Have you found a F/A paper with this surface that doesn't exibit the problem.

Ted appears to have gotten different results that I.

driver??, profile?? I am using Photoshop 3 to print with.

Bob

[Ted Harris]

Bob, I will have to dig to find my detailed notes but I know I was printing from PS CS2, not the 3 beta and I do know there is an issue with the HP driver and CS 3 ... and you get better prints when using their driver as opposed to going throough the Print w Preview routine.

[Bob McCarthy]

Thanks ted, I'm very pleased with the printer so far. I have a feeling it is a software issue..

None of the profiles are close enough to my color managed screen yet either.

My other printers are on the mark..

Bob

[Sylvester Graham]

Looks like this one's been discontinued... is there a second generation? Or an analogous model?

[Bill_1856]

Looks like this one's been discontinued... is there a second generation? Or an analogous model?

Great! I just bought two (cheap)! Story of my life.

[drew.saunders]

Looks like this one's been discontinued... is there a second generation? Or an analogous model?

Good riddance. I had one and hated it. Some folks had good luck with them, some folks, like me, got lemons, which conveniently died just after the warranty expired. HP did not make a quality product or stand behind this product.

I upgraded to an Epson 2880 and have been much happier.

[Oren Grad]

Looks like this one's been discontinued... is there a second generation? Or an analogous model?

There's no second generation, and they've also discontinued the set of art papers in 13x19 size that were marketed specifically for the B9180.

The B8850, which is a less expensive version, is still available, but it's being heavily discounted, suggesting that they're clearing that one out as well.

[Gem Singer]

Is it possible that HP is finally going to introduce the 17" desktop printer that has been rumored for more than a year?

Epson has been doing great with their new 3880.

HP needs a piece of that market.